How important is triple start cap?

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jhiggi83

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I've been debating whether to invest $300 in an M13 triple-start tap and die set. Up until now, I've only used a single-start tap and die, but I'm curious how much customers actually value the triple-start feature when buying bespoke pens. Some advice I've gotten (including from ChatGPT) suggests that once you're charging more than $200 for a pen, a triple-start cap is almost expected.

What's been your experience — do customers really notice or care about this feature, or is it more of a "maker's detail" than a dealbreaker for buyers?
 
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I'm not trying to sell my pens right now.

So for me, the answer is "not important enough to spend $300 on."
 
Umm... I disagree.
I think this is a case of the emperor's new clothes.

A pen with a single start thread has no less quality than a pen using a triple start thread. The quality of the pen is dependent on the skill of the craftsman making the pen - not the thread.

A single start tap and die allows you to set the alignment from cap to body precisely - a triple start gives you a choice of 3 starting positions, only one of which lines up the pattern. If that's not a critical factor for you then fine. For me a misaligned pattern would look how a discordant chord sounds - horrid.

I only use a single start tap/die and can remove the cap within 1.5 turns. I have a waiting list of 8 weeks for my pens, and have sold 40 so far this year. The deal breaker for my customers is not a triple start thread, is only about the design and materials that I've used.

Is half a turn worth £600 plus to setup for triple start - 12mm, 13mm, 14mm and 15mm sets (for #5, #6, and #8 nibs)? Nah, I don't think so.

At the end of the day it's an opinion.
 
Chriscb said:
Umm... I disagree.
I think this is a case of the emperor's new clothes.

A pen with a single start thread has no less quality than a pen using a triple start thread. The quality of the pen is dependent on the skill of the craftsman making the pen - not the thread.

A single start tap and die allows you to set the alignment from cap to body precisely - a triple start gives you a choice of 3 starting positions, only one of which lines up the pattern. If that's not a critical factor for you then fine. For me a misaligned pattern would look how a discordant chord sounds - horrid.

I only use a single start tap/die and can remove the cap within 1.5 turns. I have a waiting list of 8 weeks for my pens, and have sold 40 so far this year. The deal breaker for my customers is not a triple start thread, is only about the design and materials that I've used.

Is half a turn worth £600 plus to setup for triple start - 12mm, 13mm, 14mm and 15mm sets (for #5, #6, and #8 nibs)? Nah, I don't think so.

At the end of the day it's an opinion.
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I somewhat agree - but limit my agreement to pens with a strong pattern that requires a match. I think a well done single start, allowing a minimum amount of turns from start to finish for the cap to be placed when there is a definite need to match a pattern on the blank is totally acceptable - and reflects the skills of the maker as the pattern is way more important than the threads. Otherwise, I'm definitely aware of any pens I pick up that that are single start - and think the makers concern on quality is also reflected in the threading - and if they wouldn't spend the funds to buy the taps and dies, makes me think where else did they cut corners?
 
I appreciate all of the insights. I went through all of my commercial fountain pens a most are some variation of a single start or a snap close. My favorite is a triple start vintage Montblanc broad nib though. I'll go ahead and order an m13 as I currently only build with Jowo #6 nibs and wait for a group order on others if I start using different nibs.
 
NJturner said:
I somewhat agree - but limit my agreement to pens with a strong pattern that requires a match. I think a well done single start, allowing a minimum amount of turns from start to finish for the cap to be placed when there is a definite need to match a pattern on the blank is totally acceptable - and reflects the skills of the maker as the pattern is way more important than the threads. Otherwise, I'm definitely aware of any pens I pick up that that are single start - and think the makers concern on quality is also reflected in the threading - and if they wouldn't spend the funds to buy the taps and dies, makes me think where else did they cut corners?
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Umm.... as I said if you don't need the precise alignment then fine, but to suggest that corners are cut because a triple start tap and die wasn't used is ludicrous.
 
I'm with @Chriscb on this - as someone who has been a user of numerous fountain pens ranging from <$10 to multiple hundreds of dollars over the course of the last ~15 years, a triple start is just not required for me.

If the pen looks great, fits my hands and balances well, and writes well, then the number of rotations it takes to get the cap off is basically immaterial.
 
Chriscb said:
Umm.... as I said if you don't need the precise alignment then fine, but to suggest that corners are cut because a triple start tap and die wasn't used is ludicrous.
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I've been a long time member of IAP, as I see have you. One of the biggest comments I get from turners when I reference the IAP and suggest they join and be active is that they found the IAP members to be aggressive, often nasty, and pretty close minded. Over the years, I have found that I have gotten incredible amounts of good information from members through the active discussions and the banter regarding how we do our craft. The biggest asset here is the continued respect for each other, our work methods, and the value each of us bring to the table to help one another. I'm sorry you didn't agree with my opinion - it is mine and I thought it was delivered in a non-offensive way. I am sorry you may not have seen it that way. Your reply simply reminds me as to why it is sometimes difficult to bring new turners into the forum.

Kevin
 
Chriscb said:
Umm.... as I said if you don't need the precise alignment then fine, but to suggest that corners are cut because a triple start tap and die wasn't used is ludicrous.required
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It is not that "corners are cut because a triple start tap and die wasn't used" - that is not the point here. It is a matter that triple starts are often one part of the equation of "leveling up" in features and quality for pen makers in their learning curve - for the most part. Sure, you don't use triple start and your pens are Superb/Excellent with your method of single start and 1.5 turn cap. That is Great! No argument there.

But to imply that "no one" needs triple start is not true. There are many fountain pen collectors that look for the triple start as a part of their purchasing equation. AND as many pen makers level up in their precision, quality and design/aesthetics, they also look to what aspects of a pen most people want when purchasing. They also look to what pulls in the larger money spent. Triple starts are one part of the equation or feature. That is just the way it is, and not just in the USA. I spent 1/3 of my nearly 80 years in the East, and got my start in pen turning while there. I noticed these things there as well a here.

I am sure that if a fountain pen enthusiast who loved triple starts saw your pens, he would think it over and re-adjust his mindset that it doesn't have to be triple start to be a pen worth having. He would buy your single start in an instant - or at least order/commission one from you. However, until a fountain pen connoisseur saw yours, for the most part, the triple start would usually be one of the features required in purchasing a $1000+ pen.

I will bet that since your post, there will be more pen makers trying for the 1.5 turns in a single start pen, and practice for the alignment when needed. For that part, thank you for posting! You will probably be asked to post some of your methods of achieving 1.5 with strength. 1.5 threads will be weak for those not knowledgeable and will most likely have "broken" pens returned to them. (But that is not your fault. )
 
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There are more than a few makers out there selling great pens using single start threads. I do not think that single start threads indicate anything lesser in a pen. One of my favorite maker pens is a micarta pen by Skogsy Pens and it is single start. Chris (@Chriscb) the work you have posted here on the IAP is incredible and I always enjoy seeing your work.

However... I will say, that my experience is that multiple start threads, at least to many buyers, does indicate more...

Most of the makers I see at the big pen shows (DC, San Francisco) are using triple start or even more. There are a few makers out there doing quad and even 5 start threads. Those are absolutely incredible and less than a single turn to open/close. So smooth. I haven't seen it but have heard legend that there is someone out there doing 8 start threads.

At the end of the day it is all in the eyes of the buyer.
 
d_bondi said:
There are more than a few makers out there selling great pens using single start threads. I do not think that single start threads indicate anything lesser in a pen. One of my favorite maker pens is a micarta pen by Skogsy Pens and it is single start. Chris (@Chriscb) the work you have posted here on the IAP is incredible and I always enjoy seeing your work.

However... I will say, that my experience is that multiple start threads, at least to many buyers, does indicate more...

Most of the makers I see at the big pen shows (DC, San Francisco) are using triple start or even more. There are a few makers out there doing quad and even 5 start threads. Those are absolutely incredible and less than a single turn to open/close. So smooth. I haven't seen it but have heard legend that there is someone out there doing 8 start threads.

At the end of the day it is all in the eyes of the buyer.
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In my view , and solely my view , it all depends on what your target buyer or audience wants.

If it doesn't feel right then single , triple , quadruple starts make little difference .

One of the things about written comments here is people offer their view and opinion . I have had much useful advice , some contradictory but that's what you get when you ask for advice.

Which ( advice) you take is your choice . It's great that people RESPECT others views, which is how is should be .
 
NJturner said:
I've been a long time member of IAP, as I see have you. One of the biggest comments I get from turners when I reference the IAP and suggest they join and be active is that they found the IAP members to be aggressive, often nasty, and pretty close minded. Over the years, I have found that I have gotten incredible amounts of good information from members through the active discussions and the banter regarding how we do our craft. The biggest asset here is the continued respect for each other, our work methods, and the value each of us bring to the table to help one another. I'm sorry you didn't agree with my opinion - it is mine and I thought it was delivered in a non-offensive way. I am sorry you may not have seen it that way. Your reply simply reminds me as to why it is sometimes difficult to bring new turners into the forum.

Kevin
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On the fact "they found the AP members to be aggressive, often nasty, and pretty close minded" I would agree with you. So answer me this -where would you place your comment "and if they wouldn't spend the funds to buy the taps and dies, makes me think where else did they cut corners?"?? Open minded, passive and complimentary ... Umm.

It's not that I disagreed with your opinion expressed - "Over the years, I have found that I have gotten incredible amounts of good information from members through the active discussions and the banter regarding how we do our craft. The biggest asset here is the continued respect for each other, our work methods, and the value each of us bring to the table to help one another." - it's just that I disagree with with your inference that I, as an exclusive user of single thread die and taps have cut corners when crafting my pens.
 
leehljp said:
It is not that "corners are cut because a triple start tap and die wasn't used" - that is not the point here. It is a matter that triple starts are often one part of the equation of "leveling up" in features and quality for pen makers in their learning curve - for the most part. Sure, you don't use triple start and your pens are Superb/Excellent with your method of single start and 1.5 turn cap. That is Great! No argument there.

But to imply that "no one" needs triple start is not true. There are many fountain pen collectors that look for the triple start as a part of their purchasing equation. AND as many pen makers level up in their precision, quality and design/aesthetics, they also look to what aspects of a pen most people want when purchasing. They also look to what pulls in the larger money spent. Triple starts are one part of the equation or feature. That is just the way it is, and not just in the USA. I spent 1/3 of my nearly 80 years in the East, and got my start in pen turning while there. I noticed these things there as well a here.

I am sure that if a fountain pen enthusiast who loved triple starts saw your pens, he would think it over and re-adjust his mindset that it doesn't have to be triple start to be a pen worth having. He would buy your single start in an instant - or at least order/commission one from you. However, until a fountain pen connoisseur saw yours, for the most part, the triple start would usually be one of the features required in purchasing a $1000+ pen.

I will bet that since your post, there will be more pen makers trying for the 1.5 turns in a single start pen, and practice for the alignment when needed. For that part, thank you for posting! You will probably be asked to post some of your methods of achieving 1.5 with strength. 1.5 threads will be weak for those not knowledgeable and will most likely have "broken" pens returned to them. (But that is not your fault. )
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Great - and thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments. Quite willing to detail my method - which isn't rocket science.

Of the 12 'commercial' pens I have, only one, (a vintage Conway Stewart) has a 'standard' single threaded cap. By that I mean two of the others have a trapezoidal thread (ACME) and the remainder are air tight push caps. Now I could get excited about learning the technique to turn air tight caps, and also using an ACME thread - that would be neat.
 
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Chriscb said:
On the fact "they found the AP members to be aggressive, often nasty, and pretty close minded" I would agree with you. So answer me this -where would you place your comment "and if they wouldn't spend the funds to buy the taps and dies, makes me think where else did they cut corners?"?? Open minded, passive and complimentary ... Umm.

It's not that I disagreed with your opinion expressed - "Over the years, I have found that I have gotten incredible amounts of good information from members through the active discussions and the banter regarding how we do our craft. The biggest asset here is the continued respect for each other, our work methods, and the value each of us bring to the table to help one another." - it's just that I disagree with with your inference that I, as an exclusive user of single thread die and taps have cut corners when crafting my pens.
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@Chriscb - I'm going to start this with a second apology - your pens are quite nice, I like them a lot. What I have seen of your work shows a thoughtful process and very nice work. I think both of our words were not exactly on point to our planned intentions and may have cut deeper than either of us intended or meant. At least I can honestly say that for my comment.

As @leehljp and @d_bondi both understood by my comment, my thought was more in line with Hank's comment of 'leveling up', not at all based on costs or one specific thing like the threads. @d_bondi and I went to the DC Pen Show together and we both marveled over many makers pens, including the makers he mentioned. I also looked at each one to see where I can improve or change my methods to continue to up my game as my personal goal in making pens is to constantly push my skills, try new things and 'Level up' my whole process. I drive myself to achieve better than my last, looking at things I see and finding ways where I can learn from a piece. Take this apology as you may, but know my original comment was not meant as an attack or insult, it was a look into my brain as to what I am thinking when I pick up a pen and look at it critically to understand how my methods compare - 'level up' as so nicely said by Hank Lee.

Kevin
 
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Here's another way to look at it. If you are making pens for yourself, whether or not to get triple start tap/die sets is entirely up to your own preference.
However, if this s a business and you are making pens for sale, the second pen you sell with the triple starts has paid for the tooling and, from there on out, you are golden. If you believe there is even a chance that your customers will prefer triple starts, it makes little economic sense not to go with them as the payoff period is basically nonexistent.
 
NJturner said:
@Chriscb - I'm going to start this with a second apology - your pens are quite nice, I like them a lot. What I have seen of your work shows a thoughtful process and very nice work. I think both of our words were not exactly on point to our planned intentions and may have cut deeper than either of us intended or meant. At least I can honestly say that for my comment.

As @leehljp and @d_bondi both understood by my comment, my thought was more in line with Hank's comment of 'leveling up', not at all based on costs or one specific thing like the threads. @d_bondi and I went to the DC Pen Show together and we both marveled over many makers pens, including the makers he mentioned. I also looked at each one to see where I can improve or change my methods to continue to up my game as my personal goal in making pens is to constantly push my skills, try new things and 'Level up' my whole process. I drive myself to achieve better than my last, looking at things I see and finding ways where I can learn from a piece. Take this apology as you may, but know my original comment was not meant as an attack or insult, it was a look into my brain as to what I am thinking when I pick up a pen and look at it critically to understand how my methods compare - 'level up' as so nicely said by Hank Lee.

Kevin
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"Level Up" believe it or not - was a term I picked up when My family and I were living in Japan. My wife and I were working totally within the Japanese language environment. However the Japanese language conversations occasionally brought a few foreign terms and words into its conversational mix. "Level Up" was one term that they used in certain situations. I don't know of a better term that is concise and still full of meaning as that one to occasionally use here and in other situations. Thanks for taking it in the way it was meant.
 
NJturner said:
@Chriscb - I'm going to start this with a second apology - your pens are quite nice, I like them a lot. What I have seen of your work shows a thoughtful process and very nice work. I think both of our words were not exactly on point to our planned intentions and may have cut deeper than either of us intended or meant. At least I can honestly say that for my comment.

As @leehljp and @d_bondi both understood by my comment, my thought was more in line with Hank's comment of 'leveling up', not at all based on costs or one specific thing like the threads. @d_bondi and I went to the DC Pen Show together and we both marveled over many makers pens, including the makers he mentioned. I also looked at each one to see where I can improve or change my methods to continue to up my game as my personal goal in making pens is to constantly push my skills, try new things and 'Level up' my whole process. I drive myself to achieve better than my last, looking at things I see and finding ways where I can learn from a piece. Take this apology as you may, but know my original comment was not meant as an attack or insult, it was a look into my brain as to what I am thinking when I pick up a pen and look at it critically to understand how my methods compare - 'level up' as so nicely said by Hank Lee.

Kevin
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And I will also start with an apology for not accepting your first, and thank you for your second apology and your kind words concerning my pens. That said I am sorry to have to say that I do wish that you wouldn't 'think' on my behalf. My words were precisely on point, my intention being to robustly defend my position, which I did. I apologise if that made you feel uncomfortable.

I honestly think that any craftsman will always strive to increase their skills (level up) - I cringe when I handle some of my very first turnings. A bowl that has no form, the outer curve of which bears no resemblance to the inner curve. My very first kit pen where the cap has a step to the metal work but the barrel has a dip. My very first kitless pen is a monstrosity, so out of balance and way too bigggg.

Chriscb
 
Aurelius said:
Here's another way to look at it. If you are making pens for yourself, whether or not to get triple start tap/die sets is entirely up to your own preference.
However, if this s a business and you are making pens for sale, the second pen you sell with the triple starts has paid for the tooling and, from there on out, you are golden. If you believe there is even a chance that your customers will prefer triple starts, it makes little economic sense not to go with them as the payoff period is basically nonexistent.
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Umm.. you pose an interesting dilemma. In my case I wouldn't always increase my selling price to offset my hardware costs. Let me expand on that... if I choose to use an M3 blank or some exceptional ebonite then yes I would. But I couldn't justify a price increase to reflect a triple thread.
 
leehljp said:
"Level Up" believe it or not - was a term I picked up when My family and I were living in Japan. My wife and I were working totally within the Japanese language environment. However the Japanese language conversations occasionally brought a few foreign terms and words into its conversational mix. "Level Up" was one term that they used in certain situations. I don't know of a better term that is concise and still full of meaning as that one to occasionally use here and in other situations. Thanks for taking it in the way it was meant.
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Agreed - the Japanese have a wonderful tradition (philosophy ) of using one word to describe a complex idea.
 
Chriscb said:
Yes - I looked at your pen a while back. Have you 'sacrificed' a pen yet to look at the cross section? How thick are the cap walls?
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Minimum cap wall thickness is down to 1mm on my last few. I have not cut cross section.

Tapered single start is on an experiment list
Further down on that list is 2 start half depth Acme
 
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Chriscb said:
Umm.. you pose an interesting dilemma. In my case I wouldn't always increase my selling price to offset my hardware costs. Let me expand on that... if I choose to use an M3 blank or some exceptional ebonite then yes I would. But I couldn't justify a price increase to reflect a triple thread.
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To be clear, I wasn't necessarily suggesting increasing your prices. When I mentioned the payback period, what I meant was if you sell your pens for $175 each, then the cost of the tap and die set is covered after you sell approximately 2 pens. Looking ta it another way, if you get two sales that you would not have gotten otherwise, then the tap and die has paid for itself. In either case, the time until the tool has paid for itself is very short. That is what I meant when I said that, if you are making pens for sale, it makes little economic sense not to. Additionally, if you have a registered business, the cost of the tap and die count as business expenses and could be written off on your taxes so you are not really losing anything.
 
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