Dust Mask ??

[jrista]

I believe you 110% Jon!

Before I got back into woodworking the only respiratory/allergy issues I suffered was the annual sage brush pollen.

When I got back into woodworking I didn't notice anything right away, but over time began having some minor issues. Then one night I had issues with labored breathing. I had done CA finish, polishing and Renaissance Wax with no protection. An inhaler (Albuterol) helped, but time is what it really took (days).

Since then I have realized that I absolutely am impacted by CA fumes and the fumes from the Microcrystalline waxes like Renaissance Wax.

I am no longer willing to do anything with CA finishing and the subsequent polishing and waxing without my 3M half face respirator with the pink/yellow N100/VOC canisters. The only thing I do in my shop without it is wet sanding, and then only if I haven't been generating dust before. I simply isn't worth the short term misery or the long term impact.

As noted in a previous post on mine in this thread, I run an air cleaner with a 1 micron bag filter and my dust collector with a MERV 15 canister on it at all times.

Before I retired, I was in the building environments business and spent 35 years in the construction of new and renovation of existing buildings and can guarantee you that air quality is no hoax.

I have worked around labs, hospitals, clean rooms and Bio Safety Labs up to and including BLS3, BSL3+, BSL3AG, and BSL4 (only a few in the world).

PPE is no joke. It saves lives. PERIOD. Certain things were (and still are) zero tolerance for us, that means you get caught working without the proper PPE, you are terminated immediately. It doesn't matter if you didn't get hurt, you are out.

Anyone in my shop wears all of the proper PPE or they don't get to work in my shop. When I teach people to do things in the shop, I spend a significant time on shop, tool, and material safety.

You want to gamble on your safety and heath, that is your business, and outside of my own shop, I can't stop you, but natural selection will eventually resolve the issue.

I am honestly very sorry to hear your story, and that you are affected by CA. I wouldn't wish what I've experienced on anyone, not a soul, even my enemy. It is a MISERABLE existence, to suffer from that kind of thing day in and day out.

I've been rather dismayed by all the "CA is safe!" proclamations all over the place. Just about anywhere you find information about CA, it is always proclaimed its safe. However, when I had my issues, and since, I've spent a lot of time researching the chemistry of CA curing and what's actually going on. The fumes, in particular usually contain a high degree of Formaldehyde. This is primarily what burns your eyes, if you get them exposed to the fumes, and is labeled a notable carcinogen by the US NTP. Safe? My god. There are also proclamations about CA only negatively affecting "about 5% of the population", however anecdotally, nearly everyone I've met who uses CA, has problems when they use it (and I spend a fair amount of time at the local hobby shops and wood working stores where people use CA glues all the time). The truly insane thing is, most of them STILL don't seem interested on wearing a respirator...they seem content to suffer the consequences of exposure, which is always heavy breathing issues and stinging eyes. Color me baffled, but, to each their own.

PPE is no joke. Its not just about wood dust, either. We as woodworkers work with all manner of other kinds of noxious and toxic chemicals as well. Even if you believe wood dust has no health impacts (demonstrably false!!), there are still plenty of other things floating around a woodshop that are carcinogenic or otherwise dangerous. Its just good sense, to protect yourself.

The notion that the statistics don't measure up, is also fallacious in a lot of ways. What are the statistics based on? So many things that we supposedly have had reliable statistics for for decades, are being proven utterly incorrect and wrong in more recent years. Consider the EPA allowances for toxins, poisons, and carcinogens in water supplies. The "statistics" were supposedly extremely solid, however more recent studies have shown just how insane the allowable levels are for CHILDREN, and in many cases also for adults. The allowable toxicity levels in water supplies are nuts when you account for the tolerance of children, and this has been known for years, but...nothing is done, and jokes are made about it all.

 

[d_bondi]

I am honestly very sorry to hear your story, and that you are affected by CA. I wouldn't wish what I've experienced on anyone, not a soul, even my enemy. It is a MISERABLE existence, to suffer from that kind of thing day in and day out.

I've been rather dismayed by all the "CA is safe!" proclamations all over the place. Just about anywhere you find information about CA, it is always proclaimed its safe. However, when I had my issues, and since, I've spent a lot of time researching the chemistry of CA curing and what's actually going on. The fumes, in particular usually contain a high degree of Formaldehyde. This is primarily what burns your eyes, if you get them exposed to the fumes, and is labeled a notable carcinogen by the US NTP. Safe? My god. There are also proclamations about CA only negatively affecting "about 5% of the population", however anecdotally, nearly everyone I've met who uses CA, has problems when they use it (and I spend a fair amount of time at the local hobby shops and wood working stores where people use CA glues all the time). The truly insane thing is, most of them STILL don't seem interested on wearing a respirator...they seem content to suffer the consequences of exposure, which is always heavy breathing issues and stinging eyes. Color me baffled, but, to each their own.

PPE is no joke. Its not just about wood dust, either. We as woodworkers work with all manner of other kinds of noxious and toxic chemicals as well. Even if you believe wood dust has no health impacts (demonstrably false!!), there are still plenty of other things floating around a woodshop that are carcinogenic or otherwise dangerous. Its just good sense, to protect yourself.

The notion that the statistics don't measure up, is also fallacious in a lot of ways. What are the statistics based on? So many things that we supposedly have had reliable statistics for for decades, are being proven utterly incorrect and wrong in more recent years. Consider the EPA allowances for toxins, poisons, and carcinogens in water supplies. The "statistics" were supposedly extremely solid, however more recent studies have shown just how insane the allowable levels are for CHILDREN, and in many cases also for adults. The allowable toxicity levels in water supplies are nuts when you account for the tolerance of children, and this has been known for years, but...nothing is done, and jokes are made about it all.

Thanks Jon. I have learned my lesson, and to the best of my knowledge have no lasting effects of my ignorance.

The problem with data is expressed well in this quote:

"If you torture data long enough, will confess to anything" ~Ronald H. Coase

There is that, and then there is the whole issue of the foundational basis of any given study and associated data set. Assumptions are always made, and not always good ones. Also, just because someone reads the studies and understands data and statistical analysis doesn't mean that they are qualified to actually comprehend the study and its results. If you do not thoroughly understand the underlying scientific/medical concepts, you don't have the knowledge to effectively challenge the premise, method, and results.

 

[Woodchipper]

For a respirator, I would have to try one before buying. So Amazon and online are out. As mentioned earlier, mine doesn't fit properly. My glasses rest on the nose piece and raise my glasses where they are out of focus.

 

[jrista]

For a respirator, I would have to try one before buying. So Amazon and online are out. As mentioned earlier, mine doesn't fit properly. My glasses rest on the nose piece and raise my glasses where they are out of focus.

Which one do you have now?

FWIW, the local Lowes and Home Depot both seem to carry several of the 3M half face respirator masks. You might not be able to find the Pink & Mustard filters locally, but you could probably buy one (or more) of the masks themselves, try them out to see which one fits best, and return the rest?

 

[Woodchipper]

jrista, it's an AOSafety, marked Med; R5700. Got from my daughter when I started this madness called pen making.

 

[jrista]

For those who might be interested, here is a useful page about the potential risks of long-term inhaling of wood dust. I initially had a rather acute response, due to the specifics of what happened to me. In a more general sense, the dangers of wood dust are slow, over the long term, and cumulatively build up over generally much longer periods of time than just one year.

Dust Collection Research - Medical Risks

This site helps small shop workers understand the risks from fine dust exposure and how to effectively protect themselves and their families from airborne dust hazards. Fine dust is so extensively studied that researchers call it PM short for particle material. A Google search on PM Health Risks...

billpentz.com

It might take years, or a decade or so, for more severe effects to be SUFFERED... As Pentz says in the above page, its hard to notice them, hence why I'm skeptical of the notion that statistics don't indicate anything here. What statistics, arrived at by what process? How were the studies that lead to whatever statistics are being referenced run, and what biases did they have? Are there actually ANY statistics here?

I kind of think of it like faith. Its harmless to have faith that say God Created everything, outside of maybe being jeered at by those who won't believe. Buying a simple respirator and wearing it is kind of the same. Its rather harmless, even IF there is absolutely no statistically valid reason TO wear one, and its all just a bunch of hoo-ha drummed up to sell $20 masks and $30 filters. On the flip side, if there really IS a risk, it could in fact be quite harmful to NOT wear something to filter the air you breathe.

 

[jrista]

jrista, it's an AOSafety, marked Med; R5700. Got from my daughter when I started this madness called pen making.

That looks very similar to my 3M half face mask. Its not identical, and in fact, it appears as though it may have a better output port, which seems to be filtered, which I actually wish I had on mine. I only have the membrane and an open port, no filter, so if there is any dust right in front of my mask, I can suck it in sometimes.

Structurally, it looks very similar to the 3M I have, and most of them in the $15-30 price range. It may be that minor differences in the design help you with your glasses. I guess, thinking about it, my glasses get pushed up a little as well...however, ironically, that's kind of been a help lately... My vision has changed over the last couple of years, and I have to lift my glasses to look underneath the rim to see things in detail up close, as I'm no longer able to focus close enough when looking through my glasses. So, it hasn't bothered me...but it sounds like the same issue you may be facing with your current mask.

IT may still be worth trying out a few of the masks you can buy at the local hardware stores, and see if one just fits better.

 

[Woodchipper]

jrista, have Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace Hardware and Harbor Freight in town. Not sure where she got this one. Will see what I can find. I found a stash of N95 dust masks in the locker while looking for the respirator. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise! Surprise!"

 

[d_bondi]

For a respirator, I would have to try one before buying. So Amazon and online are out. As mentioned earlier, mine doesn't fit properly. My glasses rest on the nose piece and raise my glasses where they are out of focus.

Have you considered "Lathe Glasses"? If the issue is that the mask lifts the glasses so the bifocal portion is not positioned correctly, then a set of glasses made for working the lathe (just like computer glasses) might just do the trick. My computer glasses are my bifocal perspiration but for the whole lens.

I suspect that any half face respirator is going to mess a bit with where your glasses rest.

 

[Woodchipper]

The respirator affects both parts of the bifocals. Insurance wouldn't cover the glasses and not interested in buying glasses that would be rarely used.

 

[RichAldrich]

I turned a pen this morning and used a Basecamp mask with cheap visor.

I have 2 Wen air filtration systems a couple of feet above me in the rafters going along with the shop vac/Onieda cyclone separator sucking up debris at the lathe.

Glasses constantly fogged up. Do you all have that problem with the Trend system?

I had both trends and now the peak power cap. The fans blow air on the inside of the shield and does not fog glasses.

 

[jttheclockman]

I had both trends and now the peak power cap. The fans blow air on the inside of the shield and does not fog glasses.

Like I said I ordered the 3M half mask respirator but may also step up to the newer Trend because when my older one was working it did feel good to wear. I understand the newer ones are better balanced and maybe a little lighter.

 

[jrista]

Like I said I ordered the 3M half mask respirator but may also step up to the newer Trend because when my older one was working it did feel good to wear. I understand the newer ones are better balanced and maybe a little lighter.

The nice thing about the PAPRs is the constant fresh airflow. One thing I will say about wearing a half-face mask, is it takes effort to breathe. You have to suck air through the filter yourself, which requires effort. With a PAPR, the mask is doing that for you. I find it a lot easier to work for long periods of time with a PAPR vs. a standard respirator for this reason.

 

[d_bondi]

The nice thing about the PAPRs is the constant fresh airflow. One thing I will say about wearing a half-face mask, is it takes effort to breathe. You have to suck air through the filter yourself, which requires effort. With a PAPR, the mask is doing that for you. I find it a lot easier to work for long periods of time with a PAPR vs. a standard respirator for this reason.

Question Jon...

I started looking at the various PAPR options which seem to range from ~$500 (Trend) - $3,000 (3M Variflo) and what I note with the units that are self contained in the headgear, don't appear to be actual NIOSH rated filters and canisters. With the split units (Sundstrom/3M) some can do canisters that are particulate only and others can do canisters that do VOC.

Here is the question... if there are no VOC canisters providing protection from CA fumes, you are relying 100% on a good seal and positive air pressure. Does it really work reliably?

I like the idea of the Trend self contained unit, but I do like the safety that my 3M half face with VOC canisters provides from fumes, including CA.

 

[Darios]

With all due respect, a 3M 6500 half face respirator and a pair of P100/Filter60923 VOC canisters is $50 on amazon right now.
We are talking about less than most of us spend on a handful of kits/blanks.

And that's key for me... that cost / benefit analysis.

If for a relatively small amount of money and (let's face it) small inconvenience I can obtain a small yet statistically realized chance of reducing my chance of COPD, or whatever the wood-turning equivalent of silicosis or black lung or what-not is, that's a solid win.

There is a thread on here a couple of years old now about how someone can't turn anymore because his lungs were completely shot. Between that and having watched a biography of Leonard Nimoy and how his end of life quality was, well... my 3M mask and Jet AFS 1000 were an easy to justify purchase.
I'm not always successful, but I do at least try to make an effort to not be the third kind of person.... most days at least.

There are three kinds of men.
- The one that learns by reading.
- The few who learn by observation.
- The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
Will Rogers

 

[jrista]

Question Jon...

I started looking at the various PAPR options which seem to range from ~$500 (Trend) - $3,000 (3M Variflo) and what I note with the units that are self contained in the headgear, don't appear to be actual NIOSH rated filters and canisters. With the split units (Sundstrom/3M) some can do canisters that are particulate only and others can do canisters that do VOC.

Here is the question... if there are no VOC canisters providing protection from CA fumes, you are relying 100% on a good seal and positive air pressure. Does it really work reliably?

I like the idea of the Trend self contained unit, but I do like the safety that my 3M half face with VOC canisters provides from fumes, including CA.

I do know that the Sundstrom I have, supports particulate (purple) and organic vapor (yellow) cannisters. There are no specific filters for CA filtration with anything, as far as I know...I've always used the organic vapor filters. Which may not be explicitly designed for that purpose, but, they do seem to work. I don't know if they have any others, but, I've only used these two. Now, I wouldn't say that these are quite as good as the 3M with pink/mustard filters, at filtering CA fumes, which is why I usually use the 3M half face when doing CA stuff. I don't know if that is just a powered vs. unpowered factor, though...maybe the powered intake on the Sundstrom is more able to pull in fumes. At the same time, its also on the belt, and you can put that behind you, so that helps. Still, I think I tend to get little whiffs of CA fumes more with the Sundstrom than the 3M half-face... At least, anecdotally speaking. I haven't done anything scientific to verify that.

 

[d_bondi]

I do know that the Sundstrom I have, supports particulate (purple) and organic vapor (yellow) cannisters. There are no specific filters for CA filtration with anything, as far as I know...I've always used the organic vapor filters. Which may not be explicitly designed for that purpose, but, they do seem to work. I don't know if they have any others, but, I've only used these two. Now, I wouldn't say that these are quite as good as the 3M with pink/mustard filters, at filtering CA fumes, which is why I usually use the 3M half face when doing CA stuff. I don't know if that is just a powered vs. unpowered factor, though...maybe the powered intake on the Sundstrom is more able to pull in fumes. At the same time, its also on the belt, and you can put that behind you, so that helps. Still, I think I tend to get little whiffs of CA fumes more with the Sundstrom than the 3M half-face... At least, anecdotally speaking. I haven't done anything scientific to verify that.

That is helpful Jon, thank you!

Since I already have the 3M w/Pink/Mustard filters, maybe I don't worry about the top end 2 piece PAPR and seriously consider the one piece Trend unit. Wear that for turning, dry sanding, etc.. and the don the 3M for CA work and the Microcrystalline Renaissance wax that gives me fits.

 

[jttheclockman]

The nice thing about the PAPRs is the constant fresh airflow. One thing I will say about wearing a half-face mask, is it takes effort to breathe. You have to suck air through the filter yourself, which requires effort. With a PAPR, the mask is doing that for you. I find it a lot easier to work for long periods of time with a PAPR vs. a standard respirator for this reason.

This is why I may try both and see which I go with and may just switch back and forth. I am watching for a sale on the Trend right now. If anyone hears of one post here please.

 

[jrista]

This is why I may try both and see which I go with and may just switch back and forth. I am watching for a sale on the Trend right now. If anyone hears of one post here please.

You know, I thought I saw a Trend Micro sale recently...in an email... I think it was for Australia though... I don't know if that would be a viable option or not?