Rick P
Member
Just double checked and your right, they have come down dramatically since I last priced them........
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Good first rifle
- Thread starter Haynie
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Just double checked and your right, they have come down dramatically since I last priced them........
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Rick P
Member
Mind explaining this? Distance shooters often talk about being in the zone and not seeing anything other than the target, some claim they are so focused they dont even hear the gun go off! If your not aware of your suroundings as a hunter you need to stay the hell home!
Haynie
Member
Probably what it should read.
Don't overlook used.
If you are buying a good rifle, I wouldn't overlook used. People who have good target rifles generally give them pretty good care and some of them (like the Remington 700 I had) were used pretty lightly. I didn't do a lot of target shooting, I was woodchuck hunting and probably wasn't pushing more than a box or two of ammunition through it in a year. When I sold it the barrell was still like new. Probably had less than 200 rounds fired through it and I sold it for half what a new one would have cost.
If you are buying a good rifle, I wouldn't overlook used. People who have good target rifles generally give them pretty good care and some of them (like the Remington 700 I had) were used pretty lightly. I didn't do a lot of target shooting, I was woodchuck hunting and probably wasn't pushing more than a box or two of ammunition through it in a year. When I sold it the barrell was still like new. Probably had less than 200 rounds fired through it and I sold it for half what a new one would have cost.
turner.curtis
Member
No, I meant exactly what I said. In the realm of hunting you are generally in an area of a thicket or wood line where visibility is going to be more limited than say at Camp Perry or even your local range where there are no obstructions for the full 100, 200 or even 1000+ yards of the long line, plus at the range you are aware where everyone is. Being that most hunters do not completely scout the area and adjacent areas they are hunting, there is a higher probability that they will not know what is 600 - 1000 yards down range, possibly even on someone Else's property. That said this assertion CAN NOT be applied to everyone but is a general safe assumption when erring on the side of caution.
That said even a 22 with one helluva artillery style lob can traverse quite a distance on the occasion that the hunter is excited jerks one off and misses, do you think they will be able to quickly do the trig in their head to determine a rough approximation of the trajectory and know what is there? probably not... in the flood of excitement I would be willing to be they are going to rack the bolt and break off another round if the animal is still around never thinking about what their miss actually hit.
Having been a smallbore and highpower shooter for over 20 years there is a major difference in shooting long line versus hunting, some are as stated above. I can say that yes when in the "zone" or as Lanny Bassham would put it, having your well trained subconscious take over, I do not know when I have broken my shot, but I know where it is going and can usually even call that shot for which clock quadrant and what ring before I ever break my eyes over to my spotting scope. That said the major differences there, is on the range the shooter knows what is infront and surrounding them and they are watching a lot more than being zoned in on the target as you HAVE to dope the wind and mirage. Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush.
Once again there are caveats, but in general terms erring on the side of caution I will stand behind my statements any day.
That said even a 22 with one helluva artillery style lob can traverse quite a distance on the occasion that the hunter is excited jerks one off and misses, do you think they will be able to quickly do the trig in their head to determine a rough approximation of the trajectory and know what is there? probably not... in the flood of excitement I would be willing to be they are going to rack the bolt and break off another round if the animal is still around never thinking about what their miss actually hit.
Having been a smallbore and highpower shooter for over 20 years there is a major difference in shooting long line versus hunting, some are as stated above. I can say that yes when in the "zone" or as Lanny Bassham would put it, having your well trained subconscious take over, I do not know when I have broken my shot, but I know where it is going and can usually even call that shot for which clock quadrant and what ring before I ever break my eyes over to my spotting scope. That said the major differences there, is on the range the shooter knows what is infront and surrounding them and they are watching a lot more than being zoned in on the target as you HAVE to dope the wind and mirage. Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush.
Once again there are caveats, but in general terms erring on the side of caution I will stand behind my statements any day.
Rick P
Member
Curtis thats not being unaware of your surroundings thats having a safe shooting distance limited by the features of the area your hunting! The fact those limits are there dose not mean your unaware of them, other potential safety issues or shot placement and background.......a good hunter is ACUTLTY aware of these factors, if not he has no business taking a shot! And you can bet you arse I am every bit as familiar, comfortable and consistent with my platform as most target shooters, probably more so. If not I would have no business taking a shot! There is a lot more ridding on my shot placement than a hole in paper!
Repetition and practice? A hunter had better have done his range work till he can guarantee shot placement or he again has no business taking a shot. Your taking about unethical lazy sport killers not Hunters........"Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush........Who the heck do you hunt with? Someone in a group "snaps one off" without knowing where he put it up here he's done till he has dealt with his "buck fever". Seriously your saying hunters pay no attention to where they are shooting and don't practice. That's blatantly untrue, insulting and no one I know would do that!
PS I have over 35 years of experiance in the field and on ranges and this is the first time I can remeber a shooter looking down his nose at a fellow sportsman because he hapens to do more than punch holes with a rifle! This stuff is BASIC to all shooting sports man!
Repetition and practice? A hunter had better have done his range work till he can guarantee shot placement or he again has no business taking a shot. Your taking about unethical lazy sport killers not Hunters........"Most importantly that shooter that can "zone" in has spent hundreds of hours on the range repeating every exact motion like a robot to train their subconscious and develop muscle memory therefore there is a lot more decided and meticulously planned actions versus a snapped jerk during an adrenaline rush........Who the heck do you hunt with? Someone in a group "snaps one off" without knowing where he put it up here he's done till he has dealt with his "buck fever". Seriously your saying hunters pay no attention to where they are shooting and don't practice. That's blatantly untrue, insulting and no one I know would do that!
PS I have over 35 years of experiance in the field and on ranges and this is the first time I can remeber a shooter looking down his nose at a fellow sportsman because he hapens to do more than punch holes with a rifle! This stuff is BASIC to all shooting sports man!
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1000 yard shots
Until I decided I didn't want to shoot animals anymore 1n 1987 I had been hunting White Tail Deer for about 38 years. Since I hunted mostly in North Eastern Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier of NY State I never even saw an animal that was 1000 yards away while hunting....and I'm not at all sure I ever saw one that far away ever. I never hunted anywhere where you could even see a deer that far away. In NY we were required to use a shotgun with slugs and generally we were sighted in at 40 to 50 yards.
Our problem was not worrying about what/who might be wandering around a half a mile away, but worrying about who might be wandering around or standing 75 yards away that we didn't know about.
Until I decided I didn't want to shoot animals anymore 1n 1987 I had been hunting White Tail Deer for about 38 years. Since I hunted mostly in North Eastern Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier of NY State I never even saw an animal that was 1000 yards away while hunting....and I'm not at all sure I ever saw one that far away ever. I never hunted anywhere where you could even see a deer that far away. In NY we were required to use a shotgun with slugs and generally we were sighted in at 40 to 50 yards.
Our problem was not worrying about what/who might be wandering around a half a mile away, but worrying about who might be wandering around or standing 75 yards away that we didn't know about.
Displaced Canadian
Member
Where I was everybody knew the dope on their gun, a lot of time was spent on the range developing their loads, and we all knew what size group could be shot off a steady rest at 100 yards. Guys would say how many yard shots they would be comfortable shooting at a deer and most were saying 300 to 350 as a maximum distance. One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
Learning to control your nerves is one of the most difficult things to master when hunting. I saw a person shoot a tree stump twice, A friend of mine saw a moose, jacked every shell out of his rifle but never fired a shot. Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear.
Learning to control your nerves is one of the most difficult things to master when hunting. I saw a person shoot a tree stump twice, A friend of mine saw a moose, jacked every shell out of his rifle but never fired a shot. Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear.
Remind me not to use him as a guide, that is a sad way to get a guy to fill a bear tag. I'd rather go without.:biggrin:
Rick P
Member
Agreed Hunter-27 not an ethical nor a legal way here in Alaska to fill a tag. And he'd be turned in so fast it would give him whiplash if I was his client!
"Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear."
"Another friend of mine is a bear guide and shoots the same time the client does and about 80% of the time it is his shot that kills the bear."
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Rick P
Member
One day a barrel with a 3" orange sticker showed up at the range at 200 yards. A lot of people shot at it and nobody landed a "kill shot" around the circle. To say the least it was an eye opener. The guns were capable but most of the shooters were not. Too much time on the bench and not enough on practical shooting.
Exactly why most, including myself, practice practicle shooting......what you discribe is in no way shape or form the norm in my experiance. Also in real terms a shot greater than 100 yards is rare and unnessisary in the field.
Exactly why most, including myself, practice practicle shooting......what you discribe is in no way shape or form the norm in my experiance. Also in real terms a shot greater than 100 yards is rare and unnessisary in the field.
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Displaced Canadian
Member
Usually there is 2 holes in the bear, one through the front shoulder which will bring the bear down and is the guides shot the second is usually in some random spot and rarely a kill shot from the client. The thinking is better a dead brown bear with 2 holes than a wounded bear with one. Most of these clients buy a rifle for the trip and have barely shot enough to sight it in. Most of these clients aren't hunters, They are rich people who just want to do it so they can say they shot a grizzly bear. A 5 day hunt with these guys is $10,000.
Rick P
Member
Respectfully Displaced Canadian clients like that are not hunters! They are wanabes, sport killers and a big part of what is wrong with hunting today! To many are willing to ignore that kind of foolishness in the name of money over hunting ethics. To many are willing to keep there mouth shut when basic hunting ethics are ignored for the "sake of a new hunter in the sport". Thank god they do not represent the majority, only a spoiled and lazy minority. Fear of anti's has made us our own worst enemy........
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Woodlvr
Member
I received that Marlin 60 in 1980 for Christmas. I only wish that I could find a larger clip for it.
Displaced Canadian
Member
Rick,
I completely agree with you. A most if not all of those guys just want a head mounted on the wall and a rug on the floor and if they were locals wouldn't even be allowed out in the woods. The town I was in is very big on responsible hunting and that was the reason the barrel showed up at the range. There was a growing group of people in there late teens and early 20's who were concentrating on their guns and not their ability to shoot. It showed these kids that they needed to shorten up their personal maximum range or practice "real" shooting.
I completely agree with you. A most if not all of those guys just want a head mounted on the wall and a rug on the floor and if they were locals wouldn't even be allowed out in the woods. The town I was in is very big on responsible hunting and that was the reason the barrel showed up at the range. There was a growing group of people in there late teens and early 20's who were concentrating on their guns and not their ability to shoot. It showed these kids that they needed to shorten up their personal maximum range or practice "real" shooting.
Rick P
Member
Gottcha bud! Wish there was a double like button Displaced Canadian.......I get kinda protective as hunting isnt sport for me, it's how I feed my family, how I was raised and my families way of life.
Sad that media pays far more attention to horn porn than teaching hunting skills and ethics.........guess thats were us grummpy old farts come in?
Sad that media pays far more attention to horn porn than teaching hunting skills and ethics.........guess thats were us grummpy old farts come in?
Rick P
Member
dogcatcher
Member
Stay with the common calibers, the ammo is easier to find. I know in the Southwest the common calibers were easier to find even when there is an ammo shortage. If you buy some of the hot magnum calibers you can also limit your bullet selections, because retailers don't stock all of the "off the wall" calibers in all bullet configurations. 243, 30-30, 308 and 270 would be my choices. 30-30 the last choice, it's range is not that of the others.
I'm with you on that
I wouldn't tolerate that and unless he is hunting on a preserve it's probably not legal, no where that I ever hunted allowed a hunter to tag an animal killed by someone else.
titan2
Member
That's a price I found for ex-military rounds I ran across on-line a while back. It'd be fun to shoot if you can find a range long enough (and close enough) for the long shots......would definately put a dent in the old wallet!!!
Barney
Where I grew up and hunted most of our shooting was at make shift ranges, with our hunting rifles (or shotguns) for the purpose of sighting them in. The exception being one of the local farmers used to host a turkey shoot (we didn't shoot the turkey like sergeant York). One of my great sources of pride is the day using my Model 88 Winchester with a 1 1/2 to 4 power hunting scope in a 100 yard bench shoot, I beat a guy using a bull barrelled .257 Roberts with a 10 power scope.
We all were pretty good shots because we used .22's a lot for plinking, punching a little paper and shooting rats at a local dump.
TellicoTurning
Member
Never was much of a shooter myself... I had a little 1911 or 1921(not sure of the year.. just trying to remember what my dad said it was) Stevens single shot .22 that my dad bought off a friend in west Texas... we used it to squirrel hunt some and I used to take it out to a friends house to plink around with... my friend had a little pump .22, but I think my single shot was more accurate... at least I generally could outshoot him.
A cousin and I took it down to the city reservoir in Coolidge, Texas once and shot snakes with it... we sat up the hill above the reservoir and plinked down into the water and at the ones laying on the rocks... they were all cottonmouths and we didn't get too close.
My son has the rifle now... he's more into shooting than I am.
A cousin and I took it down to the city reservoir in Coolidge, Texas once and shot snakes with it... we sat up the hill above the reservoir and plinked down into the water and at the ones laying on the rocks... they were all cottonmouths and we didn't get too close.
My son has the rifle now... he's more into shooting than I am.
Rick P
Member
"We all were pretty good shots because we used .22's a lot for plinking, punching a little paper and shooting rats at a local dump."
Add to that the practical shooting you and I did/do on make shift ranges and it's no wonder you were good shots. Part of the reason I stay sharp all year is that there is only 3 months when I cant put meat in the pot of some kind, so I almost always have a bow pistol or a rifle on me. I have been asked "how many days a year do you hunt?" Well thats hard to say because I never miss an opportunity to put food in the family Lauder, whether we are gathering fire wood or on a "hunt".........in fact I'd say I spend more time shooting than most "avid" target shooters in any given year. I have yet to see the range busy at -40 and I am still harvesting small game and the cold is the best time for predator hunting since the fur is prime.
Add to that the practical shooting you and I did/do on make shift ranges and it's no wonder you were good shots. Part of the reason I stay sharp all year is that there is only 3 months when I cant put meat in the pot of some kind, so I almost always have a bow pistol or a rifle on me. I have been asked "how many days a year do you hunt?" Well thats hard to say because I never miss an opportunity to put food in the family Lauder, whether we are gathering fire wood or on a "hunt".........in fact I'd say I spend more time shooting than most "avid" target shooters in any given year. I have yet to see the range busy at -40 and I am still harvesting small game and the cold is the best time for predator hunting since the fur is prime.
fred holsclaw
Member
577/450 is not a bad round
500 grain bullet pushed by 80 grains single f black powder paper patched to 483 bore di.
shooting a old martini/henery 1884 rifle
500 grain bullet pushed by 80 grains single f black powder paper patched to 483 bore di.
shooting a old martini/henery 1884 rifle
I'll take your word for that....
I never got into black powder very much. I put together and finished a Connecticut Valley Arms Hawken Rifle to hang over my fire place that we took out and shot once. At 40 yards with the recommended load it tossed a round ball pretty accurately. I never hunted with it but my son-in-law has it now and has taken white tail deer with it.
I never got into black powder very much. I put together and finished a Connecticut Valley Arms Hawken Rifle to hang over my fire place that we took out and shot once. At 40 yards with the recommended load it tossed a round ball pretty accurately. I never hunted with it but my son-in-law has it now and has taken white tail deer with it.
Displaced Canadian
Member
Personal opinion Setting up a bunch of targets at a variety of sizes, distances, and heights and plinking away with a .22 is about the best practice and fun that you can have. In early spring we would go out to the creek and stand up chunks of river ice and use them as targets. They explode when hit, no mess to clean up, and as the day wears on the targets get smaller.
First gun I shot was a Red Ryder BB gun, the second a Mossberg 16 ga. shotgun (missed the intended animal but the barn ended up with a hole in it.) still can't hit anything with a shotgun. Then I shot a .22. I would not recommend this progression for anybody.
I never told my Dad about shooting the barn, he never asked. I'm sure he knew, there was a hole the size of a silver dollar 18" off the ground and only a foot to the left of the main door.
First gun I shot was a Red Ryder BB gun, the second a Mossberg 16 ga. shotgun (missed the intended animal but the barn ended up with a hole in it.) still can't hit anything with a shotgun. Then I shot a .22. I would not recommend this progression for anybody.
I never told my Dad about shooting the barn, he never asked. I'm sure he knew, there was a hole the size of a silver dollar 18" off the ground and only a foot to the left of the main door.
turner.curtis
Member
Rick P, maybe you do not remember the course of events that happened back in 2006... It does not matter how many years 'you' have behind the trigger, or what 'you' do for practice. When you come hunting with me, which I very rarely do anymore, I am going to be extremely paranoid and more concerned with 'you' as I do not know you or your abilities Mental and physical. Simply it boils back down to "That said this assertion CAN NOT be applied to everyone but is a general safe assumption when erring on the side of caution." I always err on the side of caution, and there for hopefully prevent an issue like Dick Cheney did back in 2006. Whom, if I remember right, was supposedly an avid sportsman/hunter/shooter.
Just like with cars these days, we just do not get the end product that we did in the 60s, or at least as beefy of a product with the absence of any plastics, and made from real USA steel... I feel the same for hunters education these days...
Just like with cars these days, we just do not get the end product that we did in the 60s, or at least as beefy of a product with the absence of any plastics, and made from real USA steel... I feel the same for hunters education these days...
Haynie
Member
Leaning towards the TC Encore. Seems to be a well built gun, and I like the versatility. But, it is a single shot. I have read that a single shot is more accurate but I am not sure I buy it. Once again I only have my pistols to compare. Any thoughts?
Rick P
Member
So your more than happy to condemn the biggest group in the shooting community for the actions of a tiny percentage of hunters? Once again get yer damn nose out of the air! The FACT we have a better safety record than bicyclists speaks for it's self! And exactly what does some rich fat ******* have to do with me, how I hunt or my attention to shooting safety or the environment in which I hunt? Or for that matter the average hunter? Your attitude is so far off it comes very close to bigotry!
I dont hunt with anyone till I know they understand BASIC safety rules.......Obviously Dick Chaney does not.
I dont hunt with anyone till I know they understand BASIC safety rules.......Obviously Dick Chaney does not.
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Rick P
Member
Haynie:
Sorry I keep having to deal with ignorance, this thread should be about helping you pick your first rifle, not defending the hunting community from a self absorbed target shooter!
The more moving parts a system has the less likely everything is going to line up exactly the same every time. Consistency is in very important to accuracy. A breach action has very few moving parts......it also forces you to slow down and think before a follow up shot. Focus is another of the pillars of accuracy. Frankly you probably wont notice too much down range difference between a breach action and a bolt action, the breach is simply my preference, but like pen turning there is more than one way to reach your goals.
Sorry I keep having to deal with ignorance, this thread should be about helping you pick your first rifle, not defending the hunting community from a self absorbed target shooter!
The more moving parts a system has the less likely everything is going to line up exactly the same every time. Consistency is in very important to accuracy. A breach action has very few moving parts......it also forces you to slow down and think before a follow up shot. Focus is another of the pillars of accuracy. Frankly you probably wont notice too much down range difference between a breach action and a bolt action, the breach is simply my preference, but like pen turning there is more than one way to reach your goals.
Probably won't notice
I strongly suspect you won't notice 10 cents worth of difference between the accuracy of the breach loading rifle and a good bolt action rifle. And, unless you are planning on competition shooting you probably won't care since either should be plenty accurate for recreational shooting or hunting. I had a model 1898 Springfield 30-40 Krag carbine used in the Spanish-American war that shot a pretty decent group at 100 yards and could lay the first round just about where I wanted it to be when hunting.
Displaced Canadian
Member
Rick pretty much explained the single shot thing. As long as you are just punching paper the number of shots in the gun really doesn't matter. If you are a bench rest shooter a bolt is nicer because you don't have to pick up the rifle to reload. Exactly what kind of shooting are you thinking of doing? Up north I had a TC contender with a 10" barrel and off a rest you could drive nails with it. I'm thinking one of these days trading in my 300 for a TC Encore something with a 14" barrel for long distance pistol shooting.
Haynie
Member
Thanks.
Florida Marine
Member
Got my son a Rossi two barrel, .22 and 410.
Loves it!
Loves it!
Rick P
Member
My wife had the Rossi in .22, 20ga and .243. Great little gun.