Drilling on the lathe..

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I do a lot of peppermills which I drill on the lathe... I currently use a Jet 1014 and all that drilling is hard on the tailstock spindle screw... I just pulled the last one I installed and the threads are being stripped by the e-clamp.. I looked up a new one on the Jet web site.. they are cheap enough, but the shipping is twice the price of the screw.. I need one so I'll bite the bullet and order,
but does anyone know of another source that may be cheaper... I'm pretty sure I'm going to replace them on a regular basis...
 
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Chuck:

Have you tried talking to someone about their excessive shipping charges? Several years ago, I needed a new point for my live center. It is a 95¢ item and weighs about a 1/2 ounce. They wanted to charge their standard shipping rate of $19.95!!! Ridiculous!!!

They finally came down to $9.95; but I thought that was still excessive so I waited until my next trip to Woodcraft and bought one for a buck and a half.
 
Chuck, if Woodcraft sells these, it looks like we'll be doing another Woodcraft group buy in March. It'll give you a chance to get the part at 30% off and you can stuff all that extra space in the flat rate envelope with other discounted loot.
 
The real news here is that Jet uses such a soft screw in the tailstock. IMHO, using your lathe to drill is not abusive to a good machine. The quality of the lathe is failing you. I suggest you look for another source for a replacement screw. See if you can find hardened/quality steel for the replacement. Or, even have one custom made. A polite, but strongly worded letter to Jet might be in order also.
 
Good point, Frank. I think the newer Jets come with 5 year warranties and the older ones with 2.

Chuck: Seems like you would have a warranty claim unless your Mini is 10 years old?? Other concern might be the tailstock spindle?? If the threads are buggered up on the leadscrew, I would be worried about the matching threads on the tailstock spindle as well. You might want to ask JET about both parts??




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It is pretty much like the screw on your bench vise. I may be able to find a link to the drawing in the Jet manual to give you a better idea; but the Jet web site is a little unreliable and somewhat difficult to navigate so I make no promises.




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I don't suppose anyone has a picture of this Tailstock screw?
Does anyone know what the thread is?
Is it a Metric thread?

I am just curious. This is something that could</u> be reproduced.

Could I ask how much they quoted? I hope that isn't too personal.
 
Randy,
Unfortunately, I think my Jet is about 7 years old... it belonged to my son before me.. What's happening is the E-clamp that acts as a stop on the screw is acting like a mill cutter... as I put pressure on the screw drilling the peppermills, the E-clamp in pressed against the threads and will eventually start to cut the threads... I've milled off about 1/2 inch of threads.. the Spindle itself seems to be of sufficiently hard steel that it's not affected.. and you are right about the navigation on Jet's site..
 
Chuck: How many pepper mills have you done..... 500..... 1000?? Or is it more like 25-50?? Just an intuitive feeling on my part; but I think that leadscrew should hold up to a few tens of pepper mills. If that is all you have done, I would be whispering in Jet's ear about a free replacement even though the lathe is out of warranty. If their lathe won't hold up to that kind of use, there is something wrong with the materials or the design!!



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Chuck: It's been a while since I've had the tailstock on my JET Mini apart and your post raised my curiosity so I have the spindle and leadscrew sitting on the table in front of me right now. I'd like to find out a little more about your problem. I'll put together an email for you tomorrow.

For those that asked about a picture of the leadscrew, I'll see if I can get a decent picture tomorrow, also.

As to the threading, it is a left-hand thread and measures about (but not exactly) M15x1.5. I don't have a metric thread gauge so I can't say whether it is a standard thread or a proprietary one. It does not seem to be close to any standard US threading.



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Thank you Randy! The left handed thread isn't a problem, but for me, my engine lathe isn't geared to cut metric threads. That is why I asked. I would try to reproduce it for him but I can't chase metric threads. Sorry Ozmandus, I tried.
 
Randy,
Here is a picture of the leadscrew out of my tail stock.. this is the first one I replaced, but the one I'm using now looks just like this..
200821533320_Feb14%20068.jpg


Close up of the problem.. you can see the E-clip has moved out of the groove and is cutting the threads..
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As for how many peppermills I've done... I don't know for sure, but would guess about 40 or more... I've sold all but about 3 or 4 and have just finished 3 new ones that I hope to sell tomorrow.

And I am going to take your suggestion and approach Jet about this problem... It does look like a design problem or at least a material quality problem.

I do put a lot of pressure on the screw using a 1 3/4 and a 1 9/16 inch forstner and I try to keep them sharp..
 
WOW!!! That's scary. I don't think you mentioned the fact that you were on your SECOND leadscrew. That means those things are wearing out after making only 20 peppermills. That just doesn't seem right to me. Sure sounds like a design defect in the lathe.

I've made a couple of peppermills and done the drilling on my lathe; but I may have to rethink that. Sure don't want to damage my tailstock.

There have been a few other folks here who have posted about making peppermills. I don't recall any discussion about how they drilled their blanks. Maybe they have bigger lathes, maybe they don't drill their blanks on their lathe. I'm going to search the old IAP threads and see if I can find some of those posts with the idea of contacting those guys to see if they are having problems.

Please let us know what your hear from JET. If they are going to recommend against drilling with Forstner bits we need to be able to pass the word so others won't run into the same problem.

Sorry you are having this problem; but glad it is out in the open so others can be aware of the potential problem.


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My first take was quality problem with materials used in the leadscrew. Second take, same. This should not happen. Although, it is possible Jet will come back and say that a lathe tailstock is not designed to withstand the kind of forces that large bore drilling involve. BTW, I used a Jet mini for several hours yesterday. Not the first time. I used one once for a pen turning demo. But, this time I was bowl turning at a friends shop. My impression is that this machine is simply not up to turning of larger items. Again, IMHO, it's use should be limited to pens and other very small items. It is now off my 'someday' list as a second lathe.
 
Originally posted by Rifleman1776

My first take was quality problem with materials used in the leadscrew. Second take, same. This should not happen. Although, it is possible Jet will come back and say that a lathe tailstock is not designed to withstand the kind of forces that large bore drilling involve. BTW, I used a Jet mini for several hours yesterday. Not the first time. I used one once for a pen turning demo. But, this time I was bowl turning at a friends shop. My impression is that this machine is simply not up to turning of larger items. Again, IMHO, it's use should be limited to pens and other very small items. It is now off my 'someday' list as a second lathe.



quote:
Originally posted by rherrell

I agree with Lee. Jet mini is not a bowl lathe. Sell 3 or 4 pens and get a Beall, you won't regret it. It always pays to buy a good tool ONCE!




Gee....I didn't know that. I'll have to tell the guys who did bowl turning demos with a Jet mini at my woodturing club meetings they can't do that. Do they have to put the wood back on now? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank
Mountain Home, Arkansas
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." from Animal Farm by George Orwell

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Edited by - Rifleman1776 on Oct 24 2007 09:21:07 AM



It only took 31/2 months but I'm glad you finally agree with me, Frank!:D
 
Rick Herrell said, "It only took 31/2 months but I'm glad you finally agree with me, Frank!"
Gee, Rick, I didn't know you cared. ;)

OK, I should have known it was coming. I'll qualify my remarks about the Jet mini not being a bowl turning lathe. I turned a bowl on one. That doesn't make it a bowl turning lathe. I had to use very light cuts and back off when the little, underpowered (for this use) machine stopped cold with moderate cuts. Slow and frustrating but a bowl was turned. However, if one is interested in bowl turning to the extent of more than just the occasional tiny pot-pot, get a full sized and full powered machine.
 
The Jet mini could use a little bigger motor... I think mine is 1/2 horse.. but I've done 95% of my turnings on the mini... bowls, peppermills, plus pens, game calls and what ever else I could think of to turn.. I've turned bowls up to about 8" diameter, but nothing really heavy.. it's still a pretty good machine.

I wrote an email to Jet about the problem I'm having.. got a note back today they are sending me a new spindle and quill .. should solve current problem.

Tonight I picked up a new bigger Jet 1442, so should solve future problems.

Frank, I was looking very hard at the Grizzly 0462.. I appreciated your comments, both pro and con.. in the end, I decided on the Jet 1442... I still want to do some bigger bowls and the Jet has a lower bottom end speed, a higher top end speed, looks a little heavier duty than the Grizzly(although I can't say this with confidence since I haven't seen the Grizzly up close-just pictures). The Grizzly did have a 2 hp motor vs a 1-1/2 on the Jet.. I'll get it put together over the weekend.

As light as the little Jet is, it's been a great machine and will remain my second lathe..and maybe my favorite... I'll hook up my buffing system on it and use it for that and pens and such.. I've definitely gotten my money out of it (especially since it was a gift and cost me nothing). :D:D

Oh and before I forget, you guys quit picking on Frank....he's cool.[8D][8D]
 
Chuck, I'll not do an entire quote on your post, will reconstruct some. The 1/2 hp on the mini is a mouse in comparison to the 1/2 hp motor on the Grizzly lathe I just sold. A three year old on a tricycle compared to an Indy racer. Diff'ernt animules entirely. That is my observation and experience after using the mini.
You said, "Frank, I was looking very hard at the Grizzly 0462.. "
It has been confused on other threads and forums also. My new Grizzly lathe is the G0632, the 220V, 1 1/2 HP EVS machine. It is less money than the G0462 but, IMHO, a whole whoop more and better lathe. I would class the G0632 as being 90% of a Powermatic for half the price. I recommend that you take a hard look at this model before making a purchase of anything. Or come over and give mine a test ride. Casa Fusco is always open.
 
Final thought on the subject. I'll be a devil's (Jet) advocate on this for a bit. It's a theory. I have done quite a bit of 3/4" boring for duck calls. Early on I decided that Forstner bits were not the proper tool for end grain drilling/boring of large holes in wood, particularly hard-hardwoods. I tried Forstners, spade, twist and brad points and settled on brad points as, far and away, the most efficient and best for that job. (I did not try the antique style spoon bits simply because they are not available even though I'm positive that would be the best choice) Also, the forces required to end grain bore just may be more than the lathe tailstock leadscrew were designed to withstand. It seems to me that, possibly, to take such forces coarser and/or square cut threads would be needed. That doesn't mean the Jet leadscrew isn't made of too soft a steel. Just a speculation. Methinks maybe a new drill press is in your future.
 
Hey Frank,
You are probably right.. I set up the 1442 today and drilled 3 peppermills.. I decided to try pilot holes before I went to the big forstners.. I ran a new 13/16 and a 1 1/8 spade bit the length of the mills, then went back with my 1 9/16 forstner and 1 3/4 forstner at the base for the grinder adjustment.. worked much better on the bigger lathe..
I use the 3/4" spade bit for my game calls, but would prefer to be able to use the forstner there so hole is cleaner.
 
Originally posted by ozmandus

Hey Frank,
You are probably right.. I set up the 1442 today and drilled 3 peppermills.. I decided to try pilot holes before I went to the big forstners.. I ran a new 13/16 and a 1 1/8 spade bit the length of the mills, then went back with my 1 9/16 forstner and 1 3/4 forstner at the base for the grinder adjustment.. worked much better on the bigger lathe..
I use the 3/4" spade bit for my game calls, but would prefer to be able to use the forstner there so hole is cleaner.

If the tailstock screw on your 1442 fails also, we all will have learned something. Let us know.
 
Frank, many people successfully turn bowls and peppermills on a Jet mini. They just learned to take light cuts.

You do a disservice to many turners when you propagate your impressions which are really misconceptions.
 
Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

Frank, many people successfully turn bowls and peppermills on a Jet mini. They just learned to take light cuts.

You do a disservice to many turners when you propagate your impressions which are really misconceptions.

That is exactly what I said. What is your problem?
 
Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

Frank, many people successfully turn bowls and peppermills on a Jet mini. They just learned to take light cuts.

You do a disservice to many turners when you propagate your impressions which are really misconceptions.

BTW, is it just my impressions/opinions which "do a disservice" or would you be happier if everyone here, excepting yourself, of course, were prohibited from expressing opinions? I should point out, your statement is your impression and opinion and the "misconceptions" characterization is unfounded, except in your own mind.
All of which really confuses things. Because you said what I said but you don't like what I said and you, apparently, only like what you said. Ron, go back to bed and try again another time.
 
With all due respect to both Ron and Frank, rafting bowls and pepper mills on a JET mini are two entirely different issues. With respect to turning bowls, the issue is the strength of the motor whereas with respect to to pepper mills, the issue is the strength/design of the tailstock assembly. In my opinion, it is pretty well established that bowls can be successfully crafted on the JET mini in sizes up to and even beyond the published swing specs of the Mini. I think most would agree that crafting of larger bowls and platters requires care and patience and is probably better done on a larger lathe; but it is possible.

OTOH, the issue of pepper mills is unresolved. Again, I don't think there would be too much disagreement in saying pepper mills can be successfully turned on a JET Mini. The real question is whether the materials and design of the Mini tailstock are adequate to stand up to the stresses of "DRILLING" pepper mills. Just because folks have turned pepper mills on a JET Mini doesn't mean they were drilling the blanks on that lathe. Always possible they were drilling the blanks on a big drill press and then moving them to the lather for turning.

And now Frank has has even raised the issue of drilling with the 1442. I raised this same issue with Chuck in a private communication and he basically said the design of the 1442 tailstock was the same as that of the Mini but was much beefier so he didn't expect a problem. Chuck based his opinion on an external examination of the tailstock and a review of the tailstock drawing in the 1442 manual. He indicated he did not disassemble the tailstock and actually look at the lead screw. I also looked at the tailstock drawing shown in the 1442 manual posted on the JET web site and either there "ARE" differences in the two design or the drawing of the 1442 tailstock has an error. Correctly or not, I still have some reservations about using large Forstner bits when drilling on the 1442.

Chucks idea of drilling pilot holes for the big Forstner bits is interesting and one that I would have "GUESSED" to be a bad one. Obviously, I would have been wrong since his initial experience has been positive.

As Ron has correctly pointed out, whether turning bowls or drilling pepper mills, the trick is to use lighter cuts to reduce the stress on the under-sized or under-designed lathe. Chuck has decided to utilize the lighter-cut principle by drilling the big holes in steps rather than drilling them in one shot. That makes a lot of sense to me although I was thinking of using a different method. After Chuck has done another 50 pepper mills, we will be able to better evaluate whether his method has solved the problem or not.

I was thinking about using a tool from the bowl turners inventory. Seems to me that anyone of the bowl turners hollowing tools would work just fine in boring the necessary openings for a pepper mill. Since they would be used to bore the openings in steps, the stresses involved would be greatly reduced. Additionally, they only cut half the diameter of the hole at a time contrary to Forstner bits which are cutting on both sides of the hole at the same time. Other thing of benefit is that those hollowing tools are designed specifically to cut the end grain of wood which may not be the case with Forstner bits.

Another tool that might be used would be a ??? bit. (forgotten what they are called) Frank would know about these as they were originally designed the bore the deep straight holes on gun barrels.

This is a very interesting question. I hope some other pepper mill crafters will jump in and tell us of their experiences.



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To drill out a pepper mill on a mini, you first start with a small drill and work up to the size you need. You may need a total of 2-5 drills, each one larger than the first to complete the drilling.
 
Randy said, in part, "Another tool that might be used would be a ??? bit. (forgotten what they are called) Frank would know about these as they were originally designed the bore the deep straight holes on gun barrels."
You are referring to spoon bits. Also used on the long flutes for bagpipes. As far as I know, they must be handmade. Not commercially available. Drill straight and are not deterred by knots.
 
Update on today's experience... between yesterday and today, I drilled 5 peppermills on the 1442... I started with a spade bit to do the pilot hole in the body... I have a 3/4, 13/16, and 1 1/8 spade bits.. I think I have a 1 inch, but it wasn't in the rack, so only Heaven knows where it might be now.. I started with the 13/16 and drilled as far as it would go in a body that was 8 to 10 inches long... usually I can get about 4 1/2 to 5 inches depth.. I then tried the 1 1/8, but it's very difficult to center up a wider spade bit, even though I never moved the blank in the chuck.. I got a lot of chatter and vibration, but succeeded in keeping the bit straight and steady into the opening... I then cut the 1 3/4 bottom hole for the crush/grind adjustment wheel... about 1/2 to 3/4 deep... then switched to the 1 9/16 forstner that makes up the through bore the length of the mill body. Drilled as deep as the original spade bit, then reversed the blank and followed same process from the top end.. except I didn't use the 1 3/4 forstner.

Except for having a little trouble with my Jacobs chuck not holding the bits well, this method worked pretty smoothly. You can turn the tailstock crank smoothly and easily until the bits start to pack the shaving a bit, then withdraw the bits and reset and continue drilling... all told, I think I completed the drilling on each mill blank in less than 30 minutes each.. I'm going to have to get another Jacobs chuck, since mine is worn and beginning to give me some greif... it may just need a thorough cleaning... it jaws seems to bind up inside.. I did a cursory cleaning of it before I started, but it still isn't smooth and my chuck key is definitely worn to the point it's difficult to get a good set... I've had this chuck for about 6 years and it has seen lots of use.

I've turned 4 of the 5 mills to shape, but haven't put any finish on them yet.. they are sanded and ready to seal and start to finish tomorrow. The finish will take a couple of days.
One is Honey Mesquite, One is Pau Ferro, the other two are mixed woods in a glue up. The fifth mill I drilled, but haven't turned yet is Osage Orange. I have about 6 more blanks all turned round and waiting to be drilled, plus about 5 more that I haven't started at all yet... over the next couple of weeks, I'll give this 1442 a thorough workout.. then I have about 3 tons of maple, willow, elm, oak and cedar stacked in my yard to start working up into bowls and hollow forms... etc..

Thanks to all that commented here.. a lot of good information came out of this thread and I'm thinking that maybe I tried to make do with a burro when what I really needed was a big mule..
and in retrospect, I've turned a lot of wood on my Jet mini... some pieces that I switched to the Jet after being tried first on the Ridgid which is effective a 1446 lathe, but has very light weight leg supports and a lot of sheet metal... it sits on a MDF base with a 2 1/2 pipe in place of the cast iron ways, no hand wheels on either head stock or tail stock..... all in all, a crappy lathe, but what the hey.. it was a gift. and I learned on it.
 
Thanks, Ron. That is what I was trying to remember.

Frank, I was looking at "SPOON BIT" on the Internet and they are commercially available. Looks like one of the most common uses is for boring holes for legs, spindles, and stretchers in making chairs.
 
Originally posted by Randy_

Thanks, Ron. That is what I was trying to remember.

Frank, I was looking at "SPOON BIT" on the Internet and they are commercially available. Looks like one of the most common uses is for boring holes for legs, spindles, and stretchers in making chairs.

Interesting. I'll Google the subject. Do you have a link or two?
 
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=57713&cat=1,180,42337

Spoon bits available from Lee Valley Tools. See above link.
 
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Chuck: Maybe you could solve your centering and chattering problems by doing the following? Try drilling the larger spade bit hole first to a depth of about one inch. Then switch over the the smaller bit and drill the hole as deep as possible before changing back to the bigger spade bit. This should solve your centering problem. Whether or not it will help with the chattering problem won't be known until you try it.

Just out of curiosity, how fast is the lathe turning when you use the spade bits? (and the Forstner bits). I found this chart of recommended drilling speeds; but every body seems to have slightly different recommendations so you might want to experiment a little if you haven't already done so.

http://sawdustmaking.com/Free Charts/Bit Speed.pdf

It just occurs to me that you could carry the above procedure one step further to help out with the centering problem and drill shallow "guide" holes with your Forstner bits as well before starting to drill full depth holes. It would involve a little extra time for all of the bit changing; but might be worth the effort if it solves your centering and chattering problems??

And now for a few other thoughts:

1. The great majority chuck keys come in only a few standard sizes. Next time you visit a Home Depot or local hardware store, take your chuck along and chances are good you will find a replacement for less than $5.

2. I, too, have had some trouble with spade bits moving in the Jacobs chuck if I am a little sloppy tightening the jaws. The better spade bits come with flats milled at 120° increments around the shaft of the bit and you definitely shouldn't have problems with the bits twisting in the drill chuck. I took my set of spade bits and filed flats on the three that I use most often and had trouble with. It is a little tricky to get it right and you have to have a vernier to get it reasonably accurate. More trouble that it is worth in the big picture. Spade bits aren't very expensive so I bought another set with the flats already milled.

3. Unless you purchased a particularly inexpensive drill chuck, the chances if it being worn out are pretty small. I would bet that a good cleaning and lubrication will get it back into proper working trim. If you have compressed air, I would blow it out thoroughly and then I would soak it overnight in kerosene or something similar. And flush it out the next day with the pressure of a garden hose. Then rinse it in a little rubbing alcohol to get rid of any water. Wipe the outside of the chuck with a little oil and put a drop or two on the jaws to lubricate the internal mechanism. Chances are high that the chuck will be restored to original functionality. I would avoid using any kind of a silicone lubricant. If you transfer some of the silicone from the chuck to your blanks, it may cause problems with the finishing process.


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