Having the worst time with CA glue finish- help?

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underdog

underdog

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I'm sure this question has been asked a million times (as well as answered).

How do you successfully apply CA glue finish?:confused:

I've finished 8 of my 24+ pens, and I am only happy with the finish on 5 of those.:mad: And it took an inordinant amount of time to apply the finish. I think I've exhausted the requisite number of mistakes one can make. I'm ready to try something that will work, and not take an hour (or two) per pen....:redface:

Here's the history of mistakes. (If you don't care, just skip this and give me your answer).
A couple years ago I tried Russ Fairfields BLO/CA method (on one pen), but failed to implement it because I didn't have any fine sandpaper. Finest thing I had was some ratty 325 (or possibly some 400) grit. So naturally I sanded off everything before I even got started. Finally gave up and applied several coats of laquer. I wore the plating and finish off that pen before the transmission finally gave up. It's sitting in my "repair box" now... (I wish they made the "presidential" in a better finish than 24K. I like that clip style...

This time around, I have 24 pens to make and figured I'd set up an assembly line. I have no trouble with any of the steps, but when it comes to putting the CA finish on... GAH!:angry:

I watched a couple of Youtube vids and figured out to use paper towel as an applicator (I've seen that plastic package padding used also) with the lathe speed turned down. One guys says not to use paper towel that acts as a catalyst (when it instantly cures and starts smoking upon application). The Bounty brand certainly does smoke though (should I use the blue shop towels instead?).
I've seen one vid where the guy uses three applications of thick CA sanding with 800 grit between coats (no accelerator), then a final sanding (w/800) and buffing.
Then I saw another vid where a guy puts 20 coats of thin CA with no sanding in between, but uses accelerator between coats. Then he starts with the micromesh and goes up to 12,000.
Then I saw another vid where a guy puts 10 coats of thin CA on with lots of accelorator between coats, and then runs through the micromesh.
All three of these methods only took a few minutes.....

I've only had partial success with the thin CA, and I had to apply at least 4 coats in order to have any coverage that I didn't sand through- starting with 600. I used the Bounty paper towel to apply it (glued it to my fingers quite a few times), and it kicks off the glue pretty quick. Sand at 600 or 1000 grit between coats to level it off, then wetsanded/buffed with micromesh after letting it cure at least 15 minutes.

I've had a lot of trouble getting a level surface, a lot of trouble sanding through, and in one instance, could NOT get the glue to stick to a spot of the blank (perhaps I had some acetone on that spot?).

And last but not least, it took me four hours to finish 5 pens yesterday. This is just not acceptable.:frown:

You got some advice, tips, help for me? Fire away. And thanks!

*Edit* Oh.. I did set up a couple fan to carry the fumes away, so that helped immensely. I'm not wheezing this morning... I did see the CA that doesn't emit those noxious gasses, and was tempted to buy some of the Gold stuff...
 
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CA Finish

Check Red River web site. I use the process given there. It uses BLO with CA and it drys fast. You can put alot of coats on fast and the finish is excellent.
Good Luck:biggrin:
Curt
 
Jim:
You didn't mention (or I missed it) WET sanding with 600 grit after the CA is applied. Without wet sanding and creating the slurry, you WILL ALMOST ALWAYS sand through the finish.

My method is a little different that those methods, but is the method that works best in my shop:
Step one: dry sand to 1800, slightly undersizing the finished size.

Step two: apply three coats of CA accelerator to clean sanding residue:

Step Three: Add 1 DROP (no more) BLO to a clean paper towel, followed by 3 coats of thin CA. I do this at 1800 rpms. Moving the towel back and forth rapidly, I can tell by the smoke coming off the paper towel when each coat is dry.

Step four: add multiple coats of MEDIUM CA until the pen is barely oversized.

Step five: WET sand starting at 600 and go to 12,000 at 1800 rpms. Stop the lathe and cross sand between each grit.

Step six: apply NOVUS II with the lathe off. Let the NOVUS "almost dry" usually about 1 minute, the buff off the NOVUS with a clean folded paper towel at 3900 rpms.

Step seven: apply Mcguires Plastx at 3900 and buff off.

This always gives my a mirror like finish.

I hope this helps. There are thousands of ways to do CA. This is just my "fail safe" method.
 
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Read Russ Fairfield's treatise on sanding and don't skip any steps. Read it again and practice. Then use the batting that Fairfield talks about, I believe it's on his site about finishing with CA glue. Take the time to let each coat of CA glue dry, no need to use accelerator. Use MM with water, mineral spirits, or whatever. If there are high spots. start with 400, then 600 wet sanding, then MM. Make modifications to suit your personality 'cause no two people are the same. Different weather conditions will require some changes. Be flexible, remembering that your finish won't be any better than your sanding.

Remember to be safe around your equipment. I didn't and had to take my mangled finger to the ER yesterday so my two dozen pen order will have to wait several weeks or months.:redface:
 
I usually start with a couple coats of thin CA for penetration into the wood, then build up with medium CA and finish similar to Andy's method above.

What is the purpose for using BLO on the finish under the CA? I've seen several talk about it, but haven't ever read a reasoning for using it.
 
So I tried some variation on Andy's method this afternoon, and WOW! I got a good finish in just a few minutes. I turned the pen, sanded it, put the finish on and assembled it in less than an hour...

Thanks for the tips. I think one of my problems was just not putting enough coats on, and the other was not using some oil finish (I used Watco since my BLO had dried up) along with medium CA. I put about four coats on after the initial coat of thin, and then wet sanded up to 12,000, and what a shine!

I think I can do this now. :smile: This was the last thing that really hung me up. Finishing was killing me...
 
nativewooder said:
Remember to be safe around your equipment. I didn't and had to take my mangled finger to the ER yesterday so my two dozen pen order will have to wait several weeks or months.:redface:
Click to expand...

With no insurance safety is on my mind every time I walk into the shop. Hospital would own me for the rest of my life something happens.
 
Jim:
I'm glad "the method" worked for you! Now, for a head's up....On Cocobolo, BOW, Purpleheart and other "oily" woods, increase the "ca accelerator" to 4 coats and OMIT any finish oils such as Watco or BLO. Those named woods are so oily that the problem is GETTING RID OF THE MOISTURE.

Wtih the named woods above, any remaining moisture will cause a clouding effect under the finish. DAMHIKT:)
 
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The ONLY reason I use the single drop of BLO is to give the sanded wood a little more "pop". The CA accelerator tends to "dull down" the sanded blank, the tiny bit of BLO brings back shine.

In my shop, BLO is NOT NEEDED to accelerate to cure. IF ANYTHING, I have thought about moving the final CA steps from Medium CA to Thick CA. In the Georgia heat and humidity, Thin CA sets TOO QUICKLY.
 
You have had the same frustrations I have had, but let me tell you I have found the best finish process, for me anyway. It was all thanks to a nice YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqzXtpzvw0A

I pretty much do the same process, except I sand my pens all the way to 12000 grit. Then I apply 6 coats of superglue, then use BLO (a small amount) while applying another 6 coats. Then I wet sand from 600 to 12000 again (be very careful while doing this, make sure you clean after every grit). Once done the pen is just stunning.

The only problem I had was they said in the video you don't have to worry about your bushings getting stuck - WRONG. The way I take care of it is I put some wood polish on the ends of my bushings that sit against the wood. Then before I separate I take a turning tool (your choice, I use a separator) and work you way up the bushing to the pen end (don't hit the pen). Once done it should be very easy to remove the bushing and you will have a very nice pen.

Have fun! And keep on turning :glasses-cool:
 
CA finish

As long as we are on the subject of CA for a finish, I also need some help.
I'm an old timer who has believed that friction finishes were the only finish to use......None of that new fangled stuff (CA) for me. Now I'm eating crow.

When finishing with CA, I cant seem to get the application with paper towels down. Every time I use it, I sand to 12K and start applying the glue. Yes I have watched the videos on you tube, but nobody seems to talk about (application)
Which glue is best?
Do you apply it with paper, hit it with the accelerator and back away?
How much pressure should I put on the glue after applying if any??????
Do you use accelerator between coats???????
How many coats
It seems that every time I use it, the CA the finish comes out looking muddled and has to be sanded with 320. That means that I have eliminated my CA from the blank and I have to start over.
Low RPM, High RPM???????

I've been turning for 45 years and am a member of the Guild for my past work, but this new technique has me stumped!

Anybody wants to email me with answers: okiebugg200@cox.net
 
okiebugg said:
As long as we are on the subject of CA for a finish, I also need some help.
I'm an old timer who has believed that friction finishes were the only finish to use......None of that new fangled stuff (CA) for me. Now I'm eating crow.

When finishing with CA, I cant seem to get the application with paper towels down. Every time I use it, I sand to 12K and start applying the glue. Yes I have watched the videos on you tube, but nobody seems to talk about (application)
Which glue is best?
Do you apply it with paper, hit it with the accelerator and back away?
How much pressure should I put on the glue after applying if any??????
Do you use accelerator between coats???????
How many coats
It seems that every time I use it, the CA the finish comes out looking muddled and has to be sanded with 320. That means that I have eliminated my CA from the blank and I have to start over.
Low RPM, High RPM???????

I've been turning for 45 years and am a member of the Guild for my past work, but this new technique has me stumped!

Anybody wants to email me with answers: okiebugg200@cox.net
Click to expand...
Hi Jim, I will try and answer some of your questions. Rather than send them by e-mail, I am posting here so others with the same questions can read too.
Paper towels or other application materials are a key part of the process. I see you are in Oklahoma so the humidity should be on the low side. Humidity is another big factor since high humidity sets up the CA faster. Paper towels used for application sets up the CA faster too.
The trick with application is you need to be quick or use a lubricant like BLO, or else the paper can get glued to the blank. Using BLO allows you to keep the towel on the CA as it sets with out the towel becoming one-with-the-blank.
I prefer to go without BLO, so I apply the CA coat quickly with Bounty paper towels, give it a few seconds to begin to set and mist it slightly with accelerator to avoid the wait time for full set. I skip the accelerator on the final coat. I find giving the CA time to flow on the last coat will smooth out the CA. If the CA is layered on too thick, or forced to set too quick, you will get ridges or orange peel type texture.
I apply CA at the slowest speed I can, otherwise the CA can get thrown off onto everything and everyone. Always wear safety glasses when applying CA.
I use medium CA here in the great lakes region, in dryer areas thin CA might work better for you. I usually lay down 4 or 5 coats, let the CA set overnight, MM up to 12000, then buff. The finish is like glass with an amazing depth.
Everyone has there own variations on the CA finish. Find out what works for you.
 
Low humidity in OKLAHOMA???????????????

You have your wires crossed. We sit here under humidity ranging in the 60% to 80% much of the year. The only time humidity goes to an enjoyable level is after the severe thunderstorms and the tornado's are past and the cool dry air from Colorado passes in.

Enough of that!

Thanks for the pearls of wisdom. They will help me immensely.

Question: Tell me about the actual application technique with the towels. Should I be in contact with the wood? Do I hold the towel on the wood long enough for the glue to start to cure or what????

Question: what is BLO and where do I find it. Tell me a little more about the BLO please.

Thanks in advance....Jim
 
I too had issues with consistent CA finishes. I used different methods, got decent results with all of them, but consistency was my problem. I bought a DVD (don't remember where) By Eric Anderson of Anderson Custom Pens. It is called "CA Finishing, A perfect finish every time." Well, It seems to hold up to it's claim. Make sure you follow the instructions exactly (as with every method!) and it seems to work! Why it works for me so well is that I can refer to the video and watch how it is done (Hmmm, I must be a visual learner!) It has worker well for me now for better than a dozen pens and consistency rules!:biggrin:
 
I think a few misconceptions keep people from getting a good CA finish
right away. But eventually people find their own way and it works.

For me, some important things I found out:
1. Cotton accelerates the CA cure. paper towels contain cotton.
2. BLO stops the CA from going through the paper towel and melting
through your latex glove.
3. Most people put too much CA on the paper towel. You want just enough
to put an almost dry coat on the blank. More than that will either stay in
the paper towel, get thrown off of the blank or cause ridges.
4. You should never put enough CA on the blank to create a ridge.
5. If you put on enough for a ridge, cut the amount back by 75%.
6. Micro-coats dry fast.
7. many micro-coats dry faster than one coat thick enough for a ridge.
8. Put the CA on the paper towel, not on the blank.

When I finally put all these together, I'd describe the process like this..

Moisten the paper towel with a little BLO. Your fingers will thank you.
Put a tiny amount of CA on the BLO. Wipe it across a fast-spinning blank.
Pretend you made a huge mistake and try like hell to wipe that CA off
of your blank as quickly as you can. It's ok to wipe hard.
That technique gives you one micro-coat.
Nineteen more to go.. :tongue:
 
I will never say how I do CA, cause I don't do it with any precision.

But I WILL SAY----BE CAREFUL with CA and BLO.

I have caused smoke with that combination, and, one time, my finger got stuck to that smoking towel---

OUCH!!:eek::eek::eek:
​

I learned a lot that night--never have repeated it---

:mad::mad:BEWARE!!:biggrin::biggrin:​
 
okiebugg said:
You have your wires crossed. We sit here under humidity ranging in the 60% to 80% much of the year. The only time humidity goes to an enjoyable level is after the severe thunderstorms and the tornado's are past and the cool dry air from Colorado passes in.
.....
Click to expand...
Your local humidity level is important information to consider. Another aspect of this is question is: where is your shop? Inside in an Air Conditioned space, in the basement, or out in a shed? All these factors change the humidity, which changes the speed CA sets.
I see many comments here and in other threads that mention trouble with consistency in the CA finish. This time of year and in the fall we see big changes in humidity levels and these humidity changes can mess up a CA finish that has worked well all winter.

You also asked about the application technique with the paper towels. I think NewLondon88 summed it up very well a few posts above here.
 
In jest

bradh said:
okiebugg said:
You have your wires crossed. We sit here under humidity ranging in the 60% to 80% much of the year. The only time humidity goes to an enjoyable level is after the severe thunderstorms and the tornado's are past and the cool dry air from Colorado passes in.
.....
Click to expand...
Your local humidity level is important information to consider. Another aspect of this is question is: where is your shop? Inside in an Air Conditioned space, in the basement, or out in a shed? All these factors change the humidity, which changes the speed CA sets.
I see many comments here and in other threads that mention trouble with consistency in the CA finish. This time of year and in the fall we see big changes in humidity levels and these humidity changes can mess up a CA finish that has worked well all winter.

You also asked about the application technique with the paper towels. I think NewLondon88 summed it up very well a few posts above here.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean the humidity remarks in a hurtful manner. Having spent 35 years in the USMC around very rough but very dedicated men and women, (The women were not as rough, but could kick your butt at the drop of a cover (hat). I over the years developed my own style of speaking very directly, even when trying to bring a bit of levity to most any situation. If my remarks were offensive, I apologize. Trying as I might, integration into a society where most anything goes, is a bit of a problem for me.

I have a shop that is heated and air conditioned, but in these days of nice weather, I turn with the doors and windows open, and don't use the A/C. Leaving the door open allows me to look toward the West to be ready to take cover if a storm is approaching.

I appreciate the remarks about CA and BLO. I tried it today, and it worked quite well.
 
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ed4copies said:
But I WILL SAY----BE CAREFUL with CA and BLO.

I have caused smoke with that combination, and, one time, my finger got stuck to that smoking towel---
I learned a lot that night--never have repeated it---
Click to expand...

Me either.
I mean .. not twice in a row. :tongue:
 
oily wood.

PenMan1 said:
Jim:
I'm glad "the method" worked for you! Now, for a head's up....On Cocobolo, BOW, Purpleheart and other "oily" woods, increase the "ca accelerator" to 4 coats and OMIT any finish oils such as Watco or BLO. Those named woods are so oily that the problem is GETTING RID OF THE MOISTURE.

Wtih the named woods above, any remaining moisture will cause a clouding effect under the finish. DAMHIKT:)
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I have learned to use Acetone to 'wash' these very oil filled woods such as Coco Bola. It dries the surface of the wood out. It also helps retain the finish on your pens.
 
Yep.. acetone wipe .. some use CA accelerator to do the same thing.
Some use DNA. But important.. don't wait! Wash it down just as you're
ready to finish. The oil comes back. :eek:
 
ed4copies said:
I will never say how I do CA, cause I don't do it with any precision.

But I WILL SAY----BE CAREFUL with CA and BLO.

I have caused smoke with that combination, and, one time, my finger got stuck to that smoking towel---

OUCH!!:eek::eek::eek:​


I learned a lot that night--never have repeated it---


:mad::mad:BEWARE!!:biggrin::biggrin:​
Click to expand...


Oh heck yeah. I have a blood blister on my thumb as I type this from doing just that the other night. Like Will Rogers said:

Some men learn by reading, some men learn by watching others, some men have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Click to expand...
 
Here's my writeup to a guy who asked me how to do CA finishes. Me? :redface: I just learned....

However, I can certainly tell you what mistakes I made... Here's what's been working fairly well for me.

Here are a couple of Don'ts, and Dos...
Don't use thin CA to glue tubes into blanks. It sets too fast and doesn't give you time to insert the tube. And yes, there's a story there.
Don't start sanding the CA glue with less than 600 grit.
Don't put too few layers of CA glue on before sanding.
Do use paper towels. If you use thin CA to start, then use a plastic backer behind the towels to keep from gluing the towels to your fingers.
Do use a fan to exhaust the CA fumes away from you. I use a personal fan to blow fresh air to me, and an exhaust fan in the shop gable (the forced air blower from my old heat pump system) to pull fumes away. Breathing CA glue gives me a headache and makes me wheeze. And there's no telling what other damage it's already done that I can't see..
Do use plumbers putty to plug the tubes before inserting them into the blanks. Saves time cleaning glue out of the tube, and the small tub of putty is really cheap.
Do use paste wax on the mandrel and bushings before placing the blanks on the mandrel to turn and finish. It saves time repairing the cracked CA from where your finish stuck to the bushings...
Here's the process.
I turn the blank just down to the bushings, then use a fine cutting skew to turn it just below that, and then starting with 180, 220, or even 320 depending on the tool marks left, sand down to (or is it up to?) 600 grit.
At that point I blow the dust off the blank, then use a paper towel with acetone to clean it, followed by a towel soaked with accelerator. Then using a clean, small piece of folded paper towel backed with plastic, I place a small drop of BLO (I've been using Watco oil finish since my BLO was solid and wouldn't come out of the can - and it seems to work just fine) on the paper towel. Then holding the towel just under a slowly spinning blank (500 RPM), I apply thin CA glue to the top of the blank, and wipe with the towel spread/smooth the glue out. Allow to dry. I do this five times with the thin CA, and then five times with the medium. I only use accelerator if a layer doesn't dry quickly- don't use too much, it will bubble up or frost. Practice will show you how to use the glue and towel to build smooth layers, so you don't have problems sanding. If you get a really bumpy layer, just use the skew or scraper to get it back down to a level layer again.
If the layers built fairly smoothly, and you haven't mucked up too badly, you should have enough CA built up to start sanding. A few ripples are easily sanded down to smooth. I don't start with anything less than 600 grit. My first mistake was to not put enough layers on, the second mistake was to start with 320 grit (or was it 400?) anyway, it was too coarse and sanded right through the finish. At this point I wet sand w/ 600 and 1000, then wet sand with the 9 piece micromesh set - which is 1500 up to 12,000. Some folks go on from there with a buffing compound, but I find this finish satisfactory - for now.
Click to expand...

Hopefully I'll have some pix before all the pens I've been making get gone... I think I'm getting the hang of the finish now. I'm still having a little trouble with cracking CA from sticking to the bushings. Much alleviated by the paste wax though...

And now for the story about not using thin CA to glue tubes into blanks.. Catch ya on another thread.
 
Well dang.

Last two pens I finished, I wound up with cloudy spots right on the ends of the tubes. (And I'm getting scratch marks I wasn't getting before.)

I sanded one of them back and re-applied, but it was even worse.

I can't figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong.
Is it the Johnson's Paste Wax I'm applying to the mandrel/shaft/bushings/nut/washer?

Is it the acetone and/or accelorator I'm applying to clean the blank before application of the CA glue?

Is it the cheap wet/dry 500/1000 grit sandpaper from HF that I start with? (I was using some plastic backed 3M 600/1000 grit discs before they disintegrated.)

Is it the wet sanding with above, then the micromesh set?
I haven't been as conscientious about keeping the water clean lately...

I need to finish only about 4 more pens, and this is discouraging me. I got it to work before...
 
underdog said:
Well dang.

Last two pens I finished, I wound up with cloudy spots right on the ends of the tubes. (And I'm getting scratch marks I wasn't getting before.)

===trim===

Is it the wet sanding with above, then the micromesh set?
I haven't been as conscientious about keeping the water clean lately...
Click to expand...

If you are wet sanding thru the CA, the water on the wood could be causing the clouding.
 
I hope I'm not stealing the thread, but while on the subject of Ca finish...... I have been wanting to ask this question for a while now, but have hesitated for various reasons.

How stable is the finish after a period of time? 1 year, 2 years, 6 months even? Is it OK to put on oily/waxy woods like Amboyna..and especially Thuya which is really waxy.

I am concerned about cracking, no matter how good the finish looks in the beginning, somewhere down the line.

I have used it a couple times and did achieve a good looking finish, but probably not nearly as deep as by the methods used by some here.
Russ
 
Don't worry about the way you speak/write. I have the same "problem". Being from Southern Ohio and a solid Midwesterner, I think folks from that region are more direct in their delivery. No direspect meant, thats "just the way some speak".

Just my 2 cents worth. Ok, maybe 1 cent.

Russ
 
bradh said:
If you are wet sanding thru the CA, the water on the wood could be causing the clouding.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'm sanding through the CA because it's definitely built up before I start sanding it, and I'm not sanding down to the wood.

However, it may be seeping into the end grain or under the CA glue from the ends... The more I think about it, that's probably what's happening.

But why didn't it happen previously? :question:
 
Russ,

I've have CA finishes on pens for years, and it is very stable. I've had some pens dropped countless times and the finish, although a little scuffed after all this time, is holding up great. Never had any crack.

As for oily wood, you would do well to wipe down the blank with acetone and let it completely dry before applying your CA finish. If it happens to be a particularly oily piece, than several "wipe and dry" applications will be necessary. I have never had a problem with Amboyna. Rosewood and olive wood are some of your oilier woods.

Russ Fairfield has some fantastic information on his website. I would definitely recommend doing some reading there! (http://www.woodturnerruss.com)
 
thanks, I'll give it a try. Thuya is the most oily I've had to deal with. I think after I'm finished with a nice sized chunk I have, that will be it for Thuya. Great looking dark wood but to brittle.

I am looking at Russ Farifield's site now. I had looked his site over in the past but have ignored the info on Ca. finish.

Thanks again
Russ
 
Can mineral spirits be used instead of water for wet sanding CA? I use it for wet sanding other finishes, and it doesn't have the problems that water does.
 
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