How do you define a Beginner for the Bash?

[mredburn]

We all know a Beginner when we see one. Defining a Beginner however is a big problem for the contests. The biggest problem in defining a Beginner is that many of our new pen turning member bring other skill sets from their work and hobbies that escalates their pen making ability over someone who has never touched a lathe.
We have tried to define it in the following ways
Total number of pens made,
The amount of time they have been a member.
Self Assessment.
Random occurrences in the Zodiac. (mmm maybe not this one)

This year we decided to try and build a contest where the pen to be made would appeal to the newer pen makers for the basic skills allowed and not be of interest to the more advanced turners.

So if you think that we need a "Beginners Contest" how would you do it

 

[Ed McDonnell]

I don't think "beginner" can be defined adequately to actually restrict entries to truly inexperienced pen makers. I also think large value prizes are a big temptation that causes some people to compete below their ability. How about this.

Let members self assess. Someone who has won a pen / blank related prize in any previous bash would not be eligible to compete as a beginner. Make the prizes very low dollar value for the beginner contest, but offer really nice tropies / plaques for the winners. Low dollar prizes will keep out the gold diggers. Nice tropies / plaques will give the beginner winners the positive reinforcement they need to continue to advance.

Ed

 

[BRobbins629]

We have a similar situation for our turning club competition. Self assessment seems to work with some general guidelines. The true beginners know who they are. Encourage members to step up rather than down.

 

[stonepecker]

After 4 years of turning.......I still call myself a beginner.

Somethings I can do.......somethings I can't. The one thing I will do is listen to everyone.

 

[Cmiles1985]

I don't think "beginner" can be defined adequately to actually restrict entries to truly inexperienced pen makers. I also think large value prizes are a big temptation that causes some people to compete below their ability. How about this.

Let members self assess. Someone who has won a pen / blank related prize in any previous bash would not be eligible to compete as a beginner. Make the prizes very low dollar value for the beginner contest, but offer really nice tropies / plaques for the winners. Low dollar prizes will keep out the gold diggers. Nice tropies / plaques will give the beginner winners the positive reinforcement they need to continue to advance.

Ed

I like this idea. Making the prizes be commensurate with the supposed turning skill would be fantastic. For example, beginners contest winners get beginner oriented kits/tools/blanks, etc. and advanced contest winners win prizes like taps, vintage materials, etc.

 

[Cwalker935]

I struggle with how to label myself. I have been turning for 2 yrs, been a member for less than a year, sold some pens, placed 2nd by default (3rd by actual vote) in the library, and been lackluster with actual pen entries. I have successfully done differing types of blank castings. I can turn a pen with a good fit but struggle to achieve a high gloss finish.

My point is that while I do not question the appropriateness of self assessment, I do not know how to fairly assess myself. Some additional guidance would be helpful. However, I do not think that contest placement is necessarily the best gauge, my guess is that there are highly skilled turners that have not placed in an IAP contest.

 

[twinsen]

This is part of my post from BASH 11 feed back. Beginner contest should limit materials, techniques, pen kits and give general guidelines on what a beginner is.

Beginner Contest: Acrylic or wood, no segmenting, no casted blanks, no cnc. Commercially Slimline or Cigar or Sierra style pen kit (unmodified). Have never placed in a BASH (or other) pen making competition. Must consider yourself a beginner.

 

[mredburn]

Sarcasm Alert,

Dear Beginning Pen maker winner,
Congratulation on winning! Here is your plaque and a gift certificate to McDonalds for a free Happy Meal.

As you know your best efforts are not as valuable to the contests as the more advanced Contest winners. Because you only get a GC from MCDs they will get an even better selection of goodies.

Thank you for entering and congratulations on your win!

 

[mredburn]

When originally faced with prize distribution, I thought about giving lesser skill level contests lesser value prizes. I quickly came to the conclusion that no matter what your level of skill, it took your best effort to win the contest. Should your best effort be less rewarded than any other?

Staging prizes to best match the contest they should be awarded to is great, IF you buy the prizes. If your dependant on others charity and generosity as we are it doesnt always work so well.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Dear Beginning Pen maker winner,
Congratulation on winning! Here is your plaque and a gift certificate to McDonalds for a free Happy Meal.

As you know your best efforts are not as valuable to the contests as the more advanced Contest winners. Because you only get a GC from MCDs they will get an even better selection of goodies.

Thank you for entering and congratulations on your win!

If you position it as an insult, I guess some people will perceive it that way. But it doesn't have to be that way.

There would be nothing stopping someone who wants to compete for a valuable prize from stepping up to a more challenging competition and stretching themselves. It might be a really good thing to structure the prizes to encourage people to push themselves rather than offering an incentive to sandbag.

Ed

 

[firewhatfire]

Maybe break it down into finish method. CA is not a beginner sport, friction polish or a wipe on lacquer can be. Do a modified version of the Box of Sundries idea that someone posted. kit, wood and finish supplied to those who want to enter, all get the same grain wood from one source.

As a newbie I had no idea what a burl was, I did not come in with previous woodworking skill. A seasoned woodworker who just bought a lathe has a very good idea and probably a stock of great pen blanks.

Just my 2 cents worth for consideration

Phil

 

[bobleibo]

Ahhhhh! The million dollar question
Heading up the "Simple Ball Point Pen" contest, I had quite a few folks ask me this exact question and I was unable to answer it with what I would call a definitive reply. I also had a few folks back away because they thought they could not compete.
The idea of a beginners contest is to encourage new turners to improve and display their skills, gain some helpful insight and positive critiques from experienced turners and help them move to the next level.
With our members being spread all over the globe, we don't get to see their "work in action", thus as has been mentioned, I think it has to be a self-evaluation and on the honor system. I doubt we'd have a problem with that.
General idea...
member less than 1 year
turned less than 25 pens
no use of CNC/Laser machines
no segmented blanks - this intimidates new people
no self-casted blanks - same reason
...all up for adjustment.
Just my 2 cents worth
Bob

We all know a Beginner when we see one. Defining a Beginner however is a big problem for the contests. The biggest problem in defining a Beginner is that many of our new pen turning member bring other skill sets from their work and hobbies that escalates their pen making ability over someone who has never touched a lathe.

So if you think that we need a "Beginners Contest" how would you do it

 

[jttheclockman]

I don't believe I am drawn into this topic but i am bored so what the heck. I was glad that there was no classification with regards to beginners or pros in the contests because to me there is no such thing. I have seen so-called beginners out perform the seasoned pros here. To me it is about skill levels. Some people are more skilled than others. They always will be. Some people comprehend more than others. Some learn faster than others. Some people put more effort into learning more skills than others. Some people come here just to make a simple pen and are satisfied and give them away. Others come here with the intention to develop their SKILLS as a pen maker. So to define what classification one is in is impossible and always will be so why bother.

With that said. the breakdown of the pen categories this year were more in tune to the skill levels. Don't include the youth category. That should stay. Maybe you can offer the McDonalds thing there:biggrin:. Only you know what you are capable of doing. You understand what you want to get out of penmaking and you know what tools you have and confident in using. You know your skill level. Skill level is far different than breaking down into beginners or pro catagories is what I am trying to say.

What you want is contests that test skill levels and are open to anyone who wants to try them. Again YOU know what you can do or want to do. It has nothing to do with how many pens you made. I made a pen and used CA as a finishing method and nailed it the very first time I tried. Why, because I read and reread all the info available. I have confidence in my skill and the ability to learn and try new things.

Take the kit pens contest. Anyone can enter at any skill level. You are limited by the restrictions put on the contest such as no segmenting, no cnc and so forth. Just use a specific kit and make the best pen you can. Same goes for any other contest. Have a contest strictly for cnc pens then anyone can try but you have to have that machine. Having the tools and SKILL to use them is what wins the contest. You can say this with every contest here. Anyone can enter but you are aware of your skills so you and only you know which contests will give you a chance to win. Again it has nothing to do with how many pens you made or when you joined or how old you are or how many fingers and toes you have.

Bottom line for me is forget the labels of Beginners, Intermediate, Pros and so on and gear the contests toward skills. You and only you will know if you have the skills to play. If not then sit out and watch and learn. Learn and then try things on your own and learn some more. Ask questions and then learn some more and then next year you can join that contest. Simple.

 

[Skewer]

I think people will tend to pick the pen with the most attractive blank with public voting. In that respect, there should be fixed judging, or maybe a weighted system for choosing the winner against a public vote (public vote counts as a judge vote, etc).

Although some beginners jump right into segmenting, I wouldn't expect it to be used in a 'beginner' contest. I assume that is where some of this is stemming from - someone see's some extravagantly segmented/casted/closed end pen win the beginners contest over someone with a well executed simple pen and feels like it isn't fair. I think it makes some of the entries less exciting, but that's going to be the limitation of the contest - less frills, but more accessible for people to enter and probably much harder to judge.

To take it a step further (and I wouldn't want to go this route, just saying), Once you take the 'non-beginner features' out - the public vote will start choosing the pen with amboyna over the maple pen, etc. and the next step would be fixing entry wood types, etc. If everyone did a maple pen, it comes down to photography. Point being, you'll have to allow some variation or it's just going to get boring...and people will just have to deal.

The big thing in the beginners contest should just focus on number of people we can get in - so everyone can enjoy the fun of the competition itself. Maybe throwing in a drawing for a random competitor or two who didn't place would help cover that.

 

[mredburn]

As a bit of background for those of you who are fairly new. Not picking on anyone, we used to use a panel of judges to narrow down the choices and let the members vote on the 5 chosen by the judges. Each contest chair would pick his own panel of judges, It was decided by the members that they would rather do all the choosing, which is why we now use the run off polls.

 

[jttheclockman]

As a bit of background for those of you who are fairly new. Not picking on anyone, we used to use a panel of judges to narrow down the choices and let the members vote on the 5 chosen by the judges. Each contest chair would pick his own panel of judges, It was decided by the members that they would rather do all the choosing, which is why we now use the run off polls.

And that is the way it should remain. It is the members forum. I just wish more members would take the time to vote.

 

[Brooks803]

I do think the suggestion of plain wood, simple kit, no segments or mods. Things of that nature are what you'd want in a "beginner" contest. In the end you want something like this:​

My actual 1st pen ever (never touched a lathe prior!)​

​

Then after a few months of practice​

​

 

[jttheclockman]

I do think the suggestion of plain wood, simple kit, no segments or mods. Things of that nature are what you'd want in a "beginner" contest. In the end you want something like this:​

My actual 1st pen ever (never touched a lathe prior!)​

View attachment 130296​

Then after a few months of practice​

View attachment 130297​

Nice pens but again my point is why can't anyone make your second pen shown, as their very first pen??? If they had the skill and read the threads here and set out to make one of them on their very first try. Does that make them a pro or a beginner. Very first pen. I have seen it done here. Forget the labels. Run a contest for what it is. A test of skills. The guidelines of the person in charge is the only restrictions.

 

[Brooks803]

Nice pens but again my point is why can't anyone make your second pen shown, as their very first pen??? If they had the skill and read the threads here and set out to make one of them on their very first try. Does that make them a pro or a beginner. Very first pen. I have seen it done here. Forget the labels. Run a contest for what it is. A test of skills. The guidelines of the person in charge is the only restrictions.

I agree with you John. I was merely showing what the majority of members here would consider a "beginner" pen vs. one that's had more practice.

I've seen some peoples 1st pen that's better than what I could walk out and do today. It's all subject to interpretation. I say give a guideline and let them decide for themselves. No labels.

 

[jttheclockman]

Nice pens but again my point is why can't anyone make your second pen shown, as their very first pen??? If they had the skill and read the threads here and set out to make one of them on their very first try. Does that make them a pro or a beginner. Very first pen. I have seen it done here. Forget the labels. Run a contest for what it is. A test of skills. The guidelines of the person in charge is the only restrictions.

I agree with you John. I was merely showing what the majority of members here would consider a "beginner" pen vs. one that's had more practice.

I've seen some peoples 1st pen that's better than what I could walk out and do today. It's all subject to interpretation. I say give a guideline and let them decide for themselves. No labels.

There you go!!! Agreed. Guidelines no labels.

 

[TLTHW]

I would define a beginners contest 2 ways.
First, cannot of entered a similar IAP contest before.
Second, limiting the technics and materials that can be used.
I would award 3 main prizes the way we do for all other contests,
but also have several consolation prizes to encourage participation.

 

[TLTHW]

Nice pens but again my point is why can't anyone make your second pen shown, as their very first pen??? If they had the skill and read the threads here and set out to make one of them on their very first try. Does that make them a pro or a beginner. Very first pen. I have seen it done here. Forget the labels. Run a contest for what it is. A test of skills. The guidelines of the person in charge is the only restrictions.

I agree with you John. I was merely showing what the majority of members here would consider a "beginner" pen vs. one that's had more practice.

I've seen some peoples 1st pen that's better than what I could walk out and do today. It's all subject to interpretation. I say give a guideline and let them decide for themselves. No labels.

There you go!!! Agreed. Guidelines no labels.

Agreed!

 

[Curly]

To remove the influance that big prizes might have on entrants, don't announce what the prizes are until the winners are announced. A simple statement in the rules that there will be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place prizes is sufficient. If a contestant is prize driven then they have the wrong motivation for entering.

 

[Sylvanite]

I like some of the ideas expressed here very much.

To run a contest for the beginning penturners, we need to structure it to encourage their participation. I think that means two things:

1. Keep the rules as simple as possible. Over-regulation will turn people off. A bare minimum of kit pen only (no modifications) and plain blank (no segmentation, inlays, etc) of wood or commercially available plastic should suffice. Entries should be judged on fit, finish, and esthetics.
2. Don't scare anybody off. Be as welcoming as possible and make it clear (outside the actual rules) that this contest is intended for those new to turning and penmaking. Offer guidelines as to what makes one experienced but leave the decision to compete up to the entrants. For example, if you've won a prize for a pen contest previously, you are not a beginner. If you've progressed to the point where you're making your own blanks (segmenting, casting, inlaying, etc.), then you aren't a beginner. If you're a seasoned bowl or spindle turner branching out into penmaking, then you probably are not a beginner. Stress that this contest is intended for those new to the hobby and that other contests are available for the experienced.

Offer good prizes - including consolation prizes. Are people really entering contests below their skill level just to get a prize? I hate to think so, and if not, then we shouldn't worry about trying to fix a problem before it arises.

Regards,
Eric

 

[bobleibo]

Sorry, but I adamantly disagree with the idea of removing the labels of beginner, intermediate, etc. Pen turning is just like anything else, we are all beginners when we first start and progress from there. Of course we all learn and comprehend at different rates, but we still learn. When I first started, there was not a chance that I would put my work up against someone who had been turning long enough to not only learn their skills, but to enhance and perfect them. The guy who first taught me could turn a pen with his eyes closed better than me but he took the time to help me along. Having a beginners contest encourages new turners to get involved without the apprehension of getting outclassed by experienced craftsman. The more I got involved, the more curious I got and progressed from there.
The question still remains, how do we encourage more people to want to learn and improve their skills so that they can someday pass them along as many have done for me.

 

[jttheclockman]

Sorry, but I adamantly disagree with the idea of removing the labels of beginner, intermediate, etc. Pen turning is just like anything else, we are all beginners when we first start and progress from there. Of course we all learn and comprehend at different rates, but we still learn. When I first started, there was not a chance that I would put my work up against someone who had been turning long enough to not only learn their skills, but to enhance and perfect them. The guy who first taught me could turn a pen with his eyes closed better than me but he took the time to help me along. Having a beginners contest encourages new turners to get involved without the apprehension of getting outclassed by experienced craftsman. The more I got involved, the more curious I got and progressed from there.
The question still remains, how do we encourage more people to want to learn and improve their skills so that they can someday pass them along as many have done for me.

You can't make someone learn. They joined the site because of a reason. They like pens and maybe like to make them or not. There are those here that never made a pen and yet still join in. As far as encouraging, that again is up to the individual. How driven are they. You can't force feed someone anything. If someone sees something they like they ask questions and I hope try doing it in their own shops. This hobby is self sustained as most hobbies are. There are many many new members joining here every day. But you look how many people joined in those contests. Look how many people voted is another indication of participation. Putting labels on people is to me serves no purpose. As I said just because someone makes one pen or two pens does that make him a beginner??? What if he makes some segmented pen with all kinds of metal inlays. What if he just joined the site but has been turning for 20 years. Now he turns his first pen. Does that make him a beginner??? He knows the ins and outs of turning so he can compensate faster but it is his first pen.

Maybe I am not stating it well enough but all I am saying drop the labels and make skills the main focus.

To me and maybe this is another topic for another day but what I see is there is a lack of thinking outside the box. There is a lack of invention or taking that next step. We have not even scratched the surface of what pen turning can be. Taking that small canvas and showing off your SKILLS that makes people sit up and notice. Creating those WOW pens. You try to get that with some of the contests here. But why can't that same thought process happen with all contests.

OH well I am done on this topic and hopefully some agreement can be reached whatever it is. Good luck to all in the next years Bash. You have an entire year to think about it. Improve those skills. Those newbies that are just joining you will have a whole year under your belt. You can make a lot of pens in a year. You can learn a whole lot in a year. Just saying. How long does a Newbie title last.

 

[twinsen]

I don't believe I am drawn into this topic but i am bored so what the heck. ......... /QUOTE]

Ha! Said the guy who then wrote a novel on the thread and leads in posts.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Sorry, but I adamantly disagree with the idea of removing the labels of beginner, intermediate, etc. Pen turning is just like anything else, we are all beginners when we first start and progress from there. Of course we all learn and comprehend at different rates, but we still learn. When I first started, there was not a chance that I would put my work up against someone who had been turning long enough to not only learn their skills, but to enhance and perfect them. The guy who first taught me could turn a pen with his eyes closed better than me but he took the time to help me along. Having a beginners contest encourages new turners to get involved without the apprehension of getting outclassed by experienced craftsman. The more I got involved, the more curious I got and progressed from there.
The question still remains, how do we encourage more people to want to learn and improve their skills so that they can someday pass them along as many have done for me.

You can't make someone learn. They joined the site because of a reason. They like pens and maybe like to make them or not. There are those here that never made a pen and yet still join in. As far as encouraging, that again is up to the individual. How driven are they. You can't force feed someone anything. If someone sees something they like they ask questions and I hope try doing it in their own shops. This hobby is self sustained as most hobbies are. There are many many new members joining here every day. But you look how many people joined in those contests. Look how many people voted is another indication of participation. Putting labels on people is to me serves no purpose. As I said just because someone makes one pen or two pens does that make him a beginner??? What if he makes some segmented pen with all kinds of metal inlays. What if he just joined the site but has been turning for 20 years. Now he turns his first pen. Does that make him a beginner??? He knows the ins and outs of turning so he can compensate faster but it is his first pen.

Maybe I am not stating it well enough but all I am saying drop the labels and make skills the main focus.

To me and maybe this is another topic for another day but what I see is there is a lack of thinking outside the box. There is a lack of invention or taking that next step. We have not even scratched the surface of what pen turning can be. Taking that small canvas and showing off your SKILLS that makes people sit up and notice. Creating those WOW pens. You try to get that with some of the contests here. But why can't that same thought process happen with all contests.

OH well I am done on this topic and hopefully some agreement can be reached whatever it is. Good luck to all in the next years Bash. You have an entire year to think about it. Improve those skills. Those newbies that are just joining you will have a whole year under your belt. You can make a lot of pens in a year. You can learn a whole lot in a year. Just saying. How long does a Newbie title last.

I agree John, if the contest is for a specific pen type, ie Slimline with plain blank, then the highly skilled Penmakers are hardly going to enter in that contest.
It doesn't matter how you try to "label" a beginner, there are so many factors that come into play. I could have been turning for 20 years or more but never been a member of IAP or made a single pen. That doesn't make my skills less than someone who has made 20? pens.
Just saying.

Bob.

 

[Deadhead]

After 4 years of turning.......I still call myself a beginner.

Somethings I can do.......somethings I can't. The one thing I will do is listen to everyone.

The last sentance reminds me of a quote from Jerry Garcia "If you're in love with your own ideas; the Grateful Dead will kill you".

I hope you all get the point.

 

[plano_harry]

I hate to see restrictions on how good your pen can be. If I recall my first contest, the rule was turning less than 6 months, maybe made less than 10 pens. There were probably 48 pages of additional rules, but that is all I remember.

I went all out (for me) aluminum segmented cigar with CA. My second pen ever. I didn't win :frown: I got beat by an alligator, which is not too surprising. Some might not consider that beginner skill, but a waxed pine unmodified slim is hardly a demonstration of skill and makes for a very boring contest.

I got beat by wow factor, but that is what sells pens, so that is real world. What did I learn from my experience? I learned that wanted to start making alligator pens!

Don't confuse beginner with youth. I am glad to see the youth contests, but beginner is fun too. Old beginners need a challenge.

 

[wyone]

Well I still consider myself a beginner.. been turning for maybe 8 months.. probably 60+ pens and other items. Does that mean I would want to compete in a beginner contest? probably not, because I know I have way more skills than I did 8 months ago. I would not consider it fair for me to compete with someone that has only a few pens under their belt. That said, I have seen some pretty amazing pens that people have produced as their 1st or second pens! They either have a natural skill, or paid better attention.. or something.. as I never could have done those things as a beginner.. in fact I would struggle at my skill level.

Will I be able to compete in the intermediate category..... maybe..... but not with every pen...still have.. not so successful pens... but I would...

Prizes?? well as awesome as the prizes are.. the reason I entered any contests this year was to see how the things I did compared to others. I finished at the bottom of the pack, and you know, that was fine. As I said on another thread, if one other person likes my pen that makes me feel good. Would I like to get every vote, well sure, but the reality is that will never happen.

So I guess for me... I think you have to do the honor system.. with guidelines such as segmenting or casting... but anyone who has looked at pics here can determine which skill level they are for themselves.

 

[Brian G]

I was a pen turning beginner when I drilled, tubed, turned, finished, and assembled my first pen. Everything after that was gaining experience. Some was good, some was bad. Some was gained by reading and observing here, some was serendipitous. All goes into every pen I make. I've made fewer than 150 over two years.

I don't know the answer to the question. Were the Simple Pen contest and Kit contest supposed to be for beginners? If so, I'll forfeit my prizes.

 

[bobleibo]

"Were the Simple Pen contest and Kit contest supposed to be for beginners? If so, I'll forfeit my prizes"

Absolutely not! Brian, you won that contest fair and square based exactly as the contest rules and guidelines were written. I would have rejected entries that did not meet the established criteria.
This thread has so much room for interpretation as to what a beginner is, but it has absolutely no bearing on who won the contest.
Every entry deserved a round of applause~
Cheers

Bob

I was a pen turning beginner when I drilled, tubed, turned, finished, and assembled my first pen. Everything after that was gaining experience. Some was good, some was bad. Some was gained by reading and observing here, some was serendipitous. All goes into every pen I make. I've made fewer than 150 over two years.

I don't know the answer to the question. Were the Simple Pen contest and Kit contest supposed to be for beginners? If so, I'll forfeit my prizes.

 

[jttheclockman]

I don't believe I am drawn into this topic but i am bored so what the heck. ......... /QUOTE]

Ha! Said the guy who then wrote a novel on the thread and leads in posts.

I told you I was bored. The one thing I probably can not do is make a post with one word answers. Just not who I am. It is one of those topics that keeps coming up and there seems to be no answers. Maybe the answer lies in the Bash parties from when they started. Anybody look at those and read the responses.

 

[Brian G]

I went back and read a few of the early BASH archives. I got distracted though and didn't find the answer. There is some cool stuff in the archives. I found one of Brooks803's beginner entries. Looked good.

Bob, thanks. Some of the feedback and spurious comments caught me a little wrong.

 

[Cmiles1985]

I was a pen turning beginner when I drilled, tubed, turned, finished, and assembled my first pen. Everything after that was gaining experience. Some was good, some was bad. Some was gained by reading and observing here, some was serendipitous. All goes into every pen I make. I've made fewer than 150 over two years.

I don't know the answer to the question. Were the Simple Pen contest and Kit contest supposed to be for beginners? If so, I'll forfeit my prizes.

Actually, the thought process behind the Kit Pen Contest was to level the field across all turners. So that beginners and advanced turners could participate in the same space. I really meant to exclude segmented blanks. The focus was supposed to be fit and finish without the use of CNC. I also messed up in picking a 3/8" tube as it was pointed out that most of the new ornate kits are 3/8". The thinking was that in a self-assessed or experience-based contest, a fantastic blank on a higher end kit can have a shoddy finish, but still appeal aesthetically to the populous. On the other hand, the similar, but less "blingy" kit, with a decent blank and perfect fit/finish wouldn't be appropriately selected in the voting process even though it is a "better made" pen. In simple terms: the contest can essentially be bought.

 

[Brooks803]

I went back and read a few of the early BASH archives. I got distracted though and didn't find the answer. There is some cool stuff in the archives. I found one of Brooks803's beginner entries. Looked good.

Bob, thanks. Some of the feedback and spurious comments caught me a little wrong.

Wow, you went WAY back then! What's funny is my wife WON that year Has maybe made 5 pens since then.

 

[Quality Pen]

I like the economics approach mentioned early on.

Make the prizes "worth it" to the prospective group.

For example, let's take an extreme example: Prize for beginners is a $500 gift card and prizes for intermediate is $525 in gift cards. Well, if someone was on the fence they will likely, on average, go with the beginner category. It's basic incentives IMO.

But what if the beginner prize is $25 dollars worth of beginner type materials (unexceptional wood, average quality pen kits). And then the intermediate prize is $50 and higher end winnings. I think ON AVERAGE the person would be incentivized to try for the higher end prize.

Keep in mind, this does absolutely nothing to the written rules. It only aims to guide peoples' behavior for their own self interest. I think at the very least this HELPS a lot more than simply giving every class the same prize. If we look for the singular best answer, we'll probably never reach that pinnacle .

 

[plano_harry]

I just don't think @ 800x600 that you can properly judge fit and finish. You can tell good and bad, but differentiate first from second place in two quality pens, I don't think so. We don't accurately judge fit and finish, we vote for the pen we like best - which to me is what matters anyway. ☺

 

[jttheclockman]

Well I still consider myself a beginner.. been turning for maybe 8 months.. probably 60+ pens and other item

s. Does that mean I would want to compete in a beginner contest? probably not, because I know I have way more skills than I did 8 months ago. I would not consider it fair for me to compete with someone that has only a few pens under their belt. That said, I have seen some pretty amazing pens that people have produced as their 1st or second pens! They either have a natural skill, or paid better attention.. or something.. as I never could have done those things as a beginner.. in fact I would struggle at my skill level.

Will I be able to compete in the intermediate category..... maybe..... but not with every pen...still have.. not so successful pens... but I would...

Prizes?? well as awesome as the prizes are.. the reason I entered any contests this year was to see how the things I did compared to others. I finished at the bottom of the pack, and you know, that was fine. As I said on another thread, if one other person likes my pen that makes me feel good. Would I like to get every vote, well sure, but the reality is that will never happen.

So I guess for me... I think you have to do the honor system.. with guidelines such as segmenting or casting... but anyone who has looked at pics here can determine which skill level they are for themselves.

hello Mitch

Not to beat a dead horse but i thought i saw it move a bit. Not picking on you or anything like that. So do not take this the wrong way. Maybe we need other so called beginners to try to answer.

But here is what I do not get. When will you drop the BEGINNER title? When do you you move up to INTERMEDIATE?? What is the difference between the 2??? 60 pens seems quite a lot of pens to hone the art of turning something round. Is there an amount of pens or is it time in years you call yourself a pen turner or is the time at a lathe, that dictates the rating system?? When you say you can not compete with the Intermediates or the so called pros, what makes you say that??? What do they do that you can not do??? I am seriously curious. All are privy to the same materials, kits, basic tools (excluding cnc and special tools of this nature but then again you will never compete with them unless you have the money to buy them), finishing materials, casting materials (again you need them to compete) and so forth.

I think we get confused when you see people like Skiprat and others show those amazing pens they make and call them the pros. What separates them from you is a couple things, tools, the ability to see artistically things that are out of the box, and ability to transform them to a pen. If that is what you are judging yourself on then you may never get there. I know I won't because I will never go and buy a CNC machine or lasers or probably a metal lathe either. But that does not make me less of a pen maker than they are. I may do things differently because of my tools and my TALENT or SKILLS.

If it is fit and finish you are comparing to, heck you can correct that with your very next pen. There is enough info posted here both in the library and the threads in the forums that can turn anyone into a good pen maker if they apply themselves and want to learn. You are what you make yourself into.

I think people look at pens with that WOW factor and say I wish I can do that. They surely are a pro. AS a beginner I can not do that. To that I say B--S. All levels of so called pen makers just need to look and observe and trust your imagination and push your talents. Enough with the titles.

As I said maybe we need other people who consider themselves BEGINNERS to answer this question and we all might get a better insight because I surely do not get it. I was a beginner when I first made my first pen and after that I was honing my skills and practicing just like a Doctor does. They will never become pros because they are always practicing.

Again I mean no offense to anyone and I am sorry for beating this dead horse.