Quality Pen
Member
John, you brought up a brilliant point. What IS a beginner?
Miriam Webster:
It relates to time.
Miriam Webster:
It relates to time.
How do you define a Beginner for the Bash?
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Its not a dead horse by any means John. Your comment
"When will you drop the BEGINNER title? When do you you move up to INTERMEDIATE?? What is the difference between the 2??? 60 pens seems quite a lot of pens to hone the art of turning something round. Is there an amount of pens or is it time in years you call yourself a pen turner or is the time at a lathe, that dictates the rating system?" has some value to it.
In prior years we had the Beginner Contests and we had comments made that the "winner" couldnt be a "Beginner" because the pen that won was too far advanced for a beginner to make.
Because of the problems with defining "Beginner" and the other levels. THe contests this year were built around skill level entries. The idea was to have a contest with restrictions that would entice lesser skilled member to join in.
"When will you drop the BEGINNER title? When do you you move up to INTERMEDIATE?? What is the difference between the 2??? 60 pens seems quite a lot of pens to hone the art of turning something round. Is there an amount of pens or is it time in years you call yourself a pen turner or is the time at a lathe, that dictates the rating system?" has some value to it.
In prior years we had the Beginner Contests and we had comments made that the "winner" couldnt be a "Beginner" because the pen that won was too far advanced for a beginner to make.
Because of the problems with defining "Beginner" and the other levels. THe contests this year were built around skill level entries. The idea was to have a contest with restrictions that would entice lesser skilled member to join in.
...which in turn encourages people to get excited and ENJOY their newly found activity, thus further encouraging them to seek to improve their skills. Imagine how disheartening would it be for someone just learning anything to be pitted against someone who has spent years learning and perfecting their skill level to then be told their work did not measure up enough to win.
Teach and multiply thyself....
Teach and multiply thyself....
Its not a dead horse by any means John. Your comment
"When will you drop the BEGINNER title? When do you you move up to INTERMEDIATE?? What is the difference between the 2??? 60 pens seems quite a lot of pens to hone the art of turning something round. Is there an amount of pens or is it time in years you call yourself a pen turner or is the time at a lathe, that dictates the rating system?" has some value to it.
In prior years we had the Beginner Contests and we had comments made that the "winner" couldnt be a "Beginner" because the pen that won was too far advanced for a beginner to make.
Because of the problems with defining "Beginner" and the other levels. THe contests this year were built around skill level entries. The idea was to have a contest with restrictions that would entice lesser skilled member to join in.
jttheclockman
Member
Its not a dead horse by any means John. Your comment
"When will you drop the BEGINNER title? When do you you move up to INTERMEDIATE?? What is the difference between the 2??? 60 pens seems quite a lot of pens to hone the art of turning something round. Is there an amount of pens or is it time in years you call yourself a pen turner or is the time at a lathe, that dictates the rating system?" has some value to it.
In prior years we had the Beginner Contests and we had comments made that the "winner" couldnt be a "Beginner" because the pen that won was too far advanced for a beginner to make.
Because of the problems with defining "Beginner" and the other levels. THe contests this year were built around skill level entries. The idea was to have a contest with restrictions that would entice lesser skilled member to join in.
And Mike this is why my first post I stated I like the idea to drop the titles and have the contests designed for skill testing. This way anyone weather they are a first time pen turner or a 20 year pen turner can enter. This years contest took a step in that direction. Can it be improved, I think so. But to make a contest around a so called beginner is just not possible. Define what a beginner is and that is where the problem lies. You are only a beginner once at something. Every time i try something new I am again a beginner. Take the slimline contests. It has the stigma of being a beginners contest because we basically started making slimlines as our first pens. But with that said do you know what beautiful pens can be made with the slimline kit??? It has been shown here time and time again. There are other examples. The blank making contest looked like a more seasoned player contest but in reality anyone could make a blank.
If the person does not think highly enough in their ability's then they never will and it is pointless. I am going to begin my day so I am a beginner once again
You all have a great day.
jttheclockman
Member
Just a Thought
Sitting in the doctor's office today, I started thinking about the conversation that is going on with the classification of beginner's contests and such. I thought of the comparison thought and comment I made about doctors practicing. I always kid my doctor about that and whenever I was asked what I did for a living I would always say a practicing electrician. I did that for 42 years and still have not gotten it right.
But I also started thinking I am a huge scrollsaw hobbyist. This is actually my #1 hobby and has been for over 35 years. In the scrollsaw world there are those pattern makers that we all use and become familiar with their work. What some artists do is use a grading system for their plans. 1 thru 5 and it corresponds to the skill level that is at least needed to saw the pattern. Now this does not prohibit anyone from buying the pattern and doing it. No matter how skilled you are. What it does is gives the buyer an idea the difficulty that is incorporated within the pattern. This helps because many times all you have to look at is a photo of the finished product.
If this system is adopted to the contests run here it would help give the person who want to take a shot at it an idea of what to expect as far as difficulty. It eliminates any titles on the contest and it does not prohibit anyone from trying them. Maybe a person who is more skilled would not want to put their efforts into a contest that has a difficulty rating of say a 1 or a 2 but wants more of a challenge and looks for ones with a 4 or 5 difficulty rating. Now it does not stop anyone else from giving it a shot.
As far as the prize thing goes I will leave that to the higher ups. No comment there.
So that is my thought for the day.
Sitting in the doctor's office today, I started thinking about the conversation that is going on with the classification of beginner's contests and such. I thought of the comparison thought and comment I made about doctors practicing. I always kid my doctor about that and whenever I was asked what I did for a living I would always say a practicing electrician. I did that for 42 years and still have not gotten it right.
But I also started thinking I am a huge scrollsaw hobbyist. This is actually my #1 hobby and has been for over 35 years. In the scrollsaw world there are those pattern makers that we all use and become familiar with their work. What some artists do is use a grading system for their plans. 1 thru 5 and it corresponds to the skill level that is at least needed to saw the pattern. Now this does not prohibit anyone from buying the pattern and doing it. No matter how skilled you are. What it does is gives the buyer an idea the difficulty that is incorporated within the pattern. This helps because many times all you have to look at is a photo of the finished product.
If this system is adopted to the contests run here it would help give the person who want to take a shot at it an idea of what to expect as far as difficulty. It eliminates any titles on the contest and it does not prohibit anyone from trying them. Maybe a person who is more skilled would not want to put their efforts into a contest that has a difficulty rating of say a 1 or a 2 but wants more of a challenge and looks for ones with a 4 or 5 difficulty rating. Now it does not stop anyone else from giving it a shot.
As far as the prize thing goes I will leave that to the higher ups. No comment there.
So that is my thought for the day.
KenV
Member
Have been enjoying reading the thread. The underlying purpose is good, but there is an assumption that seems to be getting in the way --
Used to work with a guy who commonly asked the question -- is it 20 years experience or 1 years experience 20 times. The assumption is that there is at least a simi-linear progression from a starting point. Not sure that is a good rigorous place to anchor.
Along with that, I keep thinking of my old boss -- the one who told me he would know a good job when he saw it -- and rarely looked for it.
What make the differences between the difference categories? Several have make the case that it is is not time, not the number of pens made, nor several other thing.
If a set of parameters that vary with skills and knowledge are used, it may help sort out what is the difference between someone who is learning the skills, some one who is polishing and refining skills, and someone who has mastered the skills of being a pen turner?
JT has been pointing this direction. Mike has been talking around it.
What is important in a pen and how do you measure/evaluate it.
Used to work with a guy who commonly asked the question -- is it 20 years experience or 1 years experience 20 times. The assumption is that there is at least a simi-linear progression from a starting point. Not sure that is a good rigorous place to anchor.
Along with that, I keep thinking of my old boss -- the one who told me he would know a good job when he saw it -- and rarely looked for it.
What make the differences between the difference categories? Several have make the case that it is is not time, not the number of pens made, nor several other thing.
If a set of parameters that vary with skills and knowledge are used, it may help sort out what is the difference between someone who is learning the skills, some one who is polishing and refining skills, and someone who has mastered the skills of being a pen turner?
JT has been pointing this direction. Mike has been talking around it.
What is important in a pen and how do you measure/evaluate it.
TLTHW
Member
We can also label skill based contest as intended for beginineer, novice etc.
If we are trying to encourage members to increase their participation by showing off their work, then we are struggling with the same dynamic I see on this thread.
852 views,45 posts by about 20 members. We will always have those that are here to watch and learn without commenting and they are most wecome to do so. So how do we get members of all skill levels to increase their participation, and how do we measure our success?
If we are trying to encourage members to increase their participation by showing off their work, then we are struggling with the same dynamic I see on this thread.
852 views,45 posts by about 20 members. We will always have those that are here to watch and learn without commenting and they are most wecome to do so. So how do we get members of all skill levels to increase their participation, and how do we measure our success?