Ever hear of this before?

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In the food, cooking movement that is occuring now. Is like the back to the land movement of our generation in the 70's and the Whole Earth catalog/Mother earth news magazine before it went up scale and glossy paper. Only it is truly the whole earth, with the internet!

My son is in to BBQing, cooking and bottling BBQ sauces. He has done a number of them in the Detroit area, They have a large group of Small time farmers,and other food related makers/sellers that are at the eastern farmers market in Detroit.

He has also been to a number those type fairs, taste testing, swaps they call them all different titles. Some are just eatable, some include kitchen gadgets/items.

You can tap into the local scene by googling epicure, Epicurean, food blogs and your local. Depending on how active it is your area. They are coming on the radar of the local health depts and the FDA.
:clown:
 
I will add that at one he did they had a couple making and selling cutting boards for use. They were made from recycled building materials, cabinets,doors, boards and hardware. Some had rust, and the copper/brass hardware had verdigris(the green corrosion). As verdigris consists of various poisonous copper compounds it can cause big problems, not to mention all the old layers of faded and chipping paint. (some containing lead based paint)
If that wasn't scary enough, there were people buying them to use a daily cutting boards!

So you may want to check them out before signing up, as the people putting it on said it wasn't their problem! :rolleyes:
:clown:
 
I read a story a while back where there was a group of farmers doing something similar. Some grew Produce, some handled the Meat and one did the milk and they just took care of each others needs and they were doing well. Well the guy providing the milk was giving it straight out of the cow and each farmer did as they pleased with it. FDA caught wind and shut him down, COMPLETELY. He not only traded the milk w/ the other farmers but it was also his lively hood and they took it all away.

This is going to be the way of the future soon. Folks becoming dependent on themselves and each other. Communities taking care of communities and the government in the backseat where they belong.
 
Justturnin said:
FDA caught wind and shut him down, COMPLETELY.
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Let me start by saying with all of the news coverage of the problems, deaths and illnesses in the last couple of years due to. Salmonella, E. coli, and Listeria, why would you want to put your family, children, grandchildren at risk? I know they stopped teaching that information in the late 70's at least in the school system I worked in.

Well he was putting a lot of people, children and newborns in danger. People that went to school in my age group 60's learned what pasteurization was all about. And The guy that invented the process and why!
The Dangers of Raw Milk: Unpasteurized Milk Can Pose a Serious Health Risk

The following are the real important bits!

These harmful bacteria can seriously affect the health of anyone who drinks raw milk, or eats foods made from raw milk. However, the bacteria in raw milk can be especially dangerous to people with weakened immune systems, older adults, pregnant women, and children. In fact, the CDC analysis found that foodborne illness from raw milk especially affected children and teenagers.
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Raw Milk & Pasteurization: Debunking Milk Myths

While pasteurization has helped provide safe, nutrient-rich milk and cheese for over 120 years, some people continue to believe that pasteurization harms milk and that raw milk is a safe healthier alternative.
Here are some common myths and proven facts about milk and pasteurization:

  • Pasteurizing milk DOES NOT cause lactose intolerance and allergic reactions. Both raw milk and pasteurized milk can cause allergic reactions in people sensitive to milk proteins.
  • Raw milk DOES NOT kill dangerous pathogens by itself.
  • Pasteurization DOES NOT reduce milk's nutritional value.
  • Pasteurization DOES NOT mean that it is safe to leave milk out of the refrigerator for extended time, particularly after it has been opened.
  • Pasteurization DOES kill harmful bacteria.
  • Pasteurization DOES save lives.
Raw Milk and Serious Illness

Symptoms and Advice

Symptoms of foodborne illness include:

  • Vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain
  • Flulike symptoms such as fever, headache, and body ache
While most healthy people will recover from an illness caused by harmful bacteria in raw milk - or in foods made with raw milk - within a short period of time, some can develop symptoms that are chronic, severe, or even life-threatening.
If you or someone you know becomes ill after consuming raw milk or products made from raw milk - or, if you are pregnant and think you could have consumed contaminated raw milk or cheese - see a doctor or healthcare provider immediately.:doctor:
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We had the same thing around here a while ago. People were getting sick from the milk due to sloppy hygiene practices of the farmer. Her defense was she didn't get sick, but she had been ingesting the cow crap for a long time. And somebody that knew well, did say that she seemed like she had a lot bouts of stomach flu! :rolleyes:

If you eat at any place out side your home, you have likely had a mild case of it repeatedly over the years, from one of the 3 mentioned above. Most people pass it off as the stomach flu which is nonsense!

People will continue to do what they think is right whether they are wrong or not.
:clown:
 
I could understand if he was just selling it as is to random people but these were all capable Farmers that handled the milk themselves and knew the risks. While I know Pasteurization is a great thing, should it be law? People get sick from eating raw/undercooked meat, fish and chicken, should we sell all of them precooked? I just think it is an overreach by big brother. I, personally, would by Pasteurized milk but to buy unpasteurized should be an option if that's your thing. People drank milk like this for centuries.

Never the less, I think the OP is a great thing and I would love to find something like that in my parts.
 
Yep, you gotta watch that milk fresh outta the cow. Having to drink that when I was growing up on the ranch killed me and my siblings!

As for the OP, my gramma did the food trade thing nearly every day. But that's what farmers and ranchers just did back 30 years ago and more. If you raised chickens, or had enough to produce a good quantity of eggs, you'd trade to a farmer who grew corn, or something of the like. The barter system has always been a good system, especially in days of low cash flow.
 
Justturnin said:
I could understand if he was just selling it as is to random people but these were all capable Farmers that handled the milk themselves and knew the risks. While I know Pasteurization is a great thing, should it be law? People get sick from eating raw/undercooked meat, fish and chicken, should we sell all of them precooked? I just think it is an overreach by big brother. I, personally, would by Pasteurized milk but to buy unpasteurized should be an option if that's your thing. People drank milk like this for centuries.

Never the less, I think the OP is a great thing and I would love to find something like that in my parts.
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Epicurious.com: Recipes, Menus, Cooking Articles & Food Guides try this site and or add your local since I have no idea about what other cities or towns around you, you could try food events and your local.

alamocdc said:
Yep, you gotta watch that milk fresh outta the cow. Having to drink that when I was growing up on the ranch killed me and my siblings!
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I bet today more people aren't raised on ranches or farms. And your Granma probably was a lot more careful about what was allowed in the milk pan/pail and who she handled it then some of the people doing it today!
Besides most people don't die from drinking the raw milk "SOME" just get sick.
:clown:
 
Justturnin said:
While I know Pasteurization is a great thing, should it be law? People get sick from eating raw/undercooked meat, fish and chicken, should we sell all of them precooked? .......
Never the less, I think the OP is a great thing and I would love to find something like that in my parts.
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the answer to that question is yes it should be law.

If the small guy can get away with trading goods that are unsafe why can not Borden's, and if it is less expensive and will allow a greater return to the investors, companies will do it, and people will die.

Every time I go out to eat with friends and they order ground meat rare or even Medium rare I can not comprehend how ignorant people are, not to know the difference between ground meat with all the germs that live on the surface of the meat as apposed to a steak that has limited surface area.

I have often asked the question, "Name me one service or industry that works better and less expensive after it has been deregulated." No one has ever been able to give me an example.
 
Wait a minute......we cant even discuss new ways of gathering food and the stupid food regs that get in the way!?!? That seems more than a bit extreme! I highly value the no politics rule but lets nbe realistic.........regulation is part of almost any subject!


Navycop

The only thing new in the article is that it's organized through the internet. Comunities have been doing food exchanges for ......well as long as we have been farming! The Neo Tribalists really give me hope for our future as humans, blending old traditions with new tech is, I beleive, the only path to a sustainable future.
 
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BlackPearl said:
I have often asked the question, "Name me one service or industry that works better and less expensive after it has been deregulated." No one has ever been able to give me an example.
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I never said anything about Regs. As you said folks are ignorant but it's not Big Bro's job to protect them from themselves, it's their own job. I don't care if your left, right, up, down, blue, red, green, donkey, elephant or a cup of TEA, I dont need to you to keep me safe from myself.
 
Rick the issue is that the amount of government involvement or lack there of is a political topic. Jeff put that law in place to keep things civil and we need to respect that.
 
I grew up on a farm a lot of these issues can be prevented by proper handling. The milk comes out of the animal and has to be cooled right away. We raised goats for milk (my Dad raised cows as a boy and hated them) and we sold milk to two people on a regular basis and had no issues, however my parents were very particular as to how it was handled and if there was any questions the milk want to the dog. When the neighbour was between hired hands I would help him with milking 100 cows. His system was quiet modern but wasn't kept all that clean there is no way I would drink raw milk from that dairy.
The main animal we raised was pigs. If you fed them scraps and sold at the stock yards and were caught you were shut down. There is a lot more to farming than most people know. If I didn't know the person who raised, canned, perserved, or butchered what I was buying without a FDA inspection I wouldn't buy it.
 
alphageek said:
Rick the issue is that the amount of government involvement or lack there of is a political topic. Jeff put that law in place to keep things civil and we need to respect that.
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I get, respect, admire and greatly apreciate that! I just didnt think we were getting that close to an edge. Honestly it's kinda tuff to discuss the pros and cons of unpasturized milk without mentioning the historical context and need for some regulation......PS Im not tryin to get in yer face man I just am tryin to find the boundries.

I agree with Displaced Canadian completely, I also grew up on a small farm, and would only add that unpasturized milk does have a lot of benifits and tastes wonderful!......but without knowing how it was handled Im not drinkin it! As in any type of food processing how it's done is very important, doubly so for milk.
 
Displaced Canadian said:
If I didn't know the person who raised, canned, perserved, or butchered what I was buying without a FDA inspection I wouldn't buy it.
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Bingo. If you look back at the history of preserving you will find lots of deaths caused by mishandled food. Gives a new meaning to the term killer jelly. My grandmother, because of government restrictions on the family farm and what could and could not be done (long super cool story), was very happy that her canning never made anyone sick and until the restrictions were lifted she preserved everything.

I've had to toss the well meaning hobby farmer's gift of preserved food because of obvious mishandling.

There is a sizable amount of science in the correct handling of food.
 
We do a lot of fresh exchanges then can, smoke, dry or pickle our own. Salmon for caribou.....berries for cucumbers. About 90% of our diet comes from our little garden or the fields and waters of Alaska but even if you love Caribou some variety is a good thing!

One of many reasons I am looking forward to gettin this dang cast off......some duck sounds good....anything but caribou sounds good!
 
I wasn't trying to start WW3½, Just after being in the school system for 35 years. They are lacking in what was taught and what is now taught.
I know that I will not change anybodies mind on drinking not drinking or eating cheese products.
The point is with all the food safe guards we have now, They just expanded the peanut butter recall from Trader Joe's brand to include about 76 other brands. This is due to the same bacteria that can be in unpasteurized milk.
Not checking on line sources I think I recall at least 4 or 5 outbreaks of bacteria that either made the local or national news. Either putting people in the hospital or killing somebody.

People today are not as smart as our parents or grandparents are/were, people don't think or understand basic hygiene, science, mechanics all the things that promote a interesting life.

There is nothing called common sense, and only what can be called uncommon sense because the majority of the sheeple don't have it!
I understand some have a need to discuss anything that strikes their fancy.

Stop and think about the fact that 50-60 years ago pasteurization was only 50-60 years old Doctors still went to the hospital to see their patients. Not like today, were you can see 20 assorted doctors in a hospital and your family doctor will not hear a thing till you tell him/her.

I bet if your granma/parents knew some of the stuff that is know today, they would do things different. :wink:
:clown:
 
Haynie

Too illustrate your point........back when Tupperware was first introduced to Native Alaskans there was a huge breakout of food poisoning. The Natives of the far north ferment many of there meats in grass baskets buried in permafrost. Ya it's as bad as it sound but not at all deadly, basically it's pickled meat. It also keeps much longer at mild temps than unfermented meat. There is a similar scandinavian dish done with shark meat.

Back on track. The tupperware was completely unsuitable for the task and folks ended up with a winters worth of rotted not fermented meat. It's eaten frozen so smell is similar and if it is all you have to eat you have to give it a try! (I know folks who have had to eat there house pets!) The theory is the baskets allowed stuff to drain while keeping the meat in a cool anaerobic environment, the tupperware didn't.
 
PT

Dude I am a subsistance hunter living in Alaska......anytime you want to compaire skill sets or ability to adapt you step on up!
 
Rick P said:
PT

Dude I am a subsistance hunter living in Alaska......anytime you want to compaire skill sets or ability to adapt you step on up!
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I have no idea what you are hot about, as I wasn't taking about you or any one in particular, nor was I challenging your ability!

People today that live in the cities and grew up in the cities are generally far stupider then their for-bearers.
They don't learn what they need to do things. Most have no skill set short of dragging their debit card through the reader @ a 7/11 store, they just jump in on the fad. As the old saying goes "Ignorance is Bliss".
:clown:
 
alphageek said:
Rick the issue is that the amount of government involvement or lack there of is a political topic. Jeff put that law in place to keep things civil and we need to respect that.
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Let me clarify a little bit. I don't think that discussions about government per-se are off limits. The reason we avoid such topics is that they nearly always take a turn for the worse when someone just has to get on his soapbox and trumpet his opinions about who's right and who's wrong. It's the partisan nature of politics that is off-limits here.

What we really want to avoid is extreme bashing from one side or another. If you are way over to one side or another on any issue involving politics or government, either temper your comments or stay out of the conversation.

We don't want to see "X is right and Y is wrong!" or "we need to abolish XYZ agency!" or "It's all the fault of the X's". We don't want to see specific parties or candidates discussed.

I really do not want to shut down discussions about milk! The conversation doesn't have to go into the weeds. It's all up to you!
 
I grew up on a farm, but wasn't much of a farmer. :smile:

I make and can my own salsa, pickles, etc. - for my own use. While I'm willing to process food for my own personal use, I wouldn't feel right giving or selling it to someone and having their old grandmother get sick.

Food safety is centered around proper handling, and proper preparation. Without inspections, there's no way to know if a person has followed safety rules.

Farmer's market bread is something I wouldn't hesitate to buy, as bread isn't known for harbouring pathogens...but a side of venison or a jar of milk? No thanks.

I wouldn't eat someone else's canned salsa, as i wouldn't know if they knew about acidity requirements, pressure canning, etc - but I'll eat my own. I wouldn't drink unpasteurized milk either, as pasteurization is mandated for a reason.

While people likely survived without in the past - doctors wash their hands now, and milk is heated to reduce pathogens - both good rules! :smile:
 
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PT the problem is that folks are not dumber they simply live in diferent environments than "the good ole days". My wife is a perfect example, when we met she could not sew, set up a tent, drive a nail in. She can do all those and much more now because she adapted to her environment. I also got some bad news today so I am taking things more strongly than normal,,,,,,for that part I do apologise. But you should know that there are thousands of folks around the country including here in this forum that are working to keep these arts alive. And let's face it canning is not a necessary part of life for most folks, especially those who live in a city. Why know how to can if you have never seen a tomato plant?.......

My apologise to the group as a whole as well for side tracking this. Food exchanges are a very cool way to add variety to your local diet. But like I said fresh is, in my opinion, a safer way to go.
 
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BlackPearl said:
Justturnin said:
While I know Pasteurization is a great thing, should it be law? People get sick from eating raw/undercooked meat, fish and chicken, should we sell all of them precooked? .......
Never the less, I think the OP is a great thing and I would love to find something like that in my parts.
Click to expand...

the answer to that question is yes it should be law.

If the small guy can get away with trading goods that are unsafe why can not Borden's, and if it is less expensive and will allow a greater return to the investors, companies will do it, and people will die.

Every time I go out to eat with friends and they order ground meat rare or even Medium rare I can not comprehend how ignorant people are, not to know the difference between ground meat with all the germs that live on the surface of the meat as apposed to a steak that has limited surface area.

I have often asked the question, "Name me one service or industry that works better and less expensive after it has been deregulated." No one has ever been able to give me an example.
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Trucking and Airlines for two quickies.
 
"While people likely survived without in the past - doctors wash their hands now, and milk is heated to reduce pathogens - both good rules! :smile:

Agreed but......man I dont want to come off as a pot stirin prick here....more and more studies are showing that there are benefits to active yeasts in yogurt instead of pasteurizing. The enzymes and bacteria in sauerkraut are very bifocal but killed in commercial processing......believe it or not raw milk has anti bacterial qualities, and studies have shown it's of much higher nutritional value. Again though, monitored, raised by me or someone whose methods I know.
 
Rick P said:
Agreed but......man I dont want to come off as a pot stirin prick here....more and more studies are showing that there are benefits to active yeasts in yogurt instead of pasteurizing.
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Thats true, Rick - but those cultures (active yeasts) are added after the milk products in the yogurt are pasteurized in most of the good brands, not instead of pasteurizing!
 
I grew up on raw milk - we bought from a local farmer who also had a milk route. They did pasturize but would sell it for 2 cents a quart less if you took it raw.

I also raised six kids on raw milk - we bought directly from a dairy farmer and got our milk straight out of his bulk tank. We also had our own milch cow and drank her milk ourselves and sold it to neighbors (we had customers waiting in line to get it). We made our own cheese and butter also.

Milk is subject to many more regulations than simply pasturization. You might or might not be aware that the liquid milk you buy in the store did not come straight from a cow --- it is separated, dehydrated, stored as a solid and reconstituted --- sometimes with water and sometimes with whey.... milk fat is added to give you 1%, 2% and whole (4%) butter fat content.

Farmers are also subject to numerous regulations regarding how milk is handled on the farm and most milking systems are cleaner than the dishes you eat off every day.

That being said, if it scares you, don't drink unpasturized milk but I personally don't think I need the government to tell me I can't drink it if I want to....I don't have a big problem with them telling stores they can't sell it, or telling Borden's they can't provide it to stores, but if I want to buy it from a farmer, why not?
 
Rick I don't know how much time you spend in the a larger city. But most of the urban dwellers, can't find the arses with their hands in their back pockets.

Most of my neighbors can't pound a nail straight, the one neighbor had to have somebody come and help him sort out the parts for his sheet metal shed, since he couldn't figure out the instruction booklet.

A lot of them can't understand why anybody would do the things that most on this forum do on a daily basis, when you can just buy it new.

They are no longer taught to think and problem solve other than what the latest tech gadget is, and worrying about what the latest hollyweird nucklehead is doing.
:clown:
 
PTsideshow said:
Rick I don't know how much time you spend in the a larger city. But most of the urban dwellers, can't find the arses with their hands in their back pockets.

Most of my neighbors can't pound a nail straight, the one neighbor had to have somebody come and help him sort out the parts for his sheet metal shed, since he couldn't figure out the instruction booklet.

A lot of them can't understand why anybody would do the things that most on this forum do on a daily basis, when you can just buy it new.

They are no longer taught to think and problem solve other than what the latest tech gadget is, and worrying about what the latest hollyweird nucklehead is doing.
:clown:
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Well, I'm not surprised, since most of the instruction books are originally written in Chinese and translated to 7 other languages none of which were spoken by the translator. I don't remember the last one I got that didn't have at least a couple of errors.
 
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