Easy(er) Gloss Finish Needed (Rant! sorta)

[LEGB]

First of all, yes, I am a newbie. Okay, and yes I mainly use Crystal Coat and/or Liquor finish on my pens thus far. I love the glass finishes that I see in many of your pictures and would like to duplicate them, but all the articles I read involve multiple steps, sand, application, re-sand, over and over. I have seen a lot of CA/BLO finish articles, but am a little skeptical. To me, using glue as a finish just sounds strange. I can't help but think that over the years someone has not perfected a process or product that will give a pen the quality and durability due to these beautiful works of art.

Enough of the rant and wining, please do not skin me alive. I know that much time needs to be spent on a great, respectable presentation finish, I just think that in 2007 there surly is a product that will give a very decent and lasting gloss finish.

Okay, let the roasting begin on the newbie...

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Well, you might want to use a finish made for pens, not the end of the day! [}]

OK, seriously though... Anything worth doing, is worth doing right. Fast and easy is not always the best way. I use straight CA applied with a strip of derlin. I apply three coats and let it dry over night. If it did not burn thru, I apply 3 more coats and dry over night. Now it's ready to be wet sanded with 400 to remove 80% of imperfections followed by spot hand sanding for the rest. I then wet sand thru the first five MM followed by a polishing glaze.

I have tried the BLO/CA and I have not been able to achieve the build that I want. I seem to achieve a nice satin, but never a high gloss look and from what I have seen, lets face it, the buyers wand a "dipped in glass" pen.

I have used lacquer for a long time, but it does not hold up as good as the CA. That said, a 1/4" threaded rod on a handle and a can of Deft lacquer will achieve a great finish, but it's best to let it sit for a week. Not a big deal if you don't mind not putting it togather "today" I don't mind the wait, heck some times I will have a pen "in the works" for weeks!

 

[LEGB]

Firefyter-emt, can you suggest a finish made for pens? I am willing to give anything a try!

 

[Firefyter-emt]

LOL... Yea, I just had to grab that "punch line" before someone beat me to it! Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you want.

 

[LanceD]

Just make pens out of acrylics and polyester resin. No finish needed. Just buff to a high gloss.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Originally posted by LEGB
<br />First of all, yes, I am a newbie. Okay, and yes I mainly use Crystal Coat and/or Liquor finish on my pens thus far.

There is your problem. I would never get a good finish using liquor. I would drink more than I applied.[)]

As for CA don't knock it until you try it with success. Figure about 10 pens for a learning curve if you stick with it and expand on what you learn with each pen.

Mike & Linda

 

[LEGB]

Sorry Firefyter, only saw the "punch"... ouch! Seriously, thanks for the advice and I will try it this weekend and let you know how it goes.

 

[its_virgil]

First of all, what liquor is best for pens?[] Seems a shame to waste it on a pen. Really, I know you meant lacquer...at least I think you did.

Second of all, CA glue is basically a plastic, so using CA as a finish basically puts a layer or multiple layers of a plastic film over the wood. CA should not take long to do. I get a great finish...4 or 5 coats...and I'm finished in 10 minutes or less. Lacquer takes a week or longer to fully cure so it can be buffed out to a great shine.

Third of all, you want a lasting gloss finish. My advice to you would to first ditch the Crystal coat, mix some liquor with coca cola and practice using CA, enduro, or lacquer to get that shine you want. Or, maybe plexiglass/acetone that may be the finish of 2007 that you are wishing for.

Good luck and ...
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by LEGB
<br />First of all, yes, I am a newbie. Okay, and yes I mainly use Crystal Coat and/or Liquor finish on my pens thus far. I love the glass finishes that I see in many of your pictures and would like to duplicate them, but all the articles I read involve multiple steps, sand, application, re-sand, over and over. I have seen a lot of CA/BLO finish articles, but am a little skeptical. To me, using glue as a finish just sounds strange. I can't help but think that over the years someone has not perfected a process or product that will give a pen the quality and durability due to these beautiful works of art.

Enough of the rant and wining, please do not skin me alive. I know that much time needs to be spent on a great, respectable presentation finish, I just think that in 2007 there surly is a product that will give a very decent and lasting gloss finish.

Okay, let the roasting begin on the newbie...

 

[LEGB]

Damn the spell checker![!]

 

[LostintheWoods]

I can personally attest to the fact that, more often than not, my pens look far better after liberal application of Wild Turkey.

Oh, wait......you meant, put it on the PEN??!??!?!!!? no way!!!!

 

[GaryMGg]

I like my Knob Creek neat, but when I need a really, really fine finish, I grab the Bookers. []

 

[stevers]

You guys are killing this poor guy.

Michael, don't let em get to ya. We all do it.

Anyway, I was scared to death of CA. But I tried it and wont go back to friction finishes. Took me a half dozen pens to start getting good and now it's on all of my wood and some of my PR work.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />I like my Knob Creek neat, but when I need a really, really fine finish, I grab the Bookers. []

Good choice, both for bourbon, I like scotch more. But a warning - too much liquor and turning or even finishing can becomes dangerous....

 

[leehljp]

What is it about CA as a finish that you don't understand? Mine are not nearly as good as others, but it does do a great job. You are the second person in a couple of weeks that has had difficulty in accepting reality about using CA as a finish.

The Difficulties in finishing pens for long lasting use are plenty. Lacquer, poly urethane, shellac, enamels, oils including tung oils are super finishes for wood in furniture. But those finishes are not meant to be handled in situations such oils from the hand, sweat and heat from the chest pocket, _multiple_ times a day. Many table finishes ruin after putting a "sweating" glass of cold water on it and leaving it for a while. Caustic sweat and hand oils are worse than the water. For this reason, many people do not realize that pens are in a totally different environment than furniture and require different finishes from furniture.

Since pen making as a hobby is relatively new on the horizon for the general public, it has not drawn the attention for new finishes that you might expect. It has been the pen turners themselves that has done this - with CA, CA/BLO, acrylic/acetone, and good quality lacquer. Believe me, the other finishes that you probably think would be better have been tried, and tried, and tried and they don't work as well as CA, Acrylic, or lacquer. The environment of pens are totally different.

AS far as looks go - check out the duck calls below that have a CA finish - but not nearly as good as many others do here. But the CA is far more waterproof than any of the other furniture finishes listed above.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Hank,
Great post, you can not explain it any better than that.

 

[txbob]

Hank,
Well said, and beautiful duck calls.
txbob

 

[cdcarter]

One of the great things about IAP is that you pick up ideas you wouldn't have thought of yourself.

There's no free lunch. A good, LASTING finish takes time. Friction polish is easiest, and it can give a gorgeous shine, but it won't last, and you'll end up with a dull pen or a dissatisfied customer.

The CA and CA/BLO finishes are the only long-lasting ones that don't require waiting on something to dry. I think that's why they're so popular here. But as I've grown more patient, I'm using more lacquer (aka booze) as well.

In fact, I went through a lot of liquor working out the CA thing.[]

 

[alamocdc]

Personally, I find that liqour tends to dry a bit sticky b/c of the suger content, but if it works for you... sorry, couldn't help myself.

Yes, a CA finish can take some time, and it does require some steps. Russ Fairfield recently posted a video showing his method and it is the simplest I've seen so far. I've tried it and it's easy to do. Many swear by the plexi finish, but I haven't tried it yet. I happen to like the results I get from lacquer, so that's what I use more often than not. But it takes time too. Not necessarily to apply, but you have to let it fully cure before you buff it out.

So, if you want a FAST finish, use friction polish, but be aware of the fact that it will not be durable. If you want durable, be prepared... and willing... to spend the time necessary to accomplish it.[]

 

[MDWine]

I think you would be hard pressed to find a group of woodworkers more dedicated to a finish than penturners. If there is a 'fast/easy/LONG LASTING' finish out there, we're going to find it.

Try the CA, it's not so bad. I like lacquer best, but it takes dedication and patience. Enduro is a very DURABLE finish, and is easy to apply. IMHO, Enduro doesn't give me the deep-lustre that I'm looking for. (Neither does CA!)

Keep trying, keep watching the site, and keep asking questions! You'll find the finish that is right for YOU!

 

[Brewmeister35]

While I'm still a rookie with CA, I can say that the first pens I made with friction polish are still shiny after rolling around in the bottom of someone's purse. That was HUT Crystal Coat believe it or not so not even what is believed as one of the better friction polishes. I will continue to play with CA as a finish but my daily carry looks pretty rough. It has a few coats of thin over sanding sealer with 3 coats medium over top. Granted, I don't keep my pen in a leather pouch or set it in a nice pen holder. I use it, set it on my bench, carry it with a handful of other things at times. It has dents, scratches, and gouges that are only in the CA and not into the wood. I will keep playing with CA but I think I'm about to try enduro as a more solid finish. Just my opinion.

 

[VirgilJ]

When you look at a pen the first thing you see is the finish. The grain of the wood, the shape, and even the fittings are all secondary.That's why pen turners spend what seems like an extrodinary amount of time discussing and working on the finish they put on their pens.Since your new to pen turning the most important thing you can learn from this dicussion is to never underestimate how important the finish truely is.

I don't think anyone can pick a finish for you. You need to try each of the most popular ones and decide for yourself which one floats your boat. I've done exactly that and find I prefer laquer. That's not to say that I haven't turned some beautiful pens with a CA or Enduro finish. I have, but laquer just seeems to be a little bit more suited to my taste.

Whatever finishing technique you choose don't look at finishing as the pain in the butt last step before you assemble your pen. Instead view it as the oppertunity to create a truely beautiful work of art rather than a so-so piece of round wood.

 

[GaryMGg]

Originally posted by VirgilJ
Whatever finishing technique you choose don't look at finishing as the pain in the butt last step before you assemble your pen. Instead view it as the oppertunity to create a truely beautiful work of art rather than a so-so piece of round wood.

I think this really says a lot. Personally, I find that turning the pen is usually the quickest part of the process. Finishing usually the longest for me as I want a pen that glistens when you look at it.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Hank,
I haven't tried the CA/BLO finish on a pen yet.. actually haven't been turning pens lately... I did use CA/BLO on my game calls and while I didn't get your shine, I was pleasantly surprised with results.. with a little more practice... will definitely use the finish on future pens.

<br />

 

[leehljp]

Chuck,
That is a nice looking call! Beautiful wood and clean design. I really like that!

On VirgilJ's post - I whole heartedly agree. Finish is what makes something presentable, attractive and usable.

 

[workinforwood]

CA is surely a beautiful and long lasting finish, but if your like myself, it can have it's moments of upsets...mainly contamination causing cloudiness. I switched over to the system 3, which seems to be far easier to work with. It's still the same thing, a plastic coating, and has the same durability, but easier to apply. I find one coat is plenty. CA is pretty good and cure in 24 hrs...system 3 you are better to let sit for 3 days. what is it? for newbies of course..it is a 2 part epoxy. Yep, more glue, just a different form of the same thing, you mix it up and apply it...it goes on thicker, feels like one coat is as thick as 3 or 4 CA coats. Regardless what you want, patience is the key. If you want a pen now, use an acrylic. Get an extra set of bushings or make your wood pens from different kits than your acrylics. Make your wood pen, apply finish, let sit a bit for finish to set, then remove from mandrel, or start a new mandrel and start making acrylics in the meantime so the plastic/glue finish has lots of time to dry. The longer you wait, the more the glue hardens, the less chance for difficulties when you sand and polish it. CA isn't even fully cured for about a week. System 3 I think is a couple weeks or more before it is absolutely done hardening. And, like everyone else says, laquer should have a full week to cure, and even then it isn't completely cured.

 

[thewishman]

I told the penturners group at my local AAW club that my finish takes about 5 minutes to apply and sand out. A couple of guys said "Man, I would NEVER take that long to put on a finish!"

Looking at their work, I can see that their results match their time commitment.[]

Chris

 

[Daddy1]

I recently have had great success with c a finish. I have tried wax, friction polish, laquer and nothing I have tried comes out like ca. I have found that although it may take 5-10 minutes the investment is worth it. I can tell right away the pens I have used ca on vs other finishes.

I also have to agree that if this group hasn't found an easier way it ain't out there. This group is very very thorough.

 

[BigguyZ]

does buffing really provide a better finish than sanding with mm? I haven't had any issues with MM and then 3M rubbing compound, but I'd be open to exploring better options.

 

[Texatdurango]

Actually, LEGB has a point in his rant. Why should we, the end users, have to rely on a GLUE, with all it's inherant problems, to provide a nice durable finish for our pens?

Just think, if someone hadn't stumbled onto using CA as a finish, we would all still be fighting the durability and handling problems with lacquer, Enduro and friction polishes!

What we need is someone to invent "Dipping CA", where you just open a jar, dip the blank in, hang up to dry and an hour later have that glass like finish we all want without micro mesh or buffing. Heck, they have it now for countertops! Just mix two parts together, pour on a table and voila... you're done, no sanding or polishing!

I think they should name it "Countertops for pens"![]

 

[cdcarter]

I think some of the epoxies have that potential for those who are willing to ruin enough blanks figuring it out. I look forward to your tutorial on the subject. []

 

[workinforwood]

Has anyone tried dipping in 50 coat..the stuff for countertops? And how about automotive clear coat? That stuff sure seems pretty tough.

 

[wdcav1952]

I would say that the vast majority of the GOOD finishes we use were not developed for pens. Thanks to the efforts of many inventive people, we have some new uses for materials.

I would suggest to those who wonder if someone has tried a different finish that they do so and post the results so lazy people like me can reap the benefits of their research. [][]

 

[gerryr]

William,
I just developed a fabulous new finish, equal parts baking soda, corn syrup and molasses. Give it a try, you'll love it![}][]

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />William,
I just developed a fabulous new finish, equal parts baking soda, corn syrup and molasses. Give it a try, you'll love it![}][]

Just curious, Gerry, where do you shove that finish????? [:0][}][]

 

[wdcav1952]

I forgot, at present I am working on a finish that uses juniper berries and quinine water with CO2 added. [^]

 

[RussFairfield]

What's the big deal about multiple use products. The plastic we know as CA isn't the only one. Model Airplane Glue and Duco Cement are nothing more than a thick lacquer. The brown stuff that seals the vacuum in the glass light bulb and holds it in the metal base is shellac. PVA glue (Elmer's White) has been used for years as a clear coat over watercolor and charcoal flat work, and a primer under other finishes on veneers. The epoxies in paint and glue are the same thing. The same polyurethane resins are used in both glues and finishes. Most of the commercial oil finishes use Soybean Oil, and that is used for a lot of things besides a finish. And the list goes on..... Glues and finishes have always been closely related if not the same thing. Often the thinners and solvents are the only difference.

If there is any objection to using the same product as both a glue and a finish, there is nothing left but bare wood and wax.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I'll add one more Russ. Commercial printing inks are made from BLO, Varnishes, Mineral Spirits and dyers (with some pigment added in for color) - Printing Inks are very similar to Danish Oil