Finishing experiment

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
KenB259

KenB259

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
3,568
Location
Michigan
Blank is just a glue up tryout, I know it's a "POS". But what do you think of the finish? Not the best photo, just used my phone. What product do you think I finished it with?
IMG_1920.JPG



Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
D

Dehn0045

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,533
Location
US
Looks like a thin CA with a flex modifier (dimethyl sebacate), it might have other additives but this is all that is listed on the SDS. Gluboost and Mercury Flex both use dibutyl phthalate, but again both of these might have other additives also. In all my CA studies this is the first I've seen dimethyl sebacate
 
KenB259

KenB259

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
3,568
Location
Michigan
As viscosity goes , it's on the thick side. Because it is repositional for three minutes I thought it might be a good candidate for finishing. I did use accelerant. Also been using it to glue up wood segments. So far, I've had no failures.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
 
MRDucks2

MRDucks2

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
3,227
Location
Bristow, IN
I have used it successfully on some laminate repair. Never tried it for a finish. I have learned you do not need to worry about shelf life. It dries up in the bottle on me after a few months, so you definitely know when not to use it anymore. Not a bad product by any means.
 
D

Dehn0045

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,533
Location
US
Did a little research and ran across this interesting patent that involves CA with plasticizers (my understanding is that this is basically what we generally refer to as 'flex').


This is the paragraph that I found interesting:

"Many external plasticisers show only an initial effect so that when the composition is first polymerised the polymeric material formed is relatively flexible. With many plasticisers however ageing of the polymeric material (often a bond) reveals that the flexibility initially imparted to the material by incorporation of the plasticiser is lost as time passes. Accordingly with many of the known plasticisers the polymeric material becomes brittle over a relatively short period, for example a number of weeks, and the initial desired flexibility is lost. Furthermore it has been noted that using internal plasticisation may suffer from the same drawback. "

I'm sure the people at Gluboost and Mercury (and others) know all about this stuff and have spent tons of time testing out different plasticizers and whatnot. I'm not sure it is really relevant for typical penturners - just stick with what works - I just found it interesting so thought I would share.
 
wolf creek knives

wolf creek knives

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Messages
3,053
Location
Wolf Creek Montana
Dehn0045 said:
Did a little research and ran across this interesting patent that involves CA with plasticizers (my understanding is that this is basically what we generally refer to as 'flex').


This is the paragraph that I found interesting:

"Many external plasticisers show only an initial effect so that when the composition is first polymerised the polymeric material formed is relatively flexible. With many plasticisers however ageing of the polymeric material (often a bond) reveals that the flexibility initially imparted to the material by incorporation of the plasticiser is lost as time passes. Accordingly with many of the known plasticisers the polymeric material becomes brittle over a relatively short period, for example a number of weeks, and the initial desired flexibility is lost. Furthermore it has been noted that using internal plasticisation may suffer from the same drawback. "

I'm sure the people at Gluboost and Mercury (and others) know all about this stuff and have spent tons of time testing out different plasticizers and whatnot. I'm not sure it is really relevant for typical penturners - just stick with what works - I just found it interesting so thought I would share.
Click to expand...


English please, I was a Business Major (chemistry is way beyond my education level).
 
D

Dehn0045

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,533
Location
US
wolf creek knives said:
English please, I was a Business Major (chemistry is way beyond my education level).
Click to expand...

Most standard thin CA is a pure chemical, ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate. When this polymerizes (cures) it forms a hard but brittle surface (something we encounter with pens, the hard being good but the brittle being bad). Adding another component to the mix can do a lot of different things, most notably slow the cure time and increase flexibility of the polymer. Typically medium and thick CA are just mixtures of ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate (thin CA) and methyl methacrylate (plexiglass) as a thickener. When you move to 'flex' the additives are a little more exotic and are supposed to react with the ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate in a specific way to yield specific properties. Kind of like how different metal alloys have different properties - think cast iron versus 316 stainless. Just like when metals get too hot, the environment can change properties of the CA polymer (usually platic gets brittle, especially in the sun). The paragraph that I highlighted suggests that some CA with 'flex' can quickly lose their 'flex' properties or have other undesired degradation (within weeks). I suspect that CA manufacturers that market their product for finishes (Mercury/Gluboost) have tested this and it's not surprising that they both use the same plasticizer. The one that Ken has here by Dap uses a different platicizer, so I wonder about it's long-term performance as a finish. It's possible that it could perform even better than others - maybe the others avoided this particular platicizer for cost/availability issues. I personally stick with plain old thin CA (ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate) because I like the devil I know better than the one that I don't. But either way, I find it all very interesting (I hope my explanation helped).
 
KenB259

KenB259

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
3,568
Location
Michigan
Very interesting. Thanks for educating us all. I too will stick with what I've been using. I am just going to keep this little experiment around and look at it every once in awhile to see if it yellows or cracks or whatever. In my mind though, it never hurts to try different things once in awhile. CA, I imagine was not made to be a finish until one guy somewhere started experimenting.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
 
wolf creek knives

wolf creek knives

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Messages
3,053
Location
Wolf Creek Montana
Dehn0045 said:
Most standard thin CA is a pure chemical, ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate. When this polymerizes (cures) it forms a hard but brittle surface (something we encounter with pens, the hard being good but the brittle being bad). Adding another component to the mix can do a lot of different things, most notably slow the cure time and increase flexibility of the polymer. Typically medium and thick CA are just mixtures of ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate (thin CA) and methyl methacrylate (plexiglass) as a thickener. When you move to 'flex' the additives are a little more exotic and are supposed to react with the ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate in a specific way to yield specific properties. Kind of like how different metal alloys have different properties - think cast iron versus 316 stainless. Just like when metals get too hot, the environment can change properties of the CA polymer (usually platic gets brittle, especially in the sun). The paragraph that I highlighted suggests that some CA with 'flex' can quickly lose their 'flex' properties or have other undesired degradation (within weeks). I suspect that CA manufacturers that market their product for finishes (Mercury/Gluboost) have tested this and it's not surprising that they both use the same plasticizer. The one that Ken has here by Dap uses a different platicizer, so I wonder about it's long-term performance as a finish. It's possible that it could perform even better than others - maybe the others avoided this particular platicizer for cost/availability issues. I personally stick with plain old thin CA (ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate) because I like the devil I know better than the one that I don't. But either way, I find it all very interesting (I hope my explanation helped).
Click to expand...


Thank you for the explanation, it makes sense to me now and I have a much better understanding.
 
J

JBturning

Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Messages
1
Location
West Virginia
Hello all,
I just started turning pens recently and have been reading this group with interest. Have not yet posted as I was in a learning mode, but wanted to comment on this subject. I suspect this company is using dimethyl sebacate as a plasticizer instead of dibutylphthalate (DBP) for environmental reasons rather than performance. Most phthalates have health concerns and are not desirable. DBP, for example, is banned for many materials sold into Europe such as children's toys. It is not uncommon for companies to try to eliminate such materials from their formulations and inventories. I am not familiar with the use of dimethyl sebacate as a plasticizer, but apparently it is food contact approved so less likely to be of concern. I do not know this for sure, but a quick internet search suggested such. Cyanoacrylate is not considered food contact safe, so this would not affect end use, but the company would have eliminated the use of phthalates.
 
jttheclockman

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,132
Location
NJ, USA.
Dehn0045 said:
Is the year 1999?
Click to expand...
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I am sensing some tension and I guess I made your list. Well just add me to it that is fine. I have a long list here.

POS point of sale for the OP. We are our own worse critiques.
 
Last edited:
D

Dehn0045

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,533
Location
US
jttheclockman said:
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I am sensing some tension and I guess I made your list. Well just add me to it that is fine. I have a long list here.
Click to expand...

lol, no list, I actually thought you were joking. Since the early 2000s the acronym has had a pretty standard meaning - especially given the context of the thread. Check for yourself here: https://www.urbandictionary.com/ (warning, may include vulgar language)
 
egnald

egnald

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,105
Location
Columbus, Nebraska, USA
I have found the technical information very interesting. It makes me think that there is a difference between Stick Fast "CA Glue" and Stick Fast "CA Wood Finish" after all. That being the plasticizer additives. Both materials are listed separately on their MSDS, but the only composition information is typical CA as >80% mixture.

Dave
 
Last edited:
D

Dehn0045

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,533
Location
US
egnald said:
the only composition information is typical CA as >80% mixture.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it seems that the formulation details tend to be trade secrets or at least not widely publicized. Other than what is required to be listed on the SDS, its hard to know what else is going on. The Stickfast SDS is rather generic compared to all of the other CA glue SDSs. I find it hard to believe that their medium/thick/flex don't contain other hazardous materials. The SDS on their website is pretty old though, 2012, and the requirements may have changed. I found this version ( https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/msds/ca-adhesives-msds.pdf ) and it lists "Acrylic Polymer", which I would guess is methyl methacrylate, but it doesn't provide details. Hydroquinone is a polymerization inhibitor that I would guess is being used to either slow cure time or improve shelf life.
 
egnald

egnald

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2017
Messages
3,105
Location
Columbus, Nebraska, USA
Dehn0045 said:
and it lists "Acrylic Polymer", which I would guess is methyl methacrylate, but it doesn't provide details. Hydroquinone is a polymerization inhibitor that I would guess is being used to either slow cure time or improve shelf life.
Click to expand...

They do say that there is an extended working time in some of their ads for the "finish".
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
TonyL

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,915
Location
Georgia
Dehn0045 said:
Most standard thin CA is a pure chemical, ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate. When this polymerizes (cures) it forms a hard but brittle surface (something we encounter with pens, the hard being good but the brittle being bad). Adding another component to the mix can do a lot of different things, most notably slow the cure time and increase flexibility of the polymer. Typically medium and thick CA are just mixtures of ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate (thin CA) and methyl methacrylate (plexiglass) as a thickener. When you move to 'flex' the additives are a little more exotic and are supposed to react with the ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate in a specific way to yield specific properties. Kind of like how different metal alloys have different properties - think cast iron versus 316 stainless. Just like when metals get too hot, the environment can change properties of the CA polymer (usually platic gets brittle, especially in the sun). The paragraph that I highlighted suggests that some CA with 'flex' can quickly lose their 'flex' properties or have other undesired degradation (within weeks). I suspect that CA manufacturers that market their product for finishes (Mercury/Gluboost) have tested this and it's not surprising that they both use the same plasticizer. The one that Ken has here by Dap uses a different platicizer, so I wonder about it's long-term performance as a finish. It's possible that it could perform even better than others - maybe the others avoided this particular platicizer for cost/availability issues. I personally stick with plain old thin CA (ethyl-2-cyanoacrylate) because I like the devil I know better than the one that I don't. But either way, I find it all very interesting (I hope my explanation helped).
Click to expand...
thank you. i learned something.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Previous Next
Top Bottom