How should IAP Contests be Judged? Please Read Then Vote

[alankulwicki7]

FWIW Here is my opinion:

I like the limited number of pictures. I also like the rule for a simple background. This helps level the playing field a little because there are some of us that only do that as a hobby and just have a small digital camera and inexpensive photo booth setup. In fact, for this years contest I made my photo booth out of a cardboard box and a t-shirt. Total cost was free!

I also think if there are 25 pens in a contest, place them in two or three voting groups and take the top few vote getters from each group for the finals. Some of the polls were really hard to vote in just because of the amount of entrants.

If there are only 10 pens in a contest, then you could just have one group for that contest.

I also think that ALL entrants should be revealed at once. This would promote more entrants because people would not be afraid to enter after seeing the competition.

Lastly, have the contest deadlines staggered through out the month. Even 3 days apart would probably be enough.

I know some of these responses stray from the original question but I was too lazy to pull up all the threads!

 

[NewLondon88]

in round one to narrow it down say to the top 5 , only the ones that entered the contest could vote on the finalist pens . all enterants of that contest has to vote but they cant vote on there own pen . the final 5 would be open voting .

I think anything that restricts participation or excludes member more
than the current rules could be a move in the wrong direction.

 

[InvisibleMan]

Clearly, we need three polls per contest. We need an AP poll (members), a coaches poll (judges), and a computer algorithm that nobody understands to select an official winner from the southeastern corner of the United States. Every two or three years, we'll allow a pen maker from Utah or Idaho to pretend they have a shot right up until about two hours before the submission deadline when their buffing wheel will rip the finished pen out of their hands and spray it across the shop wall as he or she is reaching for the off switch.

 

[skiprat]

I believe that open members polling is the best way.
The larger the number of votes, the more accurate the result will be.

In the past, 'secret' judges are no more than some members here that the contest host likes. He sends an email to a couple of his IAP buddies and asks them if they want to judge.

If these handful of selected judges really are better at determining if one pen is better than the next, so they can narrow the entries down, then why are they secret?

I can't believe that the voting from the greater collective of a large group isn't as good as 3 or 4 other members.

There is another aspect too.
We get to know each others work and style. It's not rocket science to figure out who many of the pens are made by.
If you aren't flavour of the month with just one of the judges then your entry won't make the grade. Each pen needs at least one nod from each judge to make it into the finals.

If I'm going to be judged, then I'd rather it be by my peers than by some nameless entity that I will never know:biggrin:

 

[firewhatfire]

We already have a entry fee based competition. Its the Best of contest. How many pens were submitted for that? I had planned to enter was dissatisfied with my entry. Why waste the money if I know I have no chance of winning.


With the lack of the judges picking a top 5 in the freestyle this year I thought a better option would be for everyone to pick your favorite 3 (no particular order). Let the top 5 overall picks go into a final voting round. have voting be the same format pick 3 no particular order and he who has most votes wins. (if judges are used to narrow the first round down to 5 then 2 rounds of voting is not needed) I had a few that I would have picked given the option.

 

[SerenityWoodWorks]

Clearly, we need three polls per contest. We need an AP poll (members), a coaches poll (judges), and a computer algorithm that nobody understands to select an official winner from the southeastern corner of the United States. Every two or three years, we'll allow a pen maker from Utah or Idaho to pretend they have a shot right up until about two hours before the submission deadline when their buffing wheel will rip the finished pen out of their hands and spray it across the shop wall as he or she is reaching for the off switch.

Sweet being from the Southeast this means I can even pay someone else to build my pen and still win.

 

[hunter-27]

With the lack of the judges picking a top 5 in the freestyle this year

Let me clarify. The judges did each reach a top 5 individually but upon consolidation of the scoring it left a 4 way tie for 5th so I felt is was only fair to put all ten up for a vote.

 

[hunter-27]

I
In the past, 'secret' judges are no more than some members here that the contest host likes. He sends an email to a couple of his IAP buddies and asks them if they want to judge.

Not exactly how I did it, you would be shocked to know the names of a few of my NON MEMBER judges this year.

 

[SerenityWoodWorks]

I will be happy to get you in contact with my mother and other family members next year to help you judge

 

[markgum]

I think there should be ground rules on photos (except for the "selling photo contest".
Plain grey background
Capped Pen
Uncapped Pen with nib/ball point/roller ball at an angle to the lens

Maybe some photo professionals can chime in add some standards to make the photos the same. IMHO this should remove a lot of the bling/sparkle stuff to attract you to a pen and look more at the craftsmanship then photo.

 

[skiprat]

Not exactly how I did it, you would be shocked to know the names of a few of my NON MEMBER judges this year.

Ok Landon, go ahead and shock me, please.:biggrin:

If the judges are so good that the mere mention of their names would shock me, then why not get them to just pick the winner from their narrowed down selection? Why bother with the final voting?
I mean, we wouldn't want the general riff raff real IAP members to mess up the voting, would we???:wink::laugh:

So far, we are being told that we are not good enough to judge each others entries and also we can't be trusted not to be swayed by pictures being posted early and we also can't be trusted not to be swayed by seeing poll results. :frown::biggrin:

Now, we all know that IAP is the very best pen making community on the planet, but now you tell us that NON MEMBER judges are being used??


( I'm rattling your cage a bit here, so don't take me 'too' seriously, ok? :wink

 

[jttheclockman]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I am hoping that nonmember judges are not being used to judge these contests:frown: This contest or Bash as it has become is for members only. There is the Best of contest that is judged by non members later in the year. If you take away the judges and let the membership vote you won't have to worry about getting enough judges every year.

 

[darrin1200]

I don't like the idea of an entry fee. Some members just don't have the money to be entering multiple contests, or even one.

I also don't believe it is a good idea to send the entries in. There will be a huge cost shipping all entries to a start point, then shipping between judges and finally shipping back to the entrant. Each shipment increases the risk of loss. And if lost, that increases the cost to either the IAP or the entrant. The point about the Ukraine entrant being the exception isn't really valid. The IAP has a very large international population.

I agree that the final judging should be by the membership as a whole. I know if I was to win, it would feel much more gratifing if it came from the general population.

For what its worth, this is what I would reccomend.

I think that it would be good to have a standard set of photos that must be submitted with each entry. I think with 8-10 photos you could show every angle of a pen. These photos would go to judges to be narrowed to 10 entries. If there is less than 10 entries, you would not even need the judges. I know, for myself, that I just don't have the time or desire to weed through 30 entries in 10 different contests. I find it hard enough to choose from 10. That being said, I would be willing to volunteer to sit on one judging panel. Then each of the ten entries could be polled by the general population using 2-3 photos each.

The names of the judges in each catagory should be posted. Not how they voted or their opinions, just the names. We are all adults, and personally I would like to know who is judging. The only time I would like there to be comments, would be in the beginner catagory. These should be from the judges to the entrants by PM. I believe it would be good for the beginners to know where they need to improve without being held up in front of the entire membership.

While these comments would be nice for all the contests, I believe it would put a lot of undo pressure on the judges. There is a certain amount of personal opinion that goes into judging, and past experience in the forum shows that a lot of animosity can come from differing opinions. This is just human nature.

I think the Bash is a great place for all the members to virtually gather every year for a good time.

Just my 2¢ ..... or maybe 3¢.

 

[Sylvanite]

One thing I'd like to see, is if there is a culling selection (judged or polled) followed by a final poll, then I think the top 5 or 6 entries should go into the final poll, not just the top 3.

Beyond that, I think it would be fairer in the culling poll, for members to vote for their top 3 choices (if possible), not just their single favorite.

Regards,
Eric

 

[BSea]

I think members voting is more fun.

I think this says it all. Isn't a Party/Bash supposed to be about the fun?

If there were no judges, then the judges could be in the contest too. Who wouldn't want to see if they could beat JB in a casting contest?:wink: Or at least be on the same podium?

There are lots of ways to overcome the 30 entries per poll limit, so I don't see that as being an issue. Break it into groups, and have the top from each group go to a 2nd round.

I do think each contest that uses a kit should have a selected list of kits that can be used. This way at least we are comparing apples to apples, not jr gent Is to emperors. At least it's something to consider in a popular vote. It's not as big of an issue in a judged contest.

In the final vote, I think there should be at least 2 or 3 extra entries. For example the top 6 are voted on for 3 prizes. This gives a little drama to the final. If all the finalist are going to get a prize, it kind of takes away a little of the suspense. (see Eric's post above)

And I think that we should be able to vote for 2 or 3 in the preliminaries depending on the number of entries.

As for number of pics. I'd like to see 3 at least.


Now for a new suggestion. How about a march madness type of contest? (only in February) Each pen is assigned a spot in a bracket, and then a vote is taken twice a week till the final four. To make it easy, there would be no seedings, just random assignments. There could be a theme like "Wooden Cigar". But the kit would have to be something affordable to get everyone involved. And if there were 64 pens, then it would take all month.

Just an idea.

 

[mbroberg]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have no personal preference how the judging is done. My goal is to provide the members of the IAP with contests and activities that the members want in such a way that the members want them. That is why I am asking the membership, through this series of polls what it is they want.

I am bothered by some of the comments in this thread that imply that the individuals chosen to serve as judges are not qualified to do so and further imply that the contest chair-people lack the integrity or ability to chair their contests fairly. Let me be real clear about this. The judges that are selected are qualified and the members who serve as chair-people do their best to provide a fair, impartial competition. To even imply otherwise a slap in the face of the individuals who give their time and talents to provide the IAP membership with fun activities.

Why are the identities of the judges kept secret? As is true in any large group there is a small vocal minority of members who are not happy unless they are whining, complaining and stirring up trouble every chance they get. They claim to have all the answers but you will never see them volunteer to actually do anything. The people who volunteer their time and talents to judge should not have to put up with the obnoxious abuse of this vocal minority. To my knowledge no judges are told to keep their identities secret. Any one of them could speak up and say I was a judge in this contest. I don't see that happening because they don't want, nor do they deserve, the aggravation.

The people who serve as judges are chosen by the contest chair-people. Those judges are ethical, honest people who, like most of the IAP membership, want to do as good a job as they can. Ask yourselves if you were asked to be a judge would you be as fair and impartial as possible? The vast majority of you would be. The judges that are chosen are no different.

This year the chair-person of the Turn-Tex Photo Contests revealed the name of the judges once the contest is over. The person who chaired the event was not the person who was originally the chair-person. Early on in the planning the original chair-person asked me if I would find him some judges for the contest. I agreed. Here is how I did it. I went to the member list and did an advanced search of the members to find those who had "Photography" listed as either their profession or as an interest.
From that list I looked for the members who have belonged to the IAP for a year or more. Then, from that list I checked post counts and the dates of their most recent posts to see which of these members were active in this community. Then I PMd requests that they be judges. This types of process is typical. Contest chair-people look for qualified people to judge. (disclaimer - due to some last minute chair-person changes I was asked to be a judge in that contest. I was, without a doubt, the least qualified individual on that judging panel)

There are advantages and disadvantages to determining contest winners by either method. If you have a group of 4 or 5 judges and tell them that you want the entries to be judges on a fixed set of criteria you will get the pens judged based on that criteria. If you post the entries in an open poll and tell the general membership to judge the entries on a fixed set of criteria some will, some won't. By and large contestants will not know if the winner was chosen due to form, fit and finish or just WOW factor. There is nothing wrong with selecting winners by WOW factor if that is what the majority of the members want. Just realize what you are asking for. Like I said, I'll do it any way you want me to.

As I said in the beginning, my job is to give the membership what it wants in terms of activities. I'll do it any way you tell me to. I just want to make it real clear that the integrity of the judges that have been used should not be a concern. There is no conspiracy to deprive certain individuals from winning or to make sure others do. Every one of the contest chair-people, and the judges they select take their jobs very seriously and want to facilitate a fair competition. The IAP deserves nothing less.

 

[John Den]

Thank you for explaining all this and as far as I'm concerned you and the judges are doing a great job.
Many thanks to you all,
Kind regards,
John

 

[hunter-27]

Not exactly how I did it, you would be shocked to know the names of a few of my NON MEMBER judges this year.

Ok Landon, go ahead and shock me, please.:biggrin:

If the judges are so good that the mere mention of their names would shock me, then why not get them to just pick the winner from their narrowed down selection? Why bother with the final voting?
I mean, we wouldn't want the general riff raff real IAP members to mess up the voting, would we???:wink::laugh:

So far, we are being told that we are not good enough to judge each others entries and also we can't be trusted not to be swayed by pictures being posted early and we also can't be trusted not to be swayed by seeing poll results. :frown::biggrin:

Now, we all know that IAP is the very best pen making community on the planet, but now you tell us that NON MEMBER judges are being used??


( I'm rattling your cage a bit here, so don't take me 'too' seriously, ok? :wink

They helped me out when I asked. There will be no member to member bias from them I assure you. I had 5 judges and 3 were well known and extremely qualified members(trust me as well they are not my "friends" either), 2 were also well known and equally as qualified just not current members here (at least under the names i know them as anyway). I would love to shock you but I have not and will not start making judges identities known, members or not. :tongue: I'm not taking this personal in any way, just understand that anytime anyone wants to take over and do it their way, I most assuredly can take a break.

 

[mbroberg]

This poll was posted on 3/7/13. As of 3/10/13 @ 7:30pm EST 97 people have voted in this poll. I want everyone to have the opportunity to provide a vote. If you have not done so yet, why not take a second and cast a vote?

 

[mbroberg]

The vote count for this poll hasn't changed from 101 for three days so I guess it's time to shut it down.

Some of the numbers in this poll are a lot closer than they are in any of the other polls. None of the responses substantially won over the others. I interpret the numbers as saying that the members want two things. First, the members want to be involved in choosing the winners of the contests. Second, the members want the winners of the photo contest to be determined the same way as the pen contests. Having the members vote for the winners of all contests after the field is narrowed by judges has a slight edge over having the winners determined by the members with no involvement of judges.

Based on this information contest chair-people will be allowed to decide if the event they are chairing should have judges involved in the process of selecting winners, or not. Regardless of that decision the final winners will ultimately be chosen by member vote.