Heartful Prayers to those in Texas

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DrD

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In my humble opinion we can start by completely and total eliminating all these dad-gum shootum' up videogames. In these games, kids trick out an M4, put an Eotech on it and blow up "anybody" they want with wanton abandon and NO consequences, all to win a game. Couple this ban with getting these kids back in church and studying God's Word. They need to learn the fear of the Almighty, respect and self-control. I started shooting at an early age; the difference being I knew God, and I knew I was taking life away for something had had life, and was done for only 1 of 2 reasons: food or self defense when no other means would work. Until this younger generation learns why God put them here, we need to expect to react with greater, more accurate, more precise, swiftly delivered force!
 
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bsshog40

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In my humble opinion we can start by completely and total eliminating all these dad-gum shootum' up videogames. In these games, kids trick out an M4, put an Eotech on it and blow up "anybody" they want with wanton abandon and NO consequences, all to win a game. Couple this ban with getting these kids back in church and studying God's Word. They need to learn the fear of the Almighty, respect and self-control. I started shooting at an early age; the difference being I knew God, and I knew I was taking life away for something had had life, and was done for only 1 of 2 reasons: food or self defense when no other means would work. Until this younger generation learns why God put them here, we need to expect to react with greater, more accurate, more precise, swiftly delivered force!
Yep!!!
 

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Arnold

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Let's change the wording. Your point is correct. "Much prefer a SafeZone than target rich"
I worded it the way I did because making any area a gun-free zone is just setting it up for the bad guy...Bad guys don't follow laws, so the only ones unarmed are the good guys...Let's see, I want to shoot up a school...Which one do I shoot? The one where nobody is armed or the one where some staff and possibly an armed security officer could shoot back. Tough decision?? I think not... As someone once said, " to be in a room where the only person that has a gun is the crazy guy is as scary as it gets"...
 
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Joebobber

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It's so much more than just video games. It's the TV, the music, social media, heck even the way us "adults" talk to and about each other. It's in the way people are being divided. There is not much respect for each other.
 

WriteON

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I worded it the way I did because making any area a gun-free zone is just setting it up for the bad guy...Bad guys don't follow laws, so the only ones unarmed are the good guys...Let's see, I want to shoot up a school...Which one do I shoot? The one where nobody is armed or the one where some staff and possibly an armed security officer could shoot back. Tough decision?? I think not... As someone once said, " to be in a room where the only person that has a gun is the crazy guy is as scary as it gets"...
I got robbed at gunpoint. I know the feeling. A 5 shot revolver is an assault weapon. One person getting killed by a lunatic is too many. As for your comment I'd like schools to be an armed camp by the proper authorities. So far nothing else is working. I'm all for it.
I substituted SafeZone for prison. To be direct "SafeZone" meaning we'll protected… not gun free. I agree with your post.
 
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jttheclockman

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My town is a small town and every school has a police officer assigned to them with the high school has 2. I do not agree with having teachers armed. They are not trained and it takes a certain type person to handle killing someone. Look at the veterans coming back from war and reentering society. Most policeman never fire their weapons except target practice. A whole lot different than shooting at a piece of paper. As I said laws need to be written or rewritten to meet today's needs. Those have to be first steps in this madness.

Boy every day the reports coming out of Texas keep changing and are really getting worse and heads will roll. I sure hope there is learning be done from this.
 

sorcerertd

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We as a society need to pay more attention to the people around us and say something if things do not look right. Do not sweep it under the rug.
Indeed. This problem didn't exist when we had "nosey neighbors" and parents weren't delusional enough to think their children "would never do that". Most of us have heard the saying "It takes a village to raise a child". Sadly, our "village" is a disaster, certainly not fit to be a parent at all. I don't think we even realize how poor of an example we are setting for our children. Forget about reasons. Forget about blame. While we're praying for those involved, how about also praying that we, as a society, can rise above this behavior and then try to set an example every day by showing respect to others and lifting each other up?
 

bsshog40

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My town is a small town and every school has a police officer assigned to them with the high school has 2. I do not agree with having teachers armed. They are not trained and it takes a certain type person to handle killing someone. Look at the veterans coming back from war and reentering society. Most policeman never fire their weapons except target practice. A whole lot different than shooting at a piece of paper. As I said laws need to be written or rewritten to meet today's needs. Those have to be first steps in this madness.

Boy every day the reports coming out of Texas keep changing and are really getting worse and heads will roll. I sure hope there is learning be done from this.
I have to disagree a little JT. I think teachers, who want to be, should be trained and able to carry. These schools need more protection at hand then waiting for someone to show up to save the day after bullets have already been spent. Also, gun training isn't "Train To Kill", it's training is designed to "Defend Yourself"! Big difference! This is the main reason we have the 2nd Amendment!
 
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jttheclockman

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I have to disagree a little JT. I think teachers, who want to be, should be trained and able to carry. These schools need more protection at hand then waiting for someone to show up to save the day after bullets have already been spent. Also, gun training isn't "Train To Kill", it's training is designed to "Defend Yourself"! Big difference! This is the main reason we have the 2nd Amendment!
A matter of opinion. I have 2 teachers on my block and this discussion has come up before this and they do not want that responsibility but again it should not come down to the teachers. They signed up to teach and not kill people. Gun training is to kill. Shoot at the biggest mass. We will have to disagree. As do all politicians and that is why nothing gets done. So many more things can be done before you put guns in the hands of teachers. Hire retired police officers, retired military personnel and work out some sort of payment that fits the budget. It can be done.
 
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DrD

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A matter of opinion. I have 2 teachers on my block and this discussion has come up before this and they do not want that responsibility but again it should not come down to the teachers. They signed up to teach and not kill people. Gun training is to kill. Shoot at the biggest mass. We will have to disagree. As do all politicians and that is why nothing gets done. So many more things can be done before you put guns in the hands of teachers. Hire retired police officers, retired military personnel and work out some sort of payment that fits the budget. It can be done.
Jt, in one sense you are correct, and in another Bobby is correct. Perhaps many/some/ a lot/ a few teachers do not want the responsibility of carrying a gun, and they should not carry. There are another number of teachers who do want to carry, and they should be trained and be allowed to do so. Personally I am with the 2nd group. As a college professor - retired - I was usually armed - concealed of course, and nobody knew this, nobody. But I was prepared to use my gun if the situation warranted.
There are indeed other things that can be done as well. Sean Hannity has long advocated using trained professionals and paying them by giving them tax breaks, ie no federal, state, nor local income taxes. I favor such a plan and suggest we look to our retired Navy seal, Army Green Beret, etc communities for such volunteers.
Ever been to a diamond store in NYC? Those that I have been to ALL had a 2 door interlocking entrance - with various permutations. Point is one person can get in the first door, which then closes and locks. The second door is opened from the inside after store personnel "verify" the person wanting entry. Slow, BUT VERY effective. Slow(ed) entry may be a necessary trade-off. Also, metal detectors should be used at EVERY door - not a terribly expensive tool. And there are lots and lots of other options as well. BUT, in my opinion, on-site, trained, committed, armed personnel are about the only answer to deal with those truly evil persons bent on killing children.
 

Arnold

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I am for school faculty having a CCW permit and being allowed to carry on school property, they would actually be able to defend against an attack which would potentially minimize deaths...Armed bystanders have stopped shootings in other places... Additionally, arming school faculty could act as a deterrent, if bad guys knew teachers and others were armed, they might be less likely to carry out an attack...
 

bsshog40

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A sheriff friend of mine once told me that the reason they train to shoot center mass is to stop the threat. I have heard people claim they would not want to kill a person, that they would rather wound them to stop them. Two main reasons this is not feasible. #1 The person could be on some sort of drug that they don't feel or react to the wound instantly and can still be a threat to whomever. #2 Wounding a person is an act of premeditation to shoot someone as you have the time to aim. Then you can possibly be charged by law or sued by the attacker. This is why you are taught to shoot center mass to Stop Your Attacker!! Btw, I live in Tx. and you would be surprised at the number of teachers that already have a CCW license but are not allowed to carry on their school gounds.
 
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DrD

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A sheriff friend of mine once told me that the reason they train to shoot center mass is to stop the threat. I have heard people claim they would not want to kill a person, that they would rather wound them to stop them. Two main reasons this is not feasible. #1 The person could be on some sort of drug that they don't feel or react to the wound instantly and can still be a threat to whomever. #2 Wounding a person is an act of premeditation to shoot someone as you have the time to aim. Then you can possibly be charged by law or sued by the attacker. This is why you are taught to shoot center mass to Stop Your Attacker!! Btw, I live in Tx. and you would be surprised at the number of teachers that already have a CCW license but are not allowed to carry on their school gounds.
You are correct Bobby - but then you don't need me telling you that you are correct. There is one additional driving force for center of mass shots. If you have ever been in a situation where, in fear for your life, you are forced to shoot, there are a whole bunch of things that happen to you - psychologically and physiologically. You loose most - if not all - of your fine motor skills, you loose much of your vision - tunnel vision, you loose a lot of your ability to think - you unknowingly find yourself in "reaction mode." Most people, no matter how well trained, in that situation, could not purposefully shoot at and hit an arm or leg , heck they usually cannot distinguish anything but a big, somewhat blurred image - hence center of mass. Oh, and did I mention the perp is rarely obliging to be perfectly still, but rather insists on moving - a little or a lot. Thus the training - find center of mass and pull the trigger twice - double tap. This gives you the best chance of surviving and also ending the threat.
 

bsshog40

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You are correct Bobby - but then you don't need me telling you that you are correct. There is one additional driving force for center of mass shots. If you have ever been in a situation where, in fear for your life, you are forced to shoot, there are a whole bunch of things that happen to you - psychologically and physiologically. You loose most - if not all - of your fine motor skills, you loose much of your vision - tunnel vision, you loose a lot of your ability to think - you unknowingly find yourself in "reaction mode." Most people, no matter how well trained, in that situation, could not purposefully shoot at and hit an arm or leg , heck they usually cannot distinguish anything but a big, somewhat blurred image - hence center of mass. Oh, and did I mention the perp is rarely obliging to be perfectly still, but rather insists on moving - a little or a lot. Thus the training - find center of mass and pull the trigger twice - double tap. This gives you the best chance of surviving and also ending the threat.
Yes sir. My wifes ccw trainer always emphasized that if your life is threatened and the attacker is coming at you, Unload Your Clip. For the reasons you stated, that you don't even know if your hitting/stopping them in the state of mind that you are put in to. No one wants to have to kill someone, but no one wants to be killed either.
 

jttheclockman

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Jt, in one sense you are correct, and in another Bobby is correct. Perhaps many/some/ a lot/ a few teachers do not want the responsibility of carrying a gun, and they should not carry. There are another number of teachers who do want to carry, and they should be trained and be allowed to do so. Personally I am with the 2nd group. As a college professor - retired - I was usually armed - concealed of course, and nobody knew this, nobody. But I was prepared to use my gun if the situation warranted.
There are indeed other things that can be done as well. Sean Hannity has long advocated using trained professionals and paying them by giving them tax breaks, ie no federal, state, nor local income taxes. I favor such a plan and suggest we look to our retired Navy seal, Army Green Beret, etc communities for such volunteers.
Ever been to a diamond store in NYC? Those that I have been to ALL had a 2 door interlocking entrance - with various permutations. Point is one person can get in the first door, which then closes and locks. The second door is opened from the inside after store personnel "verify" the person wanting entry. Slow, BUT VERY effective. Slow(ed) entry may be a necessary trade-off. Also, metal detectors should be used at EVERY door - not a terribly expensive tool. And there are lots and lots of other options as well. BUT, in my opinion, on-site, trained, committed, armed personnel are about the only answer to deal with those truly evil persons bent on killing children.
What you talk about is called "Man-Trap" doors. I worked in NY and worked on a few banks and installed the security on those doors. They work well for that situation but remember people must exit as well in mass numbers if trying to escape. Those doors work both ways. Any over ride is from command center. As I said use the resources available to each town and hiring retired personnel that has been trained already is a no brainer and pay and other specifics can be worked out. Each town and each state can implement their own safety devices and some do. Most do not go far enough. I have installed cameras in schools. I know of schools that have metal detectors. You both talk of carrying guns for teachers and in some states this may work but as mentioned they maybe trained to use such firearms but are they trained to deal with the phycological aspects and the lawsuits to follow. ? One thing to learn to shoot at a paper target than a real person. Look at recent instances from cops shooting what were thought to be suspects in various towns and how the cops were effected when mistakes were made. It is fact that most cops have not fired their weapons in the line of duty in their careers. Sane people just are effected differently. It was mentioned by a politician to have one door in a school. Come on, fire codes would never allow that. Now make those other doors open only from the inside has merit so only way in is through front door. Complacency many times takes place and people chock doors open or unlock doors for easier access for them and students but then that one time happens and all safety is lost. Having a safety patrol roam the schools and keep things on track can be a tool. Many things need to be looked at closer and more needs to be done to protect innocent lives.

It is talked about doing something with healthcare for mental people. Yes do it. I am repeating myself now but we all need to open our eyes and become more aware of things around us. The use of social media by young is a tool that needs to be monitored. People here talk about their upbringing and I too was brought up with a purpose in life to be the best I can be and that starts with parents and family. Will we ever stop the sick and deranged, no. But lets not make it so easy to get weapons of mass destruction. There is no place in society to have them. See something say something. The public is the eyes and ears of law enforcement.
 
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DrD

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You make good points JT. I have now heard that leaving a door ajar or chocked may be a possibility in Uvaldi. You also mentioned the psychological aftermath of shooting someone, and this is definitely an issue; this is why I support hiring retired or ex operators. Expertly trained operators can handle the after-action fallout, or should be able to. After-action law suits? It sickens my soul that criminals are made into heroes. There are those in law enforcement that don't do enough - the school cop in Fla, those milling about outside the school in Uvaldi, and there are those who go too far and both situations should be dealt with appropriately. BUT let us NOT make heroes out of criminals!
Answers for the current times? There have been some good suggestions put forward here; unfortunately I don't think any of us are in Uvaldi. But if we were to become active/proactive in our individual communities, we maybe can keep this from happening again - and unfortunately it most likely will happen again. At 77, I no longer am able to charge into an active shooter situation, but if asked, I can sure train someone to shoot tactically and guide them in preparation for the after-action fallout.
 

Arnold

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What you talk about is called "Man-Trap" doors. I worked in NY and worked on a few banks and installed the security on those doors. They work well for that situation but remember people must exit as well in mass numbers if trying to escape. Those doors work both ways. Any over ride is from command center. As I said use the resources available to each town and hiring retired personnel that has been trained already is a no brainer and pay and other specifics can be worked out. Each town and each state can implement their own safety devices and some do. Most do not go far enough. I have installed cameras in schools. I know of schools that have metal detectors. You both talk of carrying guns for teachers and in some states this may work but as mentioned they maybe trained to use such firearms but are they trained to deal with the phycological aspects and the lawsuits to follow. ? One thing to learn to shoot at a paper target than a real person. Look at recent instances from cops shooting what were thought to be suspects in various towns and how the cops were effected when mistakes were made. It is fact that most cops have not fired their weapons in the line of duty in their careers. Sane people just are effected differently. It was mentioned by a politician to have one door in a school. Come on, fire codes would never allow that. Now make those other doors open only from the inside has merit so only way in is through front door. Complacency many times takes place and people chock doors open or unlock doors for easier access for them and students but then that one time happens and all safety is lost. Having a safety patrol roam the schools and keep things on track can be a tool. Many things need to be looked at closer and more needs to be done to protect innocent lives.

It is talked about doing something with healthcare for mental people. Yes do it. I am repeating myself now but we all need to open our eyes and become more aware of things around us. The use of social media by young is a tool that needs to be monitored. People here talk about their upbringing and I too was brought up with a purpose in life to be the best I can be and that starts with parents and family. Will we ever stop the sick and deranged, no. But lets not make it so easy to get weapons of mass destruction. There is no place in society to have them. See something say something. The public is the eyes and ears of law enforcement.
You do have some good points...As a former NRA rifle and pistol instructor, training a person about firearm safety, marksmanship, and self-defense is not a problem...The problem lies in getting the trainee to go to the rifle range once a month to stay proficient...As far as the phycological aspects I would say they are alive and can get help...For the lawsuits and legal problems, a CCW holder can buy CCW insurance for around $139 a year to cover legal representation for both civil and legal problems...
 

jttheclockman

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My heartfelt condolences to all affected by this tragedy. Whatever your views no one deserved this.
What you posted and what Mark said are exactly true. I did not want to go down the what if trails and what should be done or what we would like to be done. There is a time and a place for that and for those who can really make a difference. I do thank those that did sway off abit to keep it civil and points were made and counterpoints too but it is a tragedy that this even takes place and becoming all too common here in the States. Those familys are changed forever. Will be going to church tonight and will light a candle and say that prayer for these familys and those innocent souls that left us way too early. May they Rest in Peace.
 

Arnold

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Yes, I fully agree. Thank You! That was the entire purpose of the OP, not what followed.
While going off-topic helps to create new content on a thread and helps keep members engaged, there is a limit on how far you can take it but I don't think that limit was reached in this thread...This is just my opinion and I am sure some members will disagree...
 

Woodchipper

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The kids of today are not raised like us older folks were. We were taught to respect people. Not all, but most kids today are coddled, we have feminization of boys, pick your gender, playing violent video games all day and no accountability. I don't think the gernerations of today are mature at 18 anymore. I think they should raise the age to 21 for gun purchase. I also think that social media influences kids of today in much more ways than people want to believe.
Hmmm. A young person of 21 can't buy a firearm but can get one at 18 by enlisting in the military? The homework for those here is to research the Sullivan Act of New York City.
 

bsshog40

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Hmmm. A young person of 21 can't buy a firearm but can get one at 18 by enlisting in the military? The homework for those here is to research the Sullivan Act of New York City.
I completely understand what you are saying. I'm a veteran myself. As I stated earlier, the generations of today are different from my generations of growing up. One thing to realize is the military is a controlled environment. Society is not so much controlled.
 

Woodchipper

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Signs- Will be ignored.
Age of 21- Won't work as many criminals are over 21.
Assault rifle- Semiautomatic as thousands of firearms. BATFE also categorized the fully automatic rifles the same but under Class 3 as machine guns which require extensive background chek and a $200 fee for each one.
Background check- Would they need one to steal firearms.
Ban assault rifles- They will be smuggled across the border with drugs. Talk about a profitable enterprise!
 

jttheclockman

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Signs- Will be ignored.
Age of 21- Won't work as many criminals are over 21.
Assault rifle- Semiautomatic as thousands of firearms. BATFE also categorized the fully automatic rifles the same but under Class 3 as machine guns which require extensive background chek and a $200 fee for each one.
Background check- Would they need one to steal firearms.
Ban assault rifles- They will be smuggled across the border with drugs. Talk about a profitable enterprise!
Please stop knocking all things that should be done. I am so sick and tired of reading. Have to do something. No law is going to stop the criminal but WHY I ASK MAKE IT SO EASY. Please enough already!!!!!! We need to do something and stop this madness. It is now becoming a copycat thing and everyday there is a new shooting. Just as people have rights to own weapons so do people have the right to live a peaceful life. More guns is not the answer. Please stop. This is not what this thread was about so please stop. Go fight the gun laws somewhere else. Going to have this thread shut down.
 

ZanderPommo

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Li

I think that's called "prison" not "school."
I'm not sure that the Federal employees, celebrities, or banks think of themselves as "prisons" by being surrounded by armed security and surveillance 24/7. In fact, they thank the security officers for keeping them safe, daily. I happen to know this first hand, it being my job and all. Strange we do this for everyone in these "important" positions, but instead of doing it in schools we post signs, and when things go wrong we call men with guns to rescue them. In my profession our response time is…well it's instantaneous…because we're there. In Uvalde it took dozens of officers 77 minutes. Which would you prefer for your children?…
You're letting your blind and uninformed political opinions stand in the way of the safety of the most innocent among us.
If I could quit my job at my current place of work and take a job applying my training and experience towards guarding a school, I would put in my two weeks tomorrow, and I'd enjoy going to work every day, because I would have even more of a sense of purpose in doing my duty.
 

ZanderPommo

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Please stop knocking all things that should be done. I am so sick and tired of reading. Have to do something. No law is going to stop the criminal but WHY I ASK MAKE IT SO EASY. Please enough already!!!!!! We need to do something and stop this madness. It is now becoming a copycat thing and everyday there is a new shooting. Just as people have rights to own weapons so do people have the right to live a peaceful life. More guns is not the answer. Please stop. This is not what this thread was about so please stop. Go fight the gun laws somewhere else. Going to have this thread shut down.
Insofar as security and producing hard targets, guns are actually invariably, verifiably, statistically the answer. Ask yourself why (depending on the study) between 92 and 98% of mass shootings occur in gun free zones, when they account for a fraction of a percent of society. Ask Steven Williford who used his AR-15 to cripple the Sutherland Springs shooter if he should be allowed that weapon. Ask what in our society is producing young people who are willing to commit mass murder, when a higher percentage of young adults owned guns in the past. Ask why school shootings became more common even as yearly firearm crime dropped steadily from the 1980s to 2019. Finally, ask yourself how almost every mass shooting ENDS.

Don't let blind fear of something inanimate that you do not understand cloud your judgment. AK-47s have been in civilian hands since the early 1950s and AR-15s since 1963. A gun in the hands of a teenager doesn't make them suddenly become evil. If they wanted to commit mass murder they'll find a way. Let's figure out how to prevent young people from becoming purposeless evil monsters and we won't have to talk about guns.
 
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