Glue issue

[Woodchipper]

On top of everything else, got this! I had three disasters today- three kits required turning blanks down to paper thin. When I got down so far, the one acrylic and two wood blanks chipped off, showing no epoxy. Never had this happen on other kits- Slimline, bolt action, lever action, cartridge, revolver. Using thin Titebond CA for tubes. I viewed and follow Ed Brown's video, FWIW. Insert one end in the blank, reverse and insert. crokett uses acid brushes; I get cheap paint brushes from Oriental Trading- a couple of bucks for 100 brushes. Your help is appreciated. Kits are Woodcraft: Wall Street II Two Tone, Princeton, Script Click. Hope this gives an idea of what I'm facing.

 

[jttheclockman]

Epoxy glue is the answer and just can not understand why people continue to use CA as an adhesive for blank and tube. If you are going to use CA then at least use med or even thick.

 

[FGarbrecht]

I don't like CA for tubes, always use epoxy (some like Gorilla glue since it expands). I coat as much of the tube surface as possible, push it in while swirling to distribute the glue. I push it out the other side (using a toothpick) about 1/3 of the way and apply epoxy to the part that is sticking out the other end. Then push the tube back in and you know the epoxy is distributed over the entire tube / hole. If you observe carefully as you push the 1/3 tube out the other end you will see that there is often NO EPOXY visible, so if you don't apply additional glue at this step then the tube will not be completely secured in the hole. This is particularly true if there is much slop in hole diameter; epoxy doesn't expand but it will fill small gaps effectively, so you need to be generous with it and make sure the gaps are filled.

 

[magpens]

I hear you ... I feel your pain ... I wish I could help !!

However, there are some pen kits which are just not well designed with respect to the finished size at the ends of the blank compared to the brass tube size and the pen parts to which you must match the finished size of the blank at the end.

I have had similar troubles to you, primarily with slimlines and with the Executive kit. . Also the Sierra kit can be tricky but not too bad.
I just don't know why " they " designed the Sierra for a 27/64" drill size when a somewhat smaller drill size (and brass tube) would have done equally well and would have resulted in the end thickness of the blank being greater (and more reasonable to work with). . The 27/64" sizing was just not a rational choice, in my opinion, unless it was to cut down on weight ( which does not make much sense to me ).

I don't know of any absolutely certain method of spreading glue on the brass tube so that you get uniform coverage AFTER you have inserted the tube into the blank. . Yes, I have tried the various suggestions but there is no guarantee, and my own personal handling of the parts could very well leave room for problems to occur. . I do use a method very similar to Frederick's (above), and I do what he suggests at BOTH ends.

You mentioned the bolt action ... which one ? . I have never had a problem with the 30 Caliber Bolt Action from PSI. . It has always gone together well for me; it seems to have sufficient " meat " on the ends of the finished blank.

I always use 5 minute epoxy for gluing my tubes into the blanks ... all types of blanks: wood or non-wood. . For me, CA has several disadvantages.

 

[Woodchipper]

Correction- I use thick for rubes. Remembered a two part epoxy past that I used for custom fishing rod grips- Rod Bond. Mix and apply; fully cures in 24 hours. Obviously no need to rush the job.
Mal, the ones I listed haven't produced any problems. It's the three others that I had problems with this morning; Kits are Woodcraft: Wall Street II Two Tone, Princeton, Script Click.

 

[howsitwork]

Got to recommend you use epoxy preferably slow setting certainly with wood to give penetration time and time to manoeuvre things. I bing the bottom of the tube with blu tac and then using a coffee stirrer apply epoxy into the blank from both ends and rub it around. Then apply to the pre sanded tubes externally and using a tapered insertion tool that I turned up from HDPE i push the tube home into the blank sealed end first rotating it as I go. for the last 1/4 " I apply a bit more epoxy to the tube and push it straight in. There is always excess epoxy but I wipe it away with the coffee stirrer ( available from mcdonald's, cafe nero , KFC etc ) . Leave to set in a warm area for 24 hours then push a drill or I use a dental probe , into the sealed end to remove the blu tac and glue.

I have had some air bubbles visible in clear blanks which irritates me but they actually look "quite cool", I am told by those who have them. Chipping out can be a problem with certain woods hence I like to use slow setting epoxy in the hope it penetrates a bit near the tube stabilizing it. I have no evidence for this though.

 

[Woodchipper]

howsitwork, that is basically what I do with CA. I have two syringes of Two Ton epoxy. Should be good as I used it for golf clubs. Got hundreds of coffee stirrers from a school that closed. What is blu tac????

 

[Woodchipper]

Don't care for the 5 minute epoxy. Had that with my first rod build- almost didn't get the grip on! Went with Two Ton after that, has 30 minute set time.

 

[Grampy]

My perspective (5 minute Epoxy)

I have used 5 minute epoxy in the past, If you are way too slow it is unforgiving, and it cures so fast you can really smell it => not good for closed shop / winter use up North.. (where I live)

Recently (as an experiment) I picked up the HFT brand of 5 minute epoxy (about 1/2 the price of the name brands, and I had a coupon for more $$ off).. anyway I've given it a try.. seems to take longer than the 5 minutes to set up, and the smell is not noticeable (so is it really 5 minute stuff??)

Anyway, after the messy work, I always bring the "curing blanks" into the heated house to cure overnite, and have had good luck (so far)..

For me the convenience of HFT works, it is closer than any other place I can get 2 part epoxy, and for me it has worked so far.

I'll add as with any epoxy, make sure you are wearing gloves..

 

[wolf creek knives]

I use the System 3 epoxy and I've never had any trouble, and the epoxy lasts forever in the bottles even if frozen. I drill the tube holes, mix up a small batch of the epoxy and then coat the inside of the blank using a stir stick like you get for your coffee (the plastic ones). Then I apply a good amount of the epoxy to the tube and work it in on both ends then push the tube the rest of the way into the blank.
The formula I use for the epoxy is 5ml part A to 2.5ml part B. Cost is $0.11 per batch and I just did part of an order the other day and it easily covered 18 seam ripper tubes for gluing. I've got 2 more seam rippers, 15 ice cream scoops and 10 comfort pens left for this order and I'm pretty confident the next batch will almost do all the rest without any problems.
Hope this helps a little.

 

[Gary H]

My two cents worth from down under. I have tried CA (disaster), two part 24hr epoxy (great) and Gorilla (really great BUT...). The "but" with Gorilla glue is that it expands as it dries and is very prone to pushing the tube out of the blank (definitely not good!). To prevent that, I use masking tape over each end of the blank and it holds the tube in place. I agree with previous posts that covering the tube liberally, twisting as it's inserted, and then inserting again from the other end gets the best results for me. Also, I plug one end of the tube with a piece of carrot, and then eat the leftovers!

Cheers, Gary H

 

[ed4copies]

I suspect your hole is too large

When a blank peels off from the end, I have discovered that it is usually not centered in the hole and the hole is larger than necessary.

We have threads from time to time about the drill bit "wandering" and expanding the end of the hole. When this happens, you have insufficient amount of material on one side of the blank. That is the side that will catch your tool and "peel off". I have tried using sandpaper when I see this happening (when I was testing the hypothesis) and even then, the sandpaper removed enough material to expose the tube. Next time you are gluing up your tubes, LOOK AT the hole size on both ends--if one is larger than the other, you have identified your real problem.

 

[Woodchipper]

Ed, many thanks for your advice. What is the cure? I have the usual "off-the-shelf" bits for pen turning.

 

[ed4copies]

The "solution" is still a mystery.

One thing that works is to drill a smaller than necessary hole and expand it with the bit you need (difference of a few thousandths).
This is based on the theory that the final hole will be straight and uniform, since very little material was removed. This has worked for me,
but it is a work-around, not a solution

 

[wolf creek knives]

Ed, many thanks for your advice. What is the cure? I have the usual "off-the-shelf" bits for pen turning.

I buy bits that I get from a specialty store. If you're interested I can get you the name on the bit but they are manufactured here in the U.S. and I haven't had any trouble with them. I think the company is out of NJ or NY. They're a bit more price wise than the off the shelf types but they are HSS all the way through, not just the tip. They hold an edge and I don't get any drift at all. I've never had the problem with any turnings I've done, like you've mentioned, using these bits.

 

[philipff]

I buy bits that I get from a specialty store. If you're interested I can get you the name on the bit but they are manufactured here in the U.S. and I haven't had any trouble with them. I think the company is out of NJ or NY. They're a bit more price wise than the off the shelf types but they are HSS all the way through, not just the tip. They hold an edge and I don't get any drift at all. I've never had the problem with any turnings I've done, like you've mentioned, using these bits.

Tell us all about the company and its order page!! P.

 

[Woodchipper]

Just back from the shop. I drilled pink acrylic with 7 mm bit. Dropped, yes, dropped the tube into the blank and there is noticeable space between the tube and wall of the blank. OTOH, I drilled a piece of hard maple with the same bit and the tube fits like a glove. Glued the maple with thick CA as usual. Holding off on the pink acrylic for now. My lathe has a short quill run-out and I have to withdraw to crank in the quill. Either I stop the headstock with the bit in the blank or reinsert the bit.

 

[wolf creek knives]

Tell us all about the company and its order page!! P.

The company name is ICS Cutting Tools (www.icscuttingtools.com) The bits I buy are on page 41 (metric) and page 33 (fractional sizes #JDHGF ) of their catalog. The description says that welders use them for different metals but I've found they work great on wood and acrylic. And if you have a Drill Doctor you can sharpen them yourself.

 

[Woodchipper]

WCK, thanks. Just wondering why the acrylic is oversize and the wood fits perfectly. One of the many mysteries of the universe.

 

[PBorowick]

WCK, thank you for the link. I will be looking at those the next time I need bits. I am currently using the Woodcraft brand and Fisch. I like the Fisch a lot. The make a very clean/straight hole but they are spendy!

 

[jttheclockman]

WCK, thanks. Just wondering why the acrylic is oversize and the wood fits perfectly. One of the many mysteries of the universe.

Expansion my friend.

 

[Woodchipper]

Expansion my friend.

Odd, but my wife said the same thing. How do I get the acrylic to shrink down? Dill pickle juice?

 

[howsitwork]

To reply to an earlier question Blu Tac is a form of sticky removable gunk you use to hold posters etc on the wall without marking the wall ( if you don't leave it up too long ) .

Re the wood and the plastic drilling I suspect it's the nature of the material. The drill cuts the hard wood fibres and the cuttings are removed by the flutes. In plastic it's more of a shearing action and it can effectively drag a bit of the surrounding plastic ( which compared to the wood is slightly flexible) along with it before it shears it off so the drill cuts slightly oversize. Sharp drills of decent quality are partly the answer but also as Ed says serial drilling "in progression" from a slightly smaller to the exact size you want helps get an exact size. Try different drill types to find which works best. I use a bullet point type in plastic and often in harder woods. On others lip and spur type work well but clear the shavings frequently of they can swell and push the drill slightly off course causing it to ream the hole wider along its length as they push up the flutes.

As a matter of interest drills can cut under size in resinous woods eg Lignum vitae . I had to drill this 0.1mm larger than my usual 8mm drill as even though I remaed it with the drill and epwnet back and forth a few times the tube still wouldn't go in. Despite cleaning with alcohol soaked q tips and blowing dry to clear any resin etc. In the end I went 0.1 mm wider and it slid home ( just ). I needed to clean with alcohol to ensure the epoxy could grip the wood! Only t8me I've ever had this happen but all 4 pens needed this treatment so it wasn't a fluke.

 

[crokett]

I use 5 minute epoxy. I quit using CA glue a long time ago. 5 minute gives me plenty of time to glue up tubes, and I will glue 4 or 5 pens at the same time. your open time is longer than 5 minute, at least for the stuff I use. My method is to line up the blanks with the tubes. mix the epoxy with an acid brush. spread glue around the tube to about 75% of the length. insert the tube in the blank to the glue line. take a clean brush and spread the squeezeout along the rest of the tube. push the tube in the rest of the way. I don't color the epoxy. if a tube needs to be colored I paint it first.

 

[jttheclockman]

Odd, but my wife said the same thing. How do I get the acrylic to shrink down? Dill pickle juice?

Drill slower. You drill acrylic slower than wood. All materials react differently when heated.

 

[crokett]

Drill slower. You drill acrylic slower than wood. All materials react differently when heated.

Also you need to back the bit out and clear the swarf more often than you do with wood. Acrylic doesn't clear the flutes as easily as wood.

 

[Woodchipper]

Thanks. I would think heat would build up faster when drilling slower. Got some acrylic on the shelf. Will experiment as i can use it for another pen in the planning stages.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thanks. I would think heat would build up faster when drilling slower. Got some acrylic on the shelf. Will experiment as i can use it for another pen in the planning stages.

No heat is built up with speed. Not all wood drills equal either. Resinous wood will drill harder and have smaller opening.

 

[Woodchipper]

Again, thanks from another John T. I thought of buying the holes and gluing them in.

 

[randyrls]

WCK, thanks. Just wondering why the acrylic is oversize and the wood fits perfectly. One of the many mysteries of the universe.

John; The same size bit in wood will drill a slightly smaller hole than in acrylic. The difference is small (about .004" (.1mm)) but it is noticeable if like me you drill to tight tolerances.

 

[Woodchipper]

Randy, there is a noticeable difference between a wood blank and the acrylic blank. When I insert the tube in the blank, it doesn' even slow down until it hits the workbench!

 

[jttheclockman]

John; The same size bit in wood will drill a slightly smaller hole than in acrylic. The difference is small (about .004" (.1mm)) but it is noticeable if like me you drill to tight tolerances.

Again this is because acrylic will expand when heated and when cooled it shrinks thus the larger hole. Wood does not react that way. Slow the drilling process down and if you are using a sharp bit see the difference. This will happen in metal also. Thus the coolant. Now if there is runout in your tool you are drilling with all bets are off.

 

[wolf creek knives]

WCK, thanks. Just wondering why the acrylic is oversize and the wood fits perfectly. One of the many mysteries of the universe.

I was going to say heat but it looks like it's been answered. I use the bits I mentioned above on a very few pieces of acrylic and using the techniques mentioned above I've been able to do okay.

 

[Woodchipper]

As an aside, the wrench pen in the avatar is one my grandson built for his father, an ME. Like drilling through tool steel!
Back to business- I see that there are 6.5 mm bits available. Would that be better for acrylic, considering the material and resulting heat?

Let me pause and say that the forum members here are among the best I have seen on any forum!!!!

 

[jttheclockman]

As an aside, the wrench pen in the avatar is one my grandson built for his father, an ME. Like drilling through tool steel!
Back to business- I see that there are 6.5 mm bits available. Would that be better for acrylic, considering the material and resulting heat?

Let me pause and say that the forum members here are among the best I have seen on any forum!!!!

We can not answer that for you. We have no idea how much slack you are talking about. We do not know the kits you are using. many kits you can get by with some slack in the hole and at times it is a good thing especially if you are reverse painting the blank because of transparency. But again this is where epoxy glue will shine. It takes up for the extra space if the kit will allow it. if you have to work on real tight tolerances than having between bits or letter bits will be a better choice. At least i can not answer. Will let those that made hundred of thousand of pens answer. I have not even or will ever make 1000 pens in my lifetime. Sorry.

 

[Woodchipper]

This problem was for a Woodcraft Slimline- pink acrylic. There is noticeable gap between the tube and the hole. As was pointed out, when the tube is glued off center, you get a thin spot when turning. Then the trouble begins and it's downhill from there.

 

[jttheclockman]

This problem was for a Woodcraft Slimline- pink acrylic. There is noticeable gap between the tube and the hole. As was pointed out, when the tube is glued off center, you get a thin spot when turning. Then the trouble begins and it's downhill from there.

Yep that is a problem. Good luck.

 

[penicillin]

For nearly all of my pens, I use Original Gorilla Glue, which is a polyurethane glue that foams. I have never had a tube push out from the foaming action.

To apply polyurethane glue, fill an old pill container with water to keep it handy. Use Q-tips to wet the inside of the holes in the blanks before inserting the pen tubes with the polyurethane glue on them. Put on a disposable glove and hold the tube with your gloved hand. "Spiral" the thick glue around the tube from the tip to near the end. Twist, pull, and push the tube until both the tube and blank are well-coated, then push the remainder of the tube in. Press in with your gloved thumb and sweep it sideways across the hole to wipe off the excess glue. Set the pen blanks down on their sides on a Rockler silicone mat or waxed paper. The glue will turn yellow, foam out, and harden. When the glue is cured, use a chisel to slice/scrape the foamed glue off the top of the blank. Use a pen mill insert by hand to twist/knock/cut out the glue plug from inside the tube. On VERY rare occasions, a rattail file is needed to scrape out excess glue from the tube. (I tried 99 Cent Store generic play-doh to plug the tubes, but it was messier. I bought dental wax for plugs, but have not tried it yet.)

I like how polyurethane glue expands to fill the gaps. I have seen tubes that are not perfectly centered in their holes, but very close, good enough that the pens turn out fine. Polyurethane glue takes 24 hours to cure. I have had pen failures associated with CA glue, but never with polyurethane.

I have used White Gorilla Glue, which is a polyurethane glue that dries white instead of yellow. It works equally well for pen tubes, but goes on more "runny" than original Gorilla Glue. It tends to flow and drip off the tube as you insert it, making more of a mess. Otherwise, it works as well as Original Gorilla Glue. It seems to harden and cure faster, but they still say 24 hours for a full cure.

I use cheap 5 minute epoxy from the double syringe for translucent plastics/acrylics. It works well, but is messy and expensive.

I use medium CA when I want to turn a pen immediately - usually for a demonstration or to make a pen "now." Spraying activator on each end of the blank seems to reduce chances of glue failure based on a friend's recommendation and personal experience, although I can't explain why.

I use Clear Gorilla Glue (silane, not polyurethane) on rare occasions for special needs.

 

[Woodchipper]

Penny Sillin, thanks. Seems like you go ape over Gorilla glue. OK, enough of the bad jokes. It's worth a try. Got it on my list for Lowe's- got a gift card for Christmas. Doesn't hurt to have more than one way to do a job for pen turning and assembly.
FWIW, a custodian at my wife's school used Gorilla tape for repairs (instead of duck tape). She said once it was stuck, it was there for along time!

 

[penicillin]

Buy the smallest bottle of Original Gorilla Glue. You can find it everywhere - Walmart, Home Depot, etc.

One of the tiny bottles was good for about 50+ pens, and it lasted about a year before the flow texture was wrong and I replaced it. Polyurethane glue is messy and takes a day to cure, but it works for me and I like it.

Write the date of purchase and the date of opening on all your glue bottles. It is a pain, but it takes only a second, and you will be glad later.