I can't get it out of my head

[egnald]

Greetings all, Have you ever heard of "Stuck Song Syndrome"? Well, I have something similar going on. Yesterday I ran across something and I just can't seem to get it out of my head, so I thought if I post it here maybe my brain will quit trying to answer the unknown question.

Whenever I start contemplating setting up a Nebraska business to sell some of my pens I do a little Google and eBay research on what they are being sold for. I ran across an eBay store and associated auctions from a seller in Colorado with mostly Southwest, Cigar, Vertex, and some slim style pens. What got stuck for me are the prices.

For example, the seller has Southwest twist pens, segmented (albeit the woods are relatively common, padauk, maple, walnut, etc.) being sold for $32 (or best offer) including shipping. That particular kit is $20. The segmented blank must surely have a couple of dollars worth of wood. The supplies used to build the kit, glue, sandpaper, finish, etc. are probably another dollar or so. I would assume that the shipping is simply a padded First-Class envelope that goes for $0.51 postage plus another $0.20 or so for the padded envelope. Considering selling on eBay with store costs, listing fees, and commissions, my estimated cost is somewhere around $26 give or take. For the pens that sold for the full listing price. that only leaves $6 for all of the work and effort that went into making it. (I note the full listing price because many of the sales went for less than the listing price as "best offer" sales).

It makes me feel narcissistic because I value the pens I turn much more highly than simply the direct cost of the materials. There is no way I could muster any motivation to build a product, manage a catalog, and deal with sales and shipping for something that only marginally covers the direct costs. Does this make sense or am I just being conceited by placing too much value on my craftsmanship and chariness?

Regards,
Dave

 

[TellicoTurning]

I suppose some people do this just for the fun of doing without regard of making a profit... I'm more like you, if I go to the effort to make an object, manage a web site or web store, package and ship, etc... I want to be compensated for my time..... I have set a "shop rate" of what I think my time "might" be worth and if I can't realize that figure, don't bother with selling the item.

I don't do pen any more, did for a number of years, but got bored with them and switched to mostly bowls and pepper mills. Bowls are relatively cost free since I have collected most of the wood from local sources, but my pepper mills have a fixed cost with the grinder mechanism and in most cases more exotic purchased woods. I expect to make about a 20-30% markup on my mills.

 

[skiprat]

This question has been asked a few times and we always get interesting responses.
For me, this is a hobby, I have never sold a pen. But if I couldn't afford not to sell them then the next step we be to sell them for enough to simply just keep supporting my hobby. If I needed to make a living from it, then it is no longer a hobby and becomes work. Then I'd invest in a good web site and good photo equipment and try and be really pro about it. As far as I can see, there are two ways to make money selling pens, either by a little profit and sell hundreds or have a unique style like the Gisi's or Bruce Boone for instance where they can easily command big bucks.
If you only break even, then your hobby costs you nothing. I can't think of many hobbies that pay for themselves.
I mean, do you ever get your fees back for playing golf ?

 

[PatrickR]

I've never sold a pen and probably never will. I have donated them and given them away. If you make many at all its a good way to get them into use and with charities a little tax write off. I don't see any money to be made in pens at all. You don't have to value your craftsmanship but you do have to put a value on your time. If you look at it as a business there is no way you would start to sell them. Maybe you will get a little of the money Back. If selling is a thing you enjoy find something else that is in demand with a high markup. A person could make more per hour doing almost anything. The majority of people put little to no value on pens. They are everywhere either free or cheap and considered disposable by many.
Play another song and this one will be replaced.

 

[MRDucks2]

I don't sell many pens, but the ones I do sell are worth the price. I calculate a price then compare it to "market" and see if I am in the ballpark. "Market" means I ignore both break-even pricing and those who produce superior products.

Told before, but my sister once ordered 4 pens for Christmas gifts. She bought the second cheapest I make. Showed them to her (along with a large selection) during Thanksgiving. She decided they were too small and wanted cigar style pens instead. Made them, delivered them and she refused to pay the full difference in price because she couldn't see more cost or effort between two styles of pens.

Year later she stops by my house after visiting a shop in Nashville, Indiana that sold pens just like the ones she bought. She apologized for undervaluing my pens. She indicated theirs cost twice as much as mine, had a poor fit, wrote scratchy and the finish looked horrible. I just smiled.

 

[jttheclockman]

I will play along and have taken heat for my answers to this dilemma before but will once again put it out there. As Skip has mentioned this topic has been discussed many times before and comes up at least once a week. I too sell very few pens and when I do they are displayed at my craft shows along side my scrollsaw work which is my primary money maker if you want to call it that. That is another hobby that has taken a hit over the years and being I have done it for over 40 years I believe I am quailfied to make a statement and I could care less what some here may think.

First off you will get many here to give you formulas for figuring out pricing and I never ever did that so will let them show all the numbers and times rates. There are a couple sides of looking at this but one factor always stands out and that is you will get out at least as much as you put in and I am talking about effort to sell your product. If you are serious about selling then you need to treat as a business and not a hobby. The adage location, location, location is very true. Where you sell and who your target market is should be your focus. It helps if your work is top notch, your work has some sort of design aspect that sets you apart from all others, and it helps if you have a good service platform for problems that pop up and state it so. If selling on social media sites (which I call them) FB, Etsy, Amazon and others then you need to realize who your competition is because it is so easy to compare each other. Having a web site not so much. Doing pen shows not so much or even craft shows. Photos need to be top notch to show the quality of your work and this is always hard to do because there is nothing like hands on. Also you are lacking the one on one talking that can make or break a sale and on those sites you rely on your write-up.

I have found over the years that people have no idea and do not care how long or how hard it is to make a product so get that out of your head. We know because we all do the same things here and that is why you look at others pricing and compare. People like different, they like color, and they like odd shapes or designs but also things with a theme that is recognizable. Take this into the pen turning field, blanks that are plain Jane, no matter what kit it is put on will command just so little because they are done by everyone and their brothers and you can tell them about platings and kit cost and mean nothing. This is one reason PSI had hired designers to make these standalone kits that to me are too much but it is the kit that is doing the selling because it usually is a theme kit. The blank is just something holding the kit together. Seen it over and over here. Not knocking anyone's work but if you are serious about selling, then matching a kit with a blank is a step that gets overlooked many times. I like to let the blank do the talking. Let your details to finishing and spinning of the blank talk for you also.

Now to the people who make pens with detail and then sell for cost are not only hurting themselves but other turners too. Because as I said people have it so easy to compare your work with others side by side. This tells me that you do not value your work and just want to get back what you put into it if that. You do not value the hidden things like designing, finishing, turning and then the intangibles like consuming things such as electricity, materials, tools and behind the scenes of getting that pen to market. This tells me you are not a businessperson at all. Developing a following and advertising your work are important aspects of business. But for those who want to have fun and just see if they can sell a pen or two then this all means nothing to you and you are going to do what you want but then do not come here and complain about not making money. Believe in yourself and your product and you will do well. It will take dedication and time. It will not happen overnight but it can happen if you are serious. Your competition is many and is strong and looking to sell that simple item is not easy for pens and pencils have been around a long time and your market is the low percentage people with disposable income. Make them take their hands out of their pockets and WOW them. Then you are a businessperson. Good luck and this is just rambling to many but if you are serious there are many books and videos around to be shared. I need to add this, This is just one person's opinion and it is mine.

 

[Mikeyt]

I sell pens and other things in Etsy have been for years. When I first started I put a price a little higher then others selling similar items. Since then i have continued to sell each month. The people who sell similar items at a lower price next to less then cost just don't last or don't make very many sales. I often think people may want to spend less for a pen or hand turned item but that old saying is "you get what you pay for" I believe if you have a great item to sell you will price it accordingly. So those who sell for less then cost just don't believe in what they are selling.

 

[penicillin]

My pens are all gifts or for personal and family use. I don't care to get into selling pens. Keep that in mind as you read my response.

It is a simple matter of supply and demand. In my opinion, more and more people are getting into pen making and home crafts in general. The supply is increasing and more sellers appear in the market every day. For now, customer awareness is increasing, too, but eventually those people who buy (or will buy) pens will have all they want. In the coming years, people will buy fewer pens and the market will be saturated. At that point, it will be a race to the bottom. Eventually, you will see beautiful but unwanted handmade pens getting scratched up and selling for $1 in a junk box at the swap meet. :-(

Example: In our generation, people bought settings of fine china at high prices. These days, you can't give it away. Few people want it or buy it. Beautiful, expensive fine china sets in mint condition can be found at the thrift stores for the price of plastic plates.

 

[jalbert]

I've had no issues selling my pens at profitable prices It just depends what you make and what market you can tap into.

 

[howsitwork]

I make them to give me pleasure. If someone wants me to make them one then I charge what I feel is fair depending upon what style etc they want.

The money gets used to buy other kits etc I fancy and I make damn sure SWMBO knows that the money has come from

I also direct people to other true crafts people who sell high end stuff if that is what they want.

If I don't like them then I refer them on as I am not giving up my pleasure time for someone I don't like. Pedantic? You better believe it . Same goes for my turned bowls and other items .

A guy I knew of in Huddersfield was a brilliant table maker. worked to commission only, with a
ong waiting list and had someone from London coming up for one that wasn't quite finished as the guy came up early. The buyer would have been happy to take it with a minor flaw underneath but he refused to sell until it was perfect . The buyer was exasperated as " who would know?" .The reply of "I would and it doesn't get sold until it's finished properly " floored him . But he waited and got his perfect table . I aim for the best I can deliver for ME .

 

[its_virgil]

This horse has been beaten to death as they say. What business is it of mine or others how someone else prices their pens? Honestly, it is not something I wish to spend time pondering. I can't change it. Other's prices have no bearing on me selling my pens. Just saying.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Fred Bruche]

But if you buy the Southwest twist by 25 kits the price is now $17 per kit, add on top of that a 20% off (welcome back) coupon from PSI, now the cost per kit is $13.60. So you could more than doubled your original calculated margin. Not saying it's a great money maker, but that helps for buying more breakfast bacon.

 

[egnald]

Ok - I've stopped wondering. Considering all of your comments I don't think I'm over valuing what I make, which is a bit of a relief. In regards to the "business" end of things, unfortunately to sell anything at a Farmer's Market, Craft Fair, etc. except fruits, vegetables, or bakery items in Nebraska, a Federal Tax ID, Nebraska Sales Tax ID, a Nebraska DBA (Doing Business As) registration, and Nebraska Sole Proprietorship registration, or LLC (Limited Liability Company) along with any other location or venue specific requirements are needed (vendor permits, city permits, etc.).

Although I still consider it a hobby, I still ponder getting things in line to sell once in a while, but it is such a daunting task (and somewhat expensive due to the associated fees) I eventually back out. For now I will continue to simply gift my pens to friends, family, Church and stuff and take the sense of accomplishment from their gratitude and from the feedback I get by posting pictures to the IAP forum.

Thanks everyone,
Dave

 

[jttheclockman]

Dave do what you think is best for you. Believe me when I say you will know if you are in a business or it is just a hobby and sell a few. Put out a product that represents you and your talents and have fun with it. Having a tax ID# takes it a smidge above the hobby line. Many shows require it so it may limit you where you sell but those are easy to get.

 

[Carl Fisher]

It can all be boiled down to this: I know what my time and craftsmanship is worth. I can't speak for anyone else.

And yes, I've given this exact response to customers at shows and 99% of them accept that and many have chosen to buy from me afterwards.