Electrical Question
- Thread starter KenB259
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target64
Member
That answer is no. Switching it off via a surge protector is the same as switching it off on the item itself. All the surge protectors do is eliminate some problems due to spikes in electrical load. Unplugging will actually remove the item from the electrical system
What @target64 said.
You didn't say what type of surge protector, but I presume it's either a power strip or a single outlet that plugs into a wall socket. In either case, the switch might disconnect only the Hot wire or both the Hot and Neutral wires (depending on the particular model).
In either case, the ground wire from your tool is still connected to the electrical system when you turn the switch off. If the switch is a 1-pole (Hot only), then the Neutral wire of your tool is still connected to the electrical system. In either case, lightning surges or short circuits can still reach your tool, even if the switch is off.
You didn't say what type of surge protector, but I presume it's either a power strip or a single outlet that plugs into a wall socket. In either case, the switch might disconnect only the Hot wire or both the Hot and Neutral wires (depending on the particular model).
In either case, the ground wire from your tool is still connected to the electrical system when you turn the switch off. If the switch is a 1-pole (Hot only), then the Neutral wire of your tool is still connected to the electrical system. In either case, lightning surges or short circuits can still reach your tool, even if the switch is off.
jttheclockman
Member
The simple answer was touched upon by above answers. This goes for any electronic item anywhere in the house. If unplugged electricity can not touch such item. But there are different types of surge protectors or whole house surge arrestors. Rating of them and also not overloading them play a part but they are designed for certain power surges. When talking lightning strikes they can bypass any surge protector. Thus why people in prone areas always use whole house surge arrestors.
Can I ask what tool or tools you using that have electronics that you are worried about. I know all these computer operated printers and CNC machines are very vulnerable and should be treated with highend surge protection. Any tools that have electronic speed control and things like that are rarely a concern and if you get a surge to take those tools out you have larger problems. People do not realize todays lights with electronic ballasts and electronic dimmers and led light bulbs are also surge susceptible. Now people are into battery operated vehicles and charging stations at home and they too can be suspect. That is why more and more homes are having surge and lightning protection added. Just saying.
Can I ask what tool or tools you using that have electronics that you are worried about. I know all these computer operated printers and CNC machines are very vulnerable and should be treated with highend surge protection. Any tools that have electronic speed control and things like that are rarely a concern and if you get a surge to take those tools out you have larger problems. People do not realize todays lights with electronic ballasts and electronic dimmers and led light bulbs are also surge susceptible. Now people are into battery operated vehicles and charging stations at home and they too can be suspect. That is why more and more homes are having surge and lightning protection added. Just saying.
John, I've just always heard it's best to unplug things when not in use. So I've always just unplugged all my tools. Table and bandsaw, lathes, drill press etc. Are you saying I'll be fine leaving it all plugged in? I guess there's no real reason to leave them plugged in, just curious.
jttheclockman
Member
Ken let me ask you do you go around unplugging all the lamps and fridge and any other thing in your house that is not being used?? Especially TVs or computers?? They are the most vulnerable for lightning strikes and stray power surges.
I have a shop full of tools and everything is plugged in. There are a few tools that are plugged into a power strip and I shut that off all the time. There is a drop light on it so I know if I forgot to hit the switch on it but that is it. My scrollsaws are plugged into another power strip that has the mag lights on it too. Again hit the switch on the strip and it is fine. Have to say the unplugging is a little OCD and over kill. If it lets you sleep better at nights go for it. Unless your tools are abused and chords are ragged of having problems with a switch on a tool then it is wise to replace or at least unplug but i would replace for personal safety. No reason to unplug. If you are really paranoid about it, have your shop tied to a contactor so that on the way out, hit a button and all power to the shop is off. I was suppose to do that when I moved into my house over 35 years ago, Have no idea what I did with contactor. My shop is wired to a sub panel so would be very easy for me to do. Good luck.Like I said probably a stupid question.Ken let me ask you do you go around unplugging all the lamps and fridge and any other thing in your house that is not being used?? Especially TVs or computers?? They are the most vulnerable for lightning strikes and stray power surges.
jttheclockman
Member
There are no stupid questions especially when talking electric.
1080Wayne
Member
The rule in our farm shop , frequented by small children , is that everything gets unplugged when not in use . It gets followed by us grandparents , but less so by the parents . However , there are other ways to get hurt . Saw my nephews 6 yr old son start a screw into his hand with a cordless driver .
WriteON
Member
I was in a shop that had Baldor lathe switched off. It decided to begin to smoke. Same with a hair dryer... starting to smoke and get real hot while plugged in but power switch off. No substitute for pulling the plug
Woodchipper
Member
My father always said the only stupid question was the one not asked. I don't unplug my power tools. They are on a circuit breaker as TVA is notorious for power surges. As for grandkids, ours don't go downstairs for any reason unless we go with them.
jttheclockman
Member
This is true but let me warn you of another danger you maybe creating. It can get obsessive and if you continue to pull on a chord you are now possibly creating a short in the wiring or are loosening contacts on outlet to the point of arcing when tool is plugged in. If that becomes the case now the wire can get so hot it can break down and cause a fire. When pulling an item out make sure you pull by the cap and not just tug on wire. I have seen this scenario also. Again if something has a problem do not overlook it and fix right away.
I do not want to turn this into a what if thread but again no question is a dumb question and we need to be more alert and aware of what we do in our houses and what is plugged in or not. But another problem that will continue to increase is the use of Lithium-ion batteries which are in many products we use such as Ipads, computers, phones and now battery operated power tools. Of course everyone has heard or read of the fires caused by these EBikes and their charging stations. Well this case scenerio can easily happen in such other devices. landfills have a huge problem when people just toss these batteries. You need to dispose of properly and all home centers have means of doing this along with your central recycling place. Beware of charging these items such as tools. You can feel how hot a battery gets when being charged in the charging station. I would avoid these off brand and no name battery replacements when replacing tool batteries. Batteries need to pass certain tests as well as electrical appliances. Does not mean no failures but a step to ensure safety. Just like using a qualified electrician when doing electrical work is. My biggest fear these days is the introduction to battery operated vehicles. Having a car sitting in a garage being charged on battery technology that is still evolving. Be careful. I am just putting it out there because unplugging tools is not the only thing that can go wrong when it comes to powering items.
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monophoto
Member
When we were first married, my wife and I had a number of 'discussions' on this subject - she grew up in a household with her grandparents (born in the 19th century and who were afraid of electricity), so she was taught that electrical appliances are dangerous and should be unplugged when not in use. I grew up in a household where my dad was an electrician, so I was taught that if stuff is well made and properly installed, using the switch on the appliance was just as effective as unplugging it, and was better in the sense that you didn't have to crawl all over to find where it was plugged into an outlet.
The Brits have a slightly different take on the subject - in their system, every receptacle has a built-in switch so that it is possible to actually turn off power at the outlet in addition to using a switch on the appliance, if there is one. That's from the folks who drive on the wrong side of the street and prefer warm beer.☺
I have several thoughts about this subject:
1. Plugs on power cords are fine for the application they are designed for, but they are often fragile and can be damaged if they are left unplugged. And a damaged plug is itself a safety issue.
2. If the appliance is properly designed and well made, the switch is perfectly adequate for turning it on and off, and there is no added benefit from unplugging the appliance unless it has to be moved or worked on. But when I say 'properly designed', I mean that the switch is adequately rated for the appliance and robust enough to withstand many more operations than it is likely to experience in the lifetime of the appliance, the plug is polarized so that there is no ambiguity about which wire is the hot wire, and which is the neutral, the internal wiring is done right (specifically, so that the switch is in the hot leg), and with a power cord that is long enough to reach an outlet without the need for an extension cord. Even better, I prefer that appliances be designed to have a grounding (three pin) plug so that metal components are properly grounded. And I would be willing to pay a little more to get appliances designed this way - but too many appliance manufacturers still opt to take the cheap way out.
3. I don't see a need for the British arrangement of incorporating a switch into every outlet. But I believe that every appliance should have a switch. I really don't like the idea of appliances that can only be deenergized by unplugging them (I really get nervous about WiFi routers, cable TV boxes and similar devices that don't have switches).
4. An appliance cord left lying on the floor and not plugged into the wall is a non-electrical safety hazard - think about how you would respond if you get tangled up in the cord, or step on an idle plug. My wife fell after stumbling over a table leg - and broke her hip. It could just as easily have been an unplugged appliance cord.
5. Houses (and shops) need to be built with enough receptacles to allow appliances to be plugged in without running excessively long cords. When we built our house, I probably went overboard on receptacles (the electrician was happy with the extra work, but the real estate person thought I was crazy), but today we rarely need extension cords.
6. There are scenarios in which appliances that are plugged in but turned off can be damaged by electrical surges, but those situations are very rare and don't constitute enough of a risk to justify the hassle of having to plug in an appliance every time it is used, and then unplug it afterward. And once again, if both the electrical infrastructure and the appliance design are properly designed and installed, those situations aren't going to happen.
The Brits have a slightly different take on the subject - in their system, every receptacle has a built-in switch so that it is possible to actually turn off power at the outlet in addition to using a switch on the appliance, if there is one. That's from the folks who drive on the wrong side of the street and prefer warm beer.☺
I have several thoughts about this subject:
1. Plugs on power cords are fine for the application they are designed for, but they are often fragile and can be damaged if they are left unplugged. And a damaged plug is itself a safety issue.
2. If the appliance is properly designed and well made, the switch is perfectly adequate for turning it on and off, and there is no added benefit from unplugging the appliance unless it has to be moved or worked on. But when I say 'properly designed', I mean that the switch is adequately rated for the appliance and robust enough to withstand many more operations than it is likely to experience in the lifetime of the appliance, the plug is polarized so that there is no ambiguity about which wire is the hot wire, and which is the neutral, the internal wiring is done right (specifically, so that the switch is in the hot leg), and with a power cord that is long enough to reach an outlet without the need for an extension cord. Even better, I prefer that appliances be designed to have a grounding (three pin) plug so that metal components are properly grounded. And I would be willing to pay a little more to get appliances designed this way - but too many appliance manufacturers still opt to take the cheap way out.
3. I don't see a need for the British arrangement of incorporating a switch into every outlet. But I believe that every appliance should have a switch. I really don't like the idea of appliances that can only be deenergized by unplugging them (I really get nervous about WiFi routers, cable TV boxes and similar devices that don't have switches).
4. An appliance cord left lying on the floor and not plugged into the wall is a non-electrical safety hazard - think about how you would respond if you get tangled up in the cord, or step on an idle plug. My wife fell after stumbling over a table leg - and broke her hip. It could just as easily have been an unplugged appliance cord.
5. Houses (and shops) need to be built with enough receptacles to allow appliances to be plugged in without running excessively long cords. When we built our house, I probably went overboard on receptacles (the electrician was happy with the extra work, but the real estate person thought I was crazy), but today we rarely need extension cords.
6. There are scenarios in which appliances that are plugged in but turned off can be damaged by electrical surges, but those situations are very rare and don't constitute enough of a risk to justify the hassle of having to plug in an appliance every time it is used, and then unplug it afterward. And once again, if both the electrical infrastructure and the appliance design are properly designed and installed, those situations aren't going to happen.
WriteON
Member
As a kid I yanked a wire out of a socket by the wire not the plug. It stretched, shorted and did small light show. It was lifetime learning experience. Scared the soup out of me.
I was at someone's house... the cord looks like dental floss from being using the cored itself to remove the plug. It's coming.
They make whole-home surge protectors that are designed to protect your appliances, etc - talk to your electrician!
Always assumed a plugged-in device is live - that will help keep you alive. Don't take apart anything that has capacitors, as they can hold a charge long after a device is unplugged.
Always consult experts who are paid to know what they know - aka electricians. There is a very good reason why electrical work needs to be inspected and "weekend warrior" work is forbidden - unsafe work can kill, and/or cause fires.
Always assumed a plugged-in device is live - that will help keep you alive. Don't take apart anything that has capacitors, as they can hold a charge long after a device is unplugged.
Always consult experts who are paid to know what they know - aka electricians. There is a very good reason why electrical work needs to be inspected and "weekend warrior" work is forbidden - unsafe work can kill, and/or cause fires.
jttheclockman
Member
All well said. Will add one other little annoyance I see many times is that appliance chords weather a lamp, TV or whatever laying on the floor and furniture resting on it. Oh does that bother the heck out of me when I see it and usually say something. I see it in offices I have worked on and just the other day I saw it in church. There is a section where they have electric candles as opposed to ones you light with fire. A baptismal urn was resting on the chord feeding the electric candles. Had one of the ushers after mass help me move that chord. That Urn was all metal and had sharp edges on the bottom.
pmoy
Member
SteveG
Member
This is where 'Remove the battery pack' gets added in to 'Unplug the power tool', when working with power tools and other potentially dangerous electric powered items. I have startled myself a few times when changing a drill bit on a battery powered drill. All the more important when young ones are potentially at risk.
gpguzy
Member
That was certainly a wealth of information triggered by a single question! It's lovely to have access to all the knowledge available in this group. I've done a small amount of electrical work in the past, but I think it's best to leave it to the pros.
TellicoTurning
Member
I'm sure that I've told this story before...
when I was in the Navy station at the Naval Station Guam, one duty one night we had a reperf (re-perpetrator) go out... they're sued to punch the code holes in teletype tape.... I grabbed a spare, pulled the old reperf and stuck the new in place... problem is I didn't turn off power, and I sat the new reperf in slightly crooked.... somebody hit me in the elbows with a baseball bat, knocked me about 6 feet backwards onto the supervisor's desk, cleared the desktop of all it's contents and blew every circuit in the radio room. The fuse box was in a cage with the transmitters to which I didn't have a key... called the chief at about 3 am and told him what happened... he said okay, see you tomorrow and rolled over and went back to sleep..... we sat in the dark radio room until he came on duty at 0800... my arms hurt for a week... lucky that I didn't get killed, there's 300 volts going though those things, don't know what the amps are but definitely enough to kill you.... there was a 1 inch hold blown in the base of the reperf where I touched it.
I learned a very very healthy respect for electricity that night.
when I was in the Navy station at the Naval Station Guam, one duty one night we had a reperf (re-perpetrator) go out... they're sued to punch the code holes in teletype tape.... I grabbed a spare, pulled the old reperf and stuck the new in place... problem is I didn't turn off power, and I sat the new reperf in slightly crooked.... somebody hit me in the elbows with a baseball bat, knocked me about 6 feet backwards onto the supervisor's desk, cleared the desktop of all it's contents and blew every circuit in the radio room. The fuse box was in a cage with the transmitters to which I didn't have a key... called the chief at about 3 am and told him what happened... he said okay, see you tomorrow and rolled over and went back to sleep..... we sat in the dark radio room until he came on duty at 0800... my arms hurt for a week... lucky that I didn't get killed, there's 300 volts going though those things, don't know what the amps are but definitely enough to kill you.... there was a 1 inch hold blown in the base of the reperf where I touched it.
I learned a very very healthy respect for electricity that night.
SteveG
Member
WoW! You were this close (Holding thumb and index finger very close together) to never learning the joy of turning pens! Glad your "cost of learning" was not too high.
sbwertz
Member
Here in Phoenix, we get a lot of power surges...not so much now as a few years ago....but I have EVERYTHING electronic on surge protectors.
I have a subpanel in my garage, just for my workshop. If I feel the need, I just flip the whole panel off, disconnecting the entire workshop. Since all power lines around here went underground years ago, I don't have so much concern about surges from lightning. We've never had a problem with that, in the 15 years I've lived in this house. I suspect if you have above ground/overhead power lines, though, its probably a much bigger concern.