Am I correct in understanding that a nib labelled as Iridium Point Germany, and appearing as a gold-colored base and stainless steel-colored tip is neither manufactured in Germany and, although the very tip may be iridium, is neither gold not stainless steel? I surely hope that the answer is not "It depends."
Iridium point Germany
- Thread starter JBarry
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hooked
Member
Here is a good article I read recently about the topic from Phil Dart:
www.beaufortink.co.uk
All about IPG fountain pen nibs - they are not all what you might think
From time to time I spot ill informed and sometimes frankly misleading explanations of so called IPG nibs on line, including on occasions, on websites run by people selling pens and nibs. It seems it's high time then, that one of the most widely perpetuated myths about fountain pen nibs is...
Oliver X
Member
While not every IPG nib is complete garbage, most are.
duncsuss
Member
excellent info. Thank you.
montmill
Member
"So in the pen industry, understand that iridium is a term used to refer to tipping material, even though there is usually no iridium present."
From the link above. If this is true it sounds like the pen industry needs to clean up it's act. Maybe just say "tip".
From the link above. If this is true it sounds like the pen industry needs to clean up it's act. Maybe just say "tip".
My entry into the world of fountain pens was via this exact kit. It came with a #5 fine IPG nib. I didn't know any better and used it happily as my only fountain pen for years.
Later in life I went pretty far down the rabbit hole on fountain pens (learning to do basic nib tuning and polishing, and amassing quite a collection of rather nice pens). One day I found this pen in a drawer, gave it a good cleaning, and inked it up. It was awful. Hard starting. Skippy. Not smooth, particularly scratchy in some directions. Dry. I couldn't believe I wrote with this pen for years.
But now I knew how to fix it. I disassembled the section, pulled out the nib and feed, deep cleaned everything, flossed the tines, spaced them out a hair to improve flow, re-aligned them (one tine was significantly higher than the other), and did a thorough polishing job with 12000 grit micromesh, then 0.3 and 0.1 micron mylar. The same treatment I'd given to most of my steel nibs, which never failed to significantly improve performance and make a nice writer. Under the loupe it looked good.
Though it fixed most of the directional scratchiness, the pen still just didn't feel smooth or nice to write with. It's been in the drawer ever since. I guess I got one of the regular old steel-tipped, low QC ones, I can only conclude that the tipping material (whatever it is) is inferior.
That pen is funny - it wasn't turned particularly well, I used friction polish which has long since gone dull, and all in all it was a good example of the kind of amateurish turning I was doing when I made it at age 16 or thereabouts. But the barrels are made of kingwood and have some excess diameter.
One of these days, I think it would be a fun project to strip it down, deep clean, re-turn to fix some of the geometry, do a good CA finish, and then put in a #5 Bock nib. Could be a really beautiful pen and a decent writer at that.
Later in life I went pretty far down the rabbit hole on fountain pens (learning to do basic nib tuning and polishing, and amassing quite a collection of rather nice pens). One day I found this pen in a drawer, gave it a good cleaning, and inked it up. It was awful. Hard starting. Skippy. Not smooth, particularly scratchy in some directions. Dry. I couldn't believe I wrote with this pen for years.
But now I knew how to fix it. I disassembled the section, pulled out the nib and feed, deep cleaned everything, flossed the tines, spaced them out a hair to improve flow, re-aligned them (one tine was significantly higher than the other), and did a thorough polishing job with 12000 grit micromesh, then 0.3 and 0.1 micron mylar. The same treatment I'd given to most of my steel nibs, which never failed to significantly improve performance and make a nice writer. Under the loupe it looked good.
Though it fixed most of the directional scratchiness, the pen still just didn't feel smooth or nice to write with. It's been in the drawer ever since. I guess I got one of the regular old steel-tipped, low QC ones, I can only conclude that the tipping material (whatever it is) is inferior.
That pen is funny - it wasn't turned particularly well, I used friction polish which has long since gone dull, and all in all it was a good example of the kind of amateurish turning I was doing when I made it at age 16 or thereabouts. But the barrels are made of kingwood and have some excess diameter.
One of these days, I think it would be a fun project to strip it down, deep clean, re-turn to fix some of the geometry, do a good CA finish, and then put in a #5 Bock nib. Could be a really beautiful pen and a decent writer at that.
I am by no means an expert on nib tuning, but I do know that if you over polish it will not write correctly. The micro-scratches on the tip are important to proper ink flow. If you have over polished it, use some slightly courser micromesh and back it off a bit.
Todd in PA
Member
I've known some of this for a while, but write with an IPG nib daily and find it to be quite good. Maybe I got lucky. I use an IPG pen in my booth as a tester and people are so impressed they buy their first fountain pen.
But overall this is terrible news. Maybe half my customers get home and have a terrible experience with skipping and scratchiness. I hate to think about that.
I like to make and sell the DAYACOM kits with Jowo nubs. But you can't find those anymore.
PSI and EB both have their flagship pens with IPGs. I emailed EB about upgrade nibs a while back and got no reply. They sell their Diamond Knurl as a rollerball, and then $7-10 more for the fountain section with IPG nib.
Is there anywhere to go with those that doesn't make the FP upgrade wildly more expensive? The article suggests that a block nib will swap out seamlessly. Can anyone confirm for PSI or DKnurls? Id like to be confident the buyer of my pen is going to have a positive experience.
Thanks.
Todd in PA
But overall this is terrible news. Maybe half my customers get home and have a terrible experience with skipping and scratchiness. I hate to think about that.
I like to make and sell the DAYACOM kits with Jowo nubs. But you can't find those anymore.
PSI and EB both have their flagship pens with IPGs. I emailed EB about upgrade nibs a while back and got no reply. They sell their Diamond Knurl as a rollerball, and then $7-10 more for the fountain section with IPG nib.
Is there anywhere to go with those that doesn't make the FP upgrade wildly more expensive? The article suggests that a block nib will swap out seamlessly. Can anyone confirm for PSI or DKnurls? Id like to be confident the buyer of my pen is going to have a positive experience.
Thanks.
Todd in PA
duncsuss
Member
I've never heard this - can you point me at your source so I can look deeper into it? Thanks!
duncsuss
Member
Check with Phil Dart at Beaufort Inks (UK). He is a Bock reseller and has a variety of nib housings that will adapt Bock to those kit sections where it isn't a seamless switch. He answers emails, don't be afraid to ask him if you can't find what you want to know on his web site.
I took a class in basic nib care & tuning at the San Francisco Pen Show last year. Sunny Koh (from Singapore) was the instructor.
duncsuss
Member
Interesting. I took Richard Binder's nib tuning and smoothing workshop when he presented at a local pen group some years ago - his target seemed to be "smoothest possible", unless I misunderstood what he taught us.
Sonny wasn't saying not to smooth it or that it needed to feel rough or scratchy, just cautioned against over polishing.
I claim no special expertise and certainly haven't taken a class from a respected nibmeister. But every steel nib I've ever polished using 12000 micromesh, then 0.3, then 0.1mm mylar, has written noticeably better after the polishing. With the exception of my junky IPG nib haha.
I have swapped in JoWo #6 (Conklin and Goulet branded) nibs in place of the stock nibs on an El Grande kit. I only swapped the nib - the kit feed and housing stayed. It was a significant upgrade and worked no fuss. Unfortunately the cap seal in at least that kit pen (and I suspect most or all kit pens) is not very good. If I didn't write with it every few days or so, it would dry out. As the kind of person who keeps a bunch of pens inked and in rotation, that didn't really cut it, so I haven't used that pen in quite some time.
I'm in the process of designing a fun segmented semi-kitless pen that I will do a closed end on. The last theoretical hurdle for me is what I can do to get a good cap seal that allows the pen to sit unused for a few weeks without drying out.
I have swapped in JoWo #6 (Conklin and Goulet branded) nibs in place of the stock nibs on an El Grande kit. I only swapped the nib - the kit feed and housing stayed. It was a significant upgrade and worked no fuss. Unfortunately the cap seal in at least that kit pen (and I suspect most or all kit pens) is not very good. If I didn't write with it every few days or so, it would dry out. As the kind of person who keeps a bunch of pens inked and in rotation, that didn't really cut it, so I haven't used that pen in quite some time.
I'm in the process of designing a fun segmented semi-kitless pen that I will do a closed end on. The last theoretical hurdle for me is what I can do to get a good cap seal that allows the pen to sit unused for a few weeks without drying out.
Todd in PA
Member
I can't believe there is not more concern about this on IAP.
Does it not mean that anyone with some knowledge about nibs is taking a hard pass on kit pens? Good grief!
I wish I didn't know. It does not make me very proud of my product.
Does it not mean that anyone with some knowledge about nibs is taking a hard pass on kit pens? Good grief!
I wish I didn't know. It does not make me very proud of my product.
In my experience, a lot of people talk about nibs and whatnot as if the housing and/or section threads are some hard barrier to interchangeability. Yes, there are competing standards there.
But in almost every case I've ever tried, a #5 Bock nib (just the metal nib part itself, not referring to the feed, housing, or section) is a #5 nib is a #5 nib. It is not difficult to slide the nib and feed out of whatever housing or section it finds itself in and replace it with a different, equivalent nib. They're generally press fit. The entire convention of #5 and #6 nibs prevalent in Bock and JoWo nibs is referring to the diameter of the radius built into the nib.
I suspect I could keep my same kit feed and housing that came with my old IPG nib in my Kingwood pen, and slide in a #5 Bock nib no problem, and have an immediate and significant improvement in writing experience. One of these days I'll get around to trying it out, and I'll be sure to post
But in almost every case I've ever tried, a #5 Bock nib (just the metal nib part itself, not referring to the feed, housing, or section) is a #5 nib is a #5 nib. It is not difficult to slide the nib and feed out of whatever housing or section it finds itself in and replace it with a different, equivalent nib. They're generally press fit. The entire convention of #5 and #6 nibs prevalent in Bock and JoWo nibs is referring to the diameter of the radius built into the nib.
I suspect I could keep my same kit feed and housing that came with my old IPG nib in my Kingwood pen, and slide in a #5 Bock nib no problem, and have an immediate and significant improvement in writing experience. One of these days I'll get around to trying it out, and I'll be sure to post
Todd, I have several kit fountain pens on my desk that I use regularly. They are pens that I made before getting into kitless pens. They range from a basic Atrax fountain pen up to some of the Jr pens with better nibs. They all write just fine. Have I adjusted the tines for alignment, yes, but no Nib Meister work. Some that have felt scratchy, I get a piece of a brown paper grocery sack and with the pen inked up, write figure eights. You would be surprised how much difference that can make.
My recommendation is that if you are making fountain pens, kit or kitless, make sure you at least dip test it before selling/gifting it. Learn to adjust the tines for alignment and some basic smoothing with the brown grocery sack trick. That way you know it writes well before you sell or gift it.
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Bope
Member
I have had good luck swaping out kit nibs with Jowo nibs. I have found a couple kits that actually use Jowo threading so I can swap the whole unit. Some just get nibs changed others the nib and feed will fit the kit housing.
Todd in PA
Member
The idea that I would spend $13.95 (or more) on a diamond knurl rollerball, then $7.95 (or more) on a fountain pen section, then replace the nib with a $15-$25 brand name nib seems unreasonable.
Prior to reading this thread, I was planning to use the diamond knurl as one of my go-to pens with flexible roller/fountain options. Now I'm thinking that isn't the path to be on.
Prior to reading this thread, I was planning to use the diamond knurl as one of my go-to pens with flexible roller/fountain options. Now I'm thinking that isn't the path to be on.
NJturner
Member
I took a custom pen class with Jim Hinze recently at the Manassas MATES event and the subject of a nib drying out was discussed. Jim is a fan of reducing the inner diameter of the cap of the pen to lower the amount of trapped air in the cap using the thinking that would help the pen to stay inked longer. I agree with him, in that I know that a few pens I have close very tight, yet when opened, they are dried out, so the airspace within the cap had to be somewhat of a factor. I've begun doing a step drill with a step down in diameter for the nib area to reduce the captured air space. Jim's mandrels are set up this way, but I'm trying a little more aggressivea step down than his hoping there is room for the nib and less air. Time will tell if this is effective for controlling the ink dry, but I can say it has led to more options for shaping the cap!
I do this very thing.
My caps are step drilled with three different diameters. In addition to reducing the air space, it also allows me to get more taper on the end of the cap.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
That depends on who your customer will be.
Sophisticated fountain pen users are not inclined to buy "no-name" nibs. They are looking for their favorite and willing to spend several hundred dollars or more for a pen that suits their wishes.
Art and Craft show buyers usually are looking for a functional pen. They also rarely know how to write with a fountain pen--so they will exert more pressure on the nib, which mostly negates the advantage of one nib over another. To this customer, if shown how to "tune" the nib so there are no sharp edges, the writing experience will be pleasant. They will also not expect to pay several hundred dollars--so the pen matches their budget.
I can say I have sold (at retail) MANY fountain pens with "no-name" nibs and I have rarely had a complaint. But, when I did get a complaint, I was able to tune the nib to the satisfaction of the buyer--or give them a refund (I think this happened twice). YMMV!!
Yeah it really depends on your target market. I don't sell my pens, but there's a local woodturner who has a booth set up at every farmer's market around where I live. Nice guy. Sells a lot of what looks like rather hastily made slimlines. I think he asks $25-$30 for them.
You're probably not going to find clientele that is ready to drop $500 on a handmade fountain pen at the farmer's market. But if you somehow manage to tap into that market, then the cost of hardware like sections and steel nibs becomes almost negligible.
You're probably not going to find clientele that is ready to drop $500 on a handmade fountain pen at the farmer's market. But if you somehow manage to tap into that market, then the cost of hardware like sections and steel nibs becomes almost negligible.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
IF I sell you a Stradivarius violin, you will not be a better violinist!
Sell the tool that matches the user's skills.
BTW, when I did shows, I DID carry a half dozen solid gold niibs, in case I ever encountered a person who truly wanted one.
I still have them, they have appreciated nicely!!!
Sell the tool that matches the user's skills.
BTW, when I did shows, I DID carry a half dozen solid gold niibs, in case I ever encountered a person who truly wanted one.
I still have them, they have appreciated nicely!!!
I have a handful of pens (not turned pens, but modern and vintage factory-produced pens) with gold nibs. In general I prefer the gold nibs to steel nibs. They're a little bouncier, and they're also incredibly smooth writing. My Pilot 823 in particular is head and shoulders above every other pen I've ever written with, in terms of a smooth, silky writing experience. Worth the money IMO.
My understanding is that gold was chosen as a nib material back in the earlier days of fountain pens because of its resistance to corrosion, a necessary feature when using gall inks and the like. Nowadays, inks are less corrosive (generally), and stainless steel is probably just as good in terms of corrosion resistance as gold. I have a cheap steel nib pen that has had R&K iron gall ink (Salix) in it for years with no apparent negative effects.
I hear that steel is at least as good if not slightly better for making nibs, in terms of desirable qualities in a metal for the purpose. I am not educated enough on the finer points of metallurgy to argue one way or the other. But I could believe that the reason I like my gold nibs better might just be because the manufacturers put more effort into tuning an excellent writing experience when someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a pen. I could also believe that it just boils down to personal preference, and whether steel or gold is a "better" material for the job is more subjective than objective.
At any rate, I do hope to create some kitless pens in the coming years that are worthy of putting a $200 JoWo #6 14k gold nib into.
My understanding is that gold was chosen as a nib material back in the earlier days of fountain pens because of its resistance to corrosion, a necessary feature when using gall inks and the like. Nowadays, inks are less corrosive (generally), and stainless steel is probably just as good in terms of corrosion resistance as gold. I have a cheap steel nib pen that has had R&K iron gall ink (Salix) in it for years with no apparent negative effects.
I hear that steel is at least as good if not slightly better for making nibs, in terms of desirable qualities in a metal for the purpose. I am not educated enough on the finer points of metallurgy to argue one way or the other. But I could believe that the reason I like my gold nibs better might just be because the manufacturers put more effort into tuning an excellent writing experience when someone is spending hundreds of dollars on a pen. I could also believe that it just boils down to personal preference, and whether steel or gold is a "better" material for the job is more subjective than objective.
At any rate, I do hope to create some kitless pens in the coming years that are worthy of putting a $200 JoWo #6 14k gold nib into.
NJturner
Member
I make a bunch of pens - fountains, rollers, and ballpoint. The one common thing I find in people's comments about a pen is more the write-ability than any other thing. I go to craft shows or markets and see some really poorly made pens that people happily buy because they like the blank or ink color, or the 'cute' picture of a dog on it versus a discussion on its quality. They are usually quite satisfied and don't need to purchase a fine higher quality writing instrument in their minds. The return on a good quality, nicely writing refill seems to overcome any flaw in the pens creation. With fountains, most people outside of a specific pen show environment don't know how to write with it, or they have childhood memories of how messy it was so they turn away from them no matter how cheap or well made. All things considered, I make pens (all types) because it makes me happy. I spend a lot of time making them as perfect as I can because I like to. I don't usually sell them but instead give them away to admirers. Do they continue to get used? Who knows - but I do get a lot of smiles from the recipients.