PaulDoug
Member
I keep reading that more and more schools are going to stop teaching penmanship. Hummm, I wonder what the will do for pens in the distant future. Our Grand children may not be too interested in them.
Future of Pens
- Thread starter PaulDoug
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penhead
Local Chapter Leader
Sure...and when the power goes out, and nobody knows how to stroke the alphabet without a keyboard...those who have pens stockpiled will rule.. 
...and, and...I can see monks sitting in dark rooms transcribing huge volumes of books...
..or maybe to much imagination..or coffee..??
...and, and...I can see monks sitting in dark rooms transcribing huge volumes of books...
..or maybe to much imagination..or coffee..??
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
That will depend on those of you who are 20-35. IF you allow the schools to stop teaching your children, you will get what you ask for---a generation of illiterates.
As a parent you have a responsibility to your child---we have allowed government and schools to fulfill much of that responsibility, which does NOT relieve you of directing that fulfillment.
The past was in our hands (baby-boomers), now the future is in YOURS. good luck.
As a parent you have a responsibility to your child---we have allowed government and schools to fulfill much of that responsibility, which does NOT relieve you of directing that fulfillment.
The past was in our hands (baby-boomers), now the future is in YOURS. good luck.
sbell111
Member
Why would any school teach penmanship? Back in the early seventies, when I was in elementary school, we did not learn 'penmanship'. We learned how to form letters, of course, but I have a hard time believing that anyone has proposed that children ought not be taught how to make a 'G'.
PaulDoug
Member
Well, let's see, not that many monks and they use reeds or something, and how many collectors well there be. Probably more makers than collectors....:wink:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Steve you make an excellent point. Hopefully this is a discussion of semantics---
ctubbs
Member
Cursive writing is just the tip of the ice burg. How long has it been since the clerk at checkout correctly counted back your change? Oh, I forgot, we only use plastic. When the lights go out and the UPS runs down now, all commerce must stop. No one can count money, add, subtract, multiply or divide in their mind or even on paper any more. Oh, I forgot again, no pens! Many of our younger generation can only wright or speak in txt msg lngage. Sorry about this rant. No I am not! I am sorry about lying about being sorry, though.
Charles
Charles
sbell111
Member
A quick googling identified that the issue is that some districts are no longer teaching cursive writing. Children are still being taught how to form letters and how to spell. Children are still being required to do homework and write papers.
While I haven't given the idea much thought, I don't really have a problem with it. If it leaves more time to fill their brains with more valuable information that will help them (and the country in general) be competitive, I'm all for it. After all, all kids used to learn shorthand, right?
Glancing around my office, I am struck with how much I write. I have boxes of filled notebooks that must be retained as the info is related to some lawsuit or another. Flipping through a few of these, I am only slightly surprised to find almost no cursive writing. My scribble is almost always printed. In fact, it's almost completely in 'small caps'. Meaning all letters are capitals. True capital letters being larger than the rest. I cannot say that learning cursive writing has aided me in life. I'd have just as soon that they hadn't wasted time on that and taught me something else, instead.
It is worth remembering that the amount that our kids learn in school is limited not by the amount of useful material that could be taught, but by the amount of time available to teach it. If there is something more valuable to be taught than cursive writing, I think that they should teach that other thing.
While I haven't given the idea much thought, I don't really have a problem with it. If it leaves more time to fill their brains with more valuable information that will help them (and the country in general) be competitive, I'm all for it. After all, all kids used to learn shorthand, right?
Glancing around my office, I am struck with how much I write. I have boxes of filled notebooks that must be retained as the info is related to some lawsuit or another. Flipping through a few of these, I am only slightly surprised to find almost no cursive writing. My scribble is almost always printed. In fact, it's almost completely in 'small caps'. Meaning all letters are capitals. True capital letters being larger than the rest. I cannot say that learning cursive writing has aided me in life. I'd have just as soon that they hadn't wasted time on that and taught me something else, instead.
It is worth remembering that the amount that our kids learn in school is limited not by the amount of useful material that could be taught, but by the amount of time available to teach it. If there is something more valuable to be taught than cursive writing, I think that they should teach that other thing.
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sbell111
Member
Please forgive me for being amused.
That being said, perhaps if they weren't teaching cursive then more time could be given to math skills (or spelling). That being said, the fact that some people working the checkout counter of KMart or the drive-in window at Wendy's can't add doesn't mean that those skills are not being taught in school. A quick check of our local public school's graduation requirements found that in order to graduate, all children must take 4 math classes including Algebra I, II, Geometry and a fourth higher level math course. A quick glance at the State's curriculum requirements further found that math instruction is required in all years K-8. Given that TN is ranked somewhere right in the middle for math and science, I suspect that most states have similar curriculum requirements.
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Cursive writing requires fine muscle control. I'm sure there are others here who know about brain development, but my mother was one of the first "early childhood education" folks in Chicago. (Headstart was one of the off-shoots) Fine motor control was necessary for many activities.
Perhaps the same skills are developed today with joysticks--I honestly don't know enough about the topic.
Hopefully, someone else does.
Perhaps the same skills are developed today with joysticks--I honestly don't know enough about the topic.
Hopefully, someone else does.
terryf
Member
sbell111
Member
Thanks. Sometimes when I make a 'live' rewrite the stuff in my brain doesn't always land in the post.
whegge
Member
I am not sure who it was that said it...but it is up to the parents! To many times I read or hear something in the news that says "What are we supposed to do? The schools no longer want to teach this!" I have had this conversation with my wife many times. I keep saying we (parents) need to do this NOT the school.
Give your kids or grand kids pens. Make them use it! Make it fun!
One parent I know writes a note to her kids every morning and puts it under their door. It is usually a list of chores and a little personal stuff. The kids need to respond and put it under her door by the time she gets home. She has, in the past, written very sloppy on purpose so the kids cannot read her handwriting. The kids complain. She pulls out the last note they sent to her and showed them their handwriting!
Guess my point is - Just because the schools don't. Does not mean we should not.
Wes
Give your kids or grand kids pens. Make them use it! Make it fun!
One parent I know writes a note to her kids every morning and puts it under their door. It is usually a list of chores and a little personal stuff. The kids need to respond and put it under her door by the time she gets home. She has, in the past, written very sloppy on purpose so the kids cannot read her handwriting. The kids complain. She pulls out the last note they sent to her and showed them their handwriting!
Guess my point is - Just because the schools don't. Does not mean we should not.
Wes
sbell111
Member
She's the expert, but I don't see how cursive writing would promote fine motor skills any more than printing would. Beyond that, I suspect that some of the fine motor skills of most thirteen year old girls could put us all to shame due to their heavy texting.
(I suppose that the 'fine motor skill' theory could help explain why I ALWAYS type 'teh'.)
BlackPearl
Member
This only applies to Public Schools. The kids of the "successful" people, that are of the finest stock, will go to Private schools. They will get all the education that they will need to maintain their distance from the riff raff that have to go to public schools.
Timebandit
Member
Hmmm....I went to a public school......................What are saying..................
Phunky_2003
Member
Riff raff lol
Timebandit
Member
BlackPearl
Member
So do I, ( a public school graduate) but we are talking about the future where the people with money are not going to spend it on the community. They can afford a good education for their kids, so why should they pay twice.
sbell111
Member
With the exception of graduate school, I went to public schools. My wife went to private schools. I guess the attempt at keeping her away from the 'riff raff' didn't work. Further, I haven't identified any areas in which either of our educations were lacking. If anything, I would argue that my public school education was more comprehensive, but she would not agree with me.
Phunky_2003
Member
So do I, ( a public school graduate) but we are talking about the future where the people with money are not going to spend it on the community. They can afford a good education for their kids, so why should they pay twice.
Why would they pay twice? They already pay twice. People with money own their own home and/or purchasing home. They pay taxes on that home. Part of those taxes are school taxes that go to whatever school district they live in.
And basically your entire remark makes no sense. A majority of "well off" people do in all actuality put money into their community. That's why said community thrives.
sbell111
Member
Other than the fact that your tax dollars go toward public education regardless of whether your child attends public schools or whether you even have school-aged children, I can't imagine why someone would spend thier money on schools (public or private) if their children didn't attend them.
Phunky_2003
Member
And I did go to a private school for a period of time. There is no basic difference except the class sizes are smaller and it is on a more personal level. The education requirements and goals in both systems are the same basically. If you think the education is lacking in your school as a parent it is your job to fill that gap. The rest is with the state which sets the standards, your local school follows those standards.
BlackPearl
Member
But as we see here in Texas, if the people who decide how to spend the tax money decide that education get cuts back, it cuts down on the money that need to be raised in taxes.
Dallas area school districts were faced with the decision to keep school guards (Police) or teachers, the cut the teachers. The state legislature did not give them enough money and they were not about to talk about raising taxes on a local level.
Thank you Governor Perry. Less than 90 days after he won re-election by stating the the state was in a good financial situation.
BlackPearl
Member
That was then you are talking about the past, we are talking about the future.
Requirements, Goals and Standards can be changed our last Governor enacted such strict rules about standardized tests that this is what the schools teach now. It is no longer about education it is about Passing the test so the school will have enough funding to teach the test next year.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I know this is extreme, but we bought our house, based, in large part, on the school district. It was rated in the top five in the state for elementary and High school. So, my kids got a good---albeit public----education.
You CAN find good public schools, but you do have to LOOK. Milwaukee and Racine are both terrible (generally speaking--which is dangerous).
You CAN find good public schools, but you do have to LOOK. Milwaukee and Racine are both terrible (generally speaking--which is dangerous).
firewhatfire
Member
so we need to get into the stylus creating business.
Its like the ol saying make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. We have to adjust with the times. Just go take a look at the how old is everyone post to find out of if people change with the times. How many 60+ yo folks on here. Those who are changed with the times. I live around a bunch that will die before they touch a computer, they think anything that different from their time is of the devil.
I hope I never get left behind by the times. I also hope I can bring a little of it along with me to show those who are interested.
Phil
Its like the ol saying make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. We have to adjust with the times. Just go take a look at the how old is everyone post to find out of if people change with the times. How many 60+ yo folks on here. Those who are changed with the times. I live around a bunch that will die before they touch a computer, they think anything that different from their time is of the devil.
I hope I never get left behind by the times. I also hope I can bring a little of it along with me to show those who are interested.
Phil
Holz Mechaniker
Member
Well lets think on this.
You can find Calligraphy sets so it might be something that will be needed in the future only instead of Calligraphy lessons. it will be simple penmanship lessons with our pens...:biggrin:
Now there is nothing wrong in having Calligraphy sets either:wink:
You can find Calligraphy sets so it might be something that will be needed in the future only instead of Calligraphy lessons. it will be simple penmanship lessons with our pens...:biggrin:
Now there is nothing wrong in having Calligraphy sets either:wink:
sbell111
Member
You're making my argument.
There is only so much that can be taught. In order to ensure that the most important stuff is taught, you have to cut the less important stuff.
Phunky_2003
Member
Both of my kids just graduated. My daughter just last month. Who by the way got a full scholarship to UTA on her public school just pass the test education. I am not thinking in the past. We've looked into private/ public sectors for the past several years. In both of our kids educations in high school and moving on to college. These pass the test rules have been around in Texas since my kids have been in school and probably longer. They had to pass standardized tests back in the 4 th grade then in the 6th, 8th, 10th and 12th grades.
And our Governor didn't pass these requirements, the state board of education and the senate and legislature passes these. They have the same guidelines for private schools. Again the only basic difference is class size and more one on one instruction.
The biggest problem for public schools is how they receive their tax dollars. It is something that needs to be overhauled.
BlackPearl
Member
sbell111;1252516[/quote said:
And you are making mine, only those wealthy enough not to have to work two jobs each to keep a place to live and food on the table, and fortunate enough to understand and be able TO teach an understanding, can have kids with an education. No Art education, no music (other than marching band, to play at half time) no physical education other than organized sports that produce income, no Theater Arts.
All the "less important stuff"
Both of my Kids had public education through High School and a Private 4 year College education. One in Computer Science and one in Chemistry.
The Computer Science major's job got outsourced to India after 4 years on the job because it was cheaper, and better for the bottom line.
The Chemist never has had a job in her field because she needed a masters and multiple years experience just to get an entry level position. Everyone she was competing against was down sized,from somewhere else and had the experience, so why not hire them?
BlackPearl
Member
Phunky,
Your daughter was not even born when the last Gov. signed the law that set up the standardized tests in 1991, so yes she has had them all her life.
Did she apply to any out of state schools? How did she do with them? UTA is also a State School.
I am sorry, I am sure your daughter is intelligent, I do not intend to make this personal, but there is more to life than Math, Reading and Writing.
Which is how this all started.
Your daughter was not even born when the last Gov. signed the law that set up the standardized tests in 1991, so yes she has had them all her life.
Did she apply to any out of state schools? How did she do with them? UTA is also a State School.
I am sorry, I am sure your daughter is intelligent, I do not intend to make this personal, but there is more to life than Math, Reading and Writing.
Which is how this all started.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Recently, I saw Michael Dell (Dell computer) interviewed. He commented that when they were looking for a software architect, few would apply to fill the vacant spots.
(Aside: I also read a software mag that says this is the number one job in computing, currently with an average wage hovering right at $100,000 a year)
However, when they advertise for help in their warehouse, several thousand will apply for the hundred or so jobs.
(Aside: I also read a software mag that says this is the number one job in computing, currently with an average wage hovering right at $100,000 a year)
However, when they advertise for help in their warehouse, several thousand will apply for the hundred or so jobs.
Timebandit
Member
I normally stay out of conversations like this until something stupid is said..........and im hoping you understand the reason i am writing now...........This is a stupid statement. Neither of my parents worked 2 jobs, neither where wealthy, we had a place to live, we had food on the table, we were fortunate enough to understand and were taught an understanding, and me and my brother were highly intelligent childern with an education.....and we went to public schools.........we still are, my brother can fix and do anything on a computer. I am studying Electronics Engineering....Again we are not wealthy and went to a public school. You have a pretty skewed idea of the way childerns intelligence is acquired. Money isnt everything. I know some absolute idiots that were rich and went to the best schools. I also know some of the most brilliant people that came from the public school system.
I think you are being a little insulting by saying that people who go to public schools are "Riff-Raff"
Peace
eace::airplane:
Parson
Member
You all know what amazes me most about this thread? The commonly misspelled words in the comments!
Who cares if the cursive is pretty looking if one uses wright instead of write or loose instead of lose?
Now onto the topic at hand (literally)...
My mom wanted a girl, but God blessed her with three boys. This didn't stop her from forcing us to sit at the breakfast room table and practice our cursive and overall penmanship for hours on end each week . . . as if we were little girls who would enjoy that sort of thing.
My point? Schools should be expected to supplement the teaching of some things, not be considered the sole or primary source of knowledge and skill in all areas. Parents today are convinced that it's the school system's job to raise their children, discipline them, teach them everything they need to know about life (nutrition, social skills, etc.), and keep them out of trouble. Ask any teacher if they agree with me and you won't hear one opposing thought on this subject. Every teacher I know is completely fed up with the lack of active parenting provided by most procreating adults populating his or her classroom.
Those that want their children to learn how to write in cursive will teach them the way my mother did with me and my brothers. We hated it, but we all have beautiful penmanship, and all three of us enjoy writing with a fine writing instrument.
The sooner society concludes that public schooling is supplemental, the better off we will be.
I leave you with this: Why is it called penmanship instead of penwomanship?
Who cares if the cursive is pretty looking if one uses wright instead of write or loose instead of lose?
Now onto the topic at hand (literally)...
My mom wanted a girl, but God blessed her with three boys. This didn't stop her from forcing us to sit at the breakfast room table and practice our cursive and overall penmanship for hours on end each week . . . as if we were little girls who would enjoy that sort of thing.
My point? Schools should be expected to supplement the teaching of some things, not be considered the sole or primary source of knowledge and skill in all areas. Parents today are convinced that it's the school system's job to raise their children, discipline them, teach them everything they need to know about life (nutrition, social skills, etc.), and keep them out of trouble. Ask any teacher if they agree with me and you won't hear one opposing thought on this subject. Every teacher I know is completely fed up with the lack of active parenting provided by most procreating adults populating his or her classroom.
Those that want their children to learn how to write in cursive will teach them the way my mother did with me and my brothers. We hated it, but we all have beautiful penmanship, and all three of us enjoy writing with a fine writing instrument.
The sooner society concludes that public schooling is supplemental, the better off we will be.
I leave you with this: Why is it called penmanship instead of penwomanship?
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Woodlvr
Member
I would think that we still need to teach our children and grandchildren how to write "cursive". I know that technology is taking us away from writing and now it is all typing basically. Kind of depressing to me.
Phunky_2003
Member
She applied and we visited several in-state and out-of-state campuses. She could have basically went to any she wanted. She has acceptance letters from a vast variety of campuses. And still gets stuff daily in the mail.
While she is well educated in reading, math, and writing, that isn't her primary focus. She was a member of the student counsil for 4 years, on the newspaper staff and yearbook staff, she competed in UIL competitions yearly in theater arts and creative speaking. She also played several sports. She also has designed several websites for local companies and logo designs for companies. She also is currently designing billboards for a company in Dallas.
I don't take things personally the majority of the time, especially on a message board. It's too difficult to see what context somethings are said or implied. So I basically read and reply without personal feelings. I have been moderated a few times for things I've said..... Most of the time jokingly but things happen.
My main point with my posts are/is the education system is broken. Not the teachers! Although a lot of great teachers have been lost due to the system. Until they fix the system and how they receive their tax dollars it will not improve. The pass this test system was implemented due to this system failure it didn't cause the failure. More and more will fall onto the parents shoulders to supply what they feel is important in their kids education and up bringing. I also believe those who check will be surprised at how little difference private/public systems are now.
It gets a little too close on politics on what is wrong with the education system across America to post here so I'll just leave that be.
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PaulDoug
Member
Ha, I was just wondering about pens. Sorry to start such a heated discussion. I wasn't even wondering if it was a good or bad thing that they are (or appear to) be giving less attention to penmanship (guess I should have written curvus or what ever it is). In my day it was called writing, first you learned to print and then "write". Anyway go ahead with your discussions if you want, I'll sit here and wonder about the poor, forgotten pen.