I Messed Up !!

[jeff]

Well, I've screwed up the logo contest!

One of the logos does not meet one of the contest requirements, and I should have rejected it. I didn't notice it until a moment ago when I was getting ready to post all the logos with the poll results when the poll closes in a couple hours. While the particular rule is somewhat minor, all the other entrants were obviously careful to adhere to it.

I'm trying to decide how to handle it. In the event the errant logo wins, I could do any of the following:

Let it slide, which isn't particularly fair to the other entrants
Disqualify that logo and award the win to the 2nd place logo
Disqualify that logo and rerun the vote
Ask the entrant to modify the logo (if necessary)

I'm leaving the vote open until I have a solution to this.

Your thoughts appreciated!

 

[NGLJ]

How far out is it? If it's close then perhaps the rule can be modified for the future. How critical is this in terms of how the logos are used?

 

[bsshog40]

Maybe give the entrant 24 hrs to adjust what needs to be fixed. I presume this would change the appearance and a new vote would need to take place.

 

[magpens]

I think it would be quite justifiable to :-

Disqualify that logo and award the win to the 2nd place logo

 

[TonyL]

Follow the rules. Two honest mistakes were made. We all make them (ok, I just make them )

 

[MRDucks2]

IF the entrant wins AND
IF the errant logo is the obvious winner (as in not that close) AND
IF the error is minor and not gross (I am betting on aspect ratio) AND
IF the error is easily corrected

Let it win.

IF the contest is close OR
IF the error is gross OR
IF it is not easy to correct without significantly affecting the design

Throw the bum out.

IF it doesn't actually win it doesn't really matter.

 

[jttheclockman]

That is a tough call. Is the error something that helped enhance the design, then it should be disqualified because it is an unfair advantage. If it is an error that was basically just an oversight on their part then let it ride. Not sure if anyone here will even notice. I believe other contests there were errors because of dates or something so maybe go back and look how you handled those. Finally maybe just speak with the entries and ask them what they want to do.

 

[SteveJ]

Having run some contests here I know mistakes happen and we face the challenge of being fair to all concerned. If you let an entry which has broken the rules pass every other entry is penalized. Unless the winning entry receives a majority of the votes (51 percent) any of the other entries could potentially rise to win. The errant entry disrupts all votes.

I suggest either disqualifying the errant entry or allowing it to be fixed and taking another vote.

It just feels wrong to allow an entry which didn't follow the rules to impact the outcome.

 

[jeff]

All helpful comments! @MRDucks2 is correct, it's aspect ratio. That rule exists to make sure that the logo is not difficult to fit on a variety of things. The error is what I would call relatively minor. The requirement is 1.5:1 max, and the errant logo is 1.874:1, 25% over the limit.

My opinion is that changing the logo to make it compliant would not affect its "artistic intent" or "attractiveness", and so would not alter the outcome. My inclination is to move forward as-is, and take this as a lesson learned for future contests.

I think I'll sleep on it

 

[PreacherJon]

A rule was broken. Follow through with your original rules. That is unfair to everyone else. Your integrity in looking at you in the face.

 

[tomtedesco]

OMG. Jeff is human. Thank you for doing what you do for IAP, whatever you decide is good with me, don't lose sleep over it.

 

[jttheclockman]

You also have to look at this in another light. This is not a Bash contest where the winner means basically nothing to all of us but themselves. Yes you get to look at eye candy. But this contest will have an effect on us all because it represents us for the year. Now if the concept was the winner just let them correct if it does not alter the look. Have no idea what aspect ratio means and bet 90% people here do either. Jeff is human as we all are here and this will not be his last mistake here so we live and learn from it as we all do when making our little pens. I am sure all our lives go on. We are voting on the basic design and not on size. Let it roll.

 

[bsshog40]

If it's just the aspect ratio of the design, I see no reason for not just letting the entrant resize it. It shouldn't make any difference in artwork of the design. We are all just voting on the artwork and representation of the IAP logo anyway.

 

[NGLJ]

Having read the input it seems to me the real question is "was the faulty entry the winner?'.

If so then : Disqualify and make #2 the winner since they have followed the rules

If not the winner then: One of the other entries must be the winner - we have a winner

It seems that most people did not realize that one of the entries had not followed the rules any way and have voted on what they saw.

 

[1080Wayne]

Disqualifying and making second place the winner if the errant one won , effectively throws out all of the votes for it . There is no certainty that those voters would have agreed that second place should be the winner . Therefore , you have to go with the rules , in my view , or re-vote without the errant one .

 

[Edgar]

I agree with your inclination. Although it is technically a rules violation, it is not one that gives the entry an unfair advantage and it can be easily corrected to achieve the objective of that rule.

Speaking from my own experiences, there have been a number of puzzle entries that do not follow every little detail of my rules to the T, but I still accept the entry if I can clearly understand the intent of the entry and it does not give an unfair advantage to the entry.

 

[RKB]

Re-Size and Re-Vote

 

[johnjohnson42]

Adhering to the aspect ratio seems to be one of the challenges of the contest and by disregarding this rule (intentionally or not), it could have had an unfair advantage that made the logo more attractive and pleasing to the eye. If the questionable entry received the most votes, I would suggest to either re-size and re-vote OR make the runner-up the winner.

 

[CjG78]

Benefit of the doubt. Let them amend it

 

[monophoto]

Follow the rules. Two honest mistakes were made. We all make them (ok, I just make them )

You're not alone - I make them also!

Regarding the competition - logos exist to serve a purpose, and the various purposes that logo will serve impose constraints on the options available to the person who designs the logo. A logo that fails to meet the specified requirements cannot be used for its intended purpose.

The approach I would suggest is to let the members choose their favorite logo. If the flawed design is the not the chosen favorite, announce the winner and go on to the next project.

But if the flawed design is the chosen favorite, before announcing the results, contact the creator to give him'her a chance to modify the design to meet the requirements. If the design can be modified, declare it the winner. However, if the person who designed the chosen favorite is unable or unwilling to make the necessary changes, declare the second choice as the winner.

This reminds me of a situation several years ago when I was on the organizing committee for an annual event that funded high school science and math programs. As part of that event, we ran an annual contest in which high school art students were asked to design the logo to be used the following year, and the creator of the winning design also got a cash prize. The selection process was also a 'people's choice' arrangement. One year we had the situation where the chosen favorite was so graphically complicated that it couldn't be used as an advertising logo although it actually met all of the announced competition rules. Our solution was to recognize the designer of that logo as the winner (and recipient of the cash prize), but then we chose to not actually use it as our logo as had been originally promised.

 

[darrin1200]

I would let it run as is. I don't believe the aspect ratio error, of the design, would affect the voting. It is more of an administration item. It is even mentioned in the rules, that the winning design may be "tweaked" to fit the groups needs. Without trying, on the various items, we don't even know if it will have an effect.

In future I would make the ratio more of a guideline than hard rule.

Just my 2 cents. (I guess it would be a nickel now, as we don't use pennies any more) LOL

 

[NGLJ]

Having read the input it seems to me the real question is "was the faulty entry the winner?'.

If so then : Disqualify and make #2 the winner since they have followed the rules

If not the winner then: One of the other entries must be the winner - we have a winner

It seems that most people did not realize that one of the entries had not followed the rules any way and have voted on what they saw.

If the faulty entry was the winner and it is now allowed to be modified to fit within the rules the other entrants are being dis-advantaged. Who knows how the others would have been designed or perceived if they had not stuck to the rules. Sticking to the rules puts constraints on the design. Let's say more than one had not stuck to the rules and was not noticed. What would you do then?

 

[MRDucks2]

I believe that, at this time and based on the broad level of feedback it may be best to resize the errant entry and revote.

Had Jeff not brought it up, NO ONE on this forum would have known the difference. That, friends, in case you do not recognize it, is integrity.

I also expect that once the change is made, most people on this forum may not notice the difference.

The aspect ratio allows easier application on some objects (think curved surfaces in particular), prevents very odd shaped entries (long and thin, tall and narrow) and ensures it will fit in already defined design elements without clipping the edges (the software our suppliers use to make the products).

Aspect ratio is not something you would typical violate by fractions in order to gain an advantage. Our goal this year seemed to be to get more participation, some of the perspectives expressed may well be true but are also the true that will further drive participation down.

At this point we cannot logically eliminate it without a revote. I expect had anyone noticed prior to the vote it would have been mentioned to the entrant for a quick correction (and we are talking seconds to correct), and the design obviously has enough appeal to influence the outcome of the vote.

 

[NGLJ]

Ok let us now suppose that one of the other entrants does not consider this a fair outcome since they had stuck to the rules, and as a consequence withdraws their entry making a non-competition because the number is now less than 5!

 

[Curly]

Jeff ask the others that submitted entries what they feel is right. If they are okay with leaving the first vote as cast and you modifying the logo and using it, assuming it won. Or modifying it and revoting.

 

[jeff]

Thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful input!

As several of you surmised, the issue is the aspect ratio of Logo B, and that entry is the winning entry.

Given that entry B received more than three times the votes of the second place entry, and 55% of the total vote, I did not feel that this issue affected the outcome. It seems extremely unlikely that the larger aspect ratio contributed significantly to the appeal of the winning logo. Similarly, it seems unlikely that given a larger ratio, that the other logos would have been different enough to change the outcome.

 

[LouCee]

Would it help to remove the oval from Logo B?

 

[egnald]

Would it help to remove the oval from Logo B?

Or even just re-shape it a bit to squash it in from the sides? It looks like there is plenty of horizontal overhang. - Dave

 

[NGLJ]

Here we are trying to legitimize an entry that should have not been there, at least in its current form. If it was not there then no competition because less that 5 entries. Whether you realize it or not you are just re-writing the rules, rules which everybody else followed. It would only be right to re-run the competition under new rules. The current "winner" could not be allowed to enter because that would bias the voting.

Jeff asked me to post this - it was a private communication to him:

Title: This whole thing is a farce

"If I had not submitted 2 entries there would have been no contest anyway! To allow an entry that did not follow the rules to win is not right. Even to allow it to be modified to qualify is not right either. There are rules for a reason. I spent a lot of time, as no doubt did the other legitimate entries, adjusting my submissions to qualify. If I had had more flexibility I might well have done something quite different. There has been a lot of debate as to how the obvious winner can legitimized but what about the rest of us. Thus far I have greatly enjoyed my time in IAP and hope to continue but if the "wrong" entry is allowed to win I will not partake in any future contests. I will not withdraw my entries because that would be peevish and I am not like that."

As one of the entrants, the above makes it perfectly clear how I feel about all of this!

 

[magpens]

Would it help to remove the oval from Logo B?

In my judgement, without measuring, removing the oval outline entirely would solve the aspect ratio problem with Logo "B".
I believe that the aspect ratio issue could also be solved by squishing the outline horizontally, thus distorting its shape to be more "squarish".

I believe that there is provision in the rules, as I read and interpret them, for the successful entry to be slightly modified at the discretion of whomever prepares the final version of the logo.

Either way the required modification might be made, I believe that Logo "B" should be accepted as the winning entry.

Whatever decision is made, I have no vested interest in it.

 

[NGLJ]

Mal, you might feel differently if you had taken part. What is your definition of "slightly modified"? We could debate that forever. It isn't as if the aspect ratio is close. if it was I would have no problem. For the record I wrote the above to Jeff before I knew the voting. This is not personal To win is very nice but is also important to give weight to taking part.

 

[NGLJ]

Oops I clicked too soon....Let's suppose you entered a pen competition which stated that you must start from a blank that is no more than 3/4" in diameter and you won. Then somebody discovered that your blank was 13/16". That extra 1/16" may have made no difference to the opinion about the product BUT you did not follow the rules. How do you think those who did follow the rules would feel about that. You might say "but it was close". How close is close enough not to matter? That surely is the point here. It was NOT close! If the person submitting the entry was not careful enough to check that it was within the rules then why should the rest of the entrants be punished? I rest my case and as I said will not partake in future. That will disappoint me but there is a line that you must not cross or you become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

If people want to change the rules that is fine by me, but do it fairly and thoughtfully. This is NOT the way!

 

[magpens]

Mal, you might feel differently if you had taken part. What is your definition of "slightly modified"? We could debate that forever. It isn't as if the aspect ratio is close. if it was I would have no problem. For the record I wrote the above to Jeff before I knew the voting. This is not personal To win is very nice but is also important to give weight to taking part.

I might indeed feel differently if it were my design, as you suggested.

However, I conscientiously plead that I have no axe to grind, Graham.

I would regard the omission of the outer oval as a "slight" modification. . There is no requirement for the oval. . It's desirability is debatable.
So inclusion of an aspect ratio requirement is a somewhat nebulous concept . . . aspect ratio of essential part meets the requirement, IMHO.

Frankly, the conceptual and artistic appeal of Logo B exceeds that of all the others . . . hands down, in my opinion, and that of 55% of IAP.
I very much like the inclusion of the lathe in the Logo, because the lathe is central to everything we do in making a pen.
Also, the visual appeal of the actual pen images in Logo B is quite superior.

I am not taking shots at anybody. . Those are my honest . . . and, I claim, unbiased . . . opinions .
I had no idea that you had entries, Graham, and I applaud your interest and enthusiasm for submitting those entries.

Whatever the outcome of this contest, I sincerely hope that it will not influence your choice to participate in future, Graham.

 

[LouCee]

If people want to change the rules that is fine by me, but do it fairly and thoughtfully.

Would removing the oval really be changing the rules? The last sentence in the Selection Process section reads "If you win, we may ask you to tweak your design slightly to fit our needs"

 

[NGLJ]

Mel, what axe am I grinding? I said this is not personal and I mean it. I don't care that my logos did not do well. I enjoyed doing it, winning would have just been a nice bonus! I am not crying spilled milk because I did not win. I grew up a very long time ago and in the scheme of things right now this barely registers on my care scale. BUT I do care that it should be fair to all! I am only interested in fairness to all.

I think logo B is very good and it is easy to see it's appeal. I freely admit that it is better than my entries. I am quite capable of making a dispassionate assessment. My argument is that given the opportunity for more flexibility then others may have done something different and I am not saying me! Where can you possibly find fault in that argument? Fairness would have been to give everyone the opportunity to resubmit with an aspect ratio up to 1.7:1. Where is the harm? If that was done and logo B still won then so be it! BUT what if a logo was submitted that was was preferred? Then we have a fair and legitimate competition. If I had only submitted one entry then all of the discussion on this thread would have been mute because there would not have been a competition according to the rules. Not I said the "rules"!

My understanding is that IAP would like to encourage participation. This is not likely to do that. If you don't know how things will be judged then why would you enter. I have run competitions and it can be thankless task. As the saying goes "you can please some of the people all of the time BUT you cannot please everyone all of the time". I don't envy the situation that Jeff found himself in through an honest oversight but there is a price for all mistakes however unfortunate!

 

[magpens]

Graham . . . please . . . Please understand that I am not taking issue with you, your entries, or your opinions. . I don't even know your entries.

I apologize for including the reference to grinding, axe, or anything else that may be deemed to be inappropriate by anybody.

I am merely stating my own opinions . . . in the light of my understanding of the somewhat malleable rules that were stated at the beginning.

As a consolation prize, if that becomes an appropriate reference, would you like to have a collection of wood pen blanks ?
When I saw your introductory thread, and noted your residential location, I immediately had the thought that we might someday meet.
I have a large collection of very nice wood pen blanks from a huge variety of woods, that I know I will never have the time to use.
In fact, since acquiring those, I have taken an overriding preference for acrylic blanks and similar.
I am extremely interested in the concept you recently illustrated with your "spiral" segmentation.
And my immediate thought was to share some of my delightful wood pen blanks with you for you to experiment with.

I would still like to do that . . . What say you ?

 

[NGLJ]

Would removing the oval really be changing the rules? The last sentence in the Selection Process section reads "If you win, we may ask you to tweak your design slightly to fit our needs"

As I said earlier "what does tweak mean?". Does it mean changing the font to make it better for use, or changing line thickness to give it better definition? I would have no issue with that because it would have been using a legitimate entry! The submission as presented did not comply with the stated rules and therefore should not have been considered. I didn't make the rules I simply tried to follow them like all the other entries. But your honor I was only doing 35 in a 30 zone couldn't you see your way to........

 

[johnjohnson42]

While my entry came in at a distant third, I have to wonder if it would have received more votes had I not followed all the rules, particularly the aspect ratio. This rule can be, and was definitely a challenge to adhere to. It's been mentioned that the winning design can be modified upon winning but I wouldn't necessarily consider changing the aspect ratio, especially when it's 25% more than it should have been, as a "tweak" to the design.

Regardless, the "winning" logo received far more votes than any other but it's somewhat disheartening that all other participants were mindful of all the rules and we're left wondering "what could have been?".

All that being said, it's a tough pill to swallow knowing that I followed all the rules and the entry that received the most votes didn't, whether intentional or not.

 

[NGLJ]

Mal, it's OK I was not taking exception to you. I will always try and respect another person's opinion. Yes, we should definitely try and meet. I haven't been out and about much under the current circumstances. Thank you for kind offer but as I tried to explain this isn't about winning or losing for me. Perhaps we can think about swapping some. I doubt my collection is anything as good as yours because I have only been pen turning for about 3 months. A friend who does not do pen turning has given me some wood. He calls them off-cuts but some I could make easily make pen blanks from.

 

[NGLJ]

While my entry came in at a distant third, I have to wonder if it would have received more votes had I not followed all the rules, particularly the aspect ratio. This rule can be, and was definitely a challenge to adhere to. It's been mentioned that the winning design can be modified upon winning but I wouldn't necessarily consider changing the aspect ratio, especially when it's 25% more than it should have been, as a "tweak" to the design.

Regardless, the "winning" logo received far more votes than any other but it's somewhat disheartening that all other participants were mindful of all the rules and we're left wondering "what could have been?".

All that being said, it's a tough pill to swallow knowing that I followed all the rules and the entry that received the most votes didn't, whether intentional or not.

Thank you John. Finally somebody who sees it from point of view. I was beginning to wonder if I was all alone . 25% change is NOT a tweak!