DOES ANYBODY EVER EXPERIMENT BEFORE THEY ASK??

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Mac

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I am aware that we have new turners sign up everyday, but if we do not try different things on our own, how are we to advance this skill, as a whole or as individuals. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to see new ideals, and I think that is the piont. Where do new ideals come from? The person that always ask, or the ones that experiment, or at least try first.
 
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Mac, I think it's a combination of both. We learn by asking, but we also learn by experience.

For me, when I experiment and make mistakes, that teaches me as much as asking questions sometimes. But when I am stumped, or otherwise just can't figure it out, asking questions is the best way to learn.
 
Some are on limited incomes and the point of trying blindly may be costly. Why not ask before trying to see if there any pitfalls?
 
I think a lot of the new Ideas stem from seeing other things that are done and then they are expanded upon. "thats nice but what happens if I............." I also believe that some of us have the persistant push to find the next level in pen making. Using different materials for blanks and finishing technics, different segmenting combinations or other designs in our pen blanks.

Mike
 
snyiper said:
Some are on limited incomes and the point of trying blindly may be costly. Why not ask before trying to see if there any pitfalls?
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Because experimentation doesn't always equate with ruining something or losing money.

Ever take a blown out blank and try to experiment with it? Like recasting it? Make it to fit something else? Go kitless? Filling it with CA? Or how about a tube that somehow got deformed? Cut it down to fit another pen? Make a mistake on the cigar pen bushing? Try to reverse the pen and see how it looks?

On the other hand, if there is a tutorial on the subject and you read it, or if you have something that is brand new and don't know what to do and ask questions, or want to try something that may ruin a blank or kit and you ask questions to see if anyone else has done it, again IMHO, that is just plain good sense.
 
I find it strange when I see postings like this that seemingly dissuade people from posting questions here. I thought this is what a message board was for? Now, don't get me wrong, when multiple post the same question over and over again, they need to take time and do a little research, but for the most part a message board is just that...a place to exchange ideas and help others who share the same passion. Seems like people get upset when folks post too many questions and then others get upset when members pop out of nowhere and post something because they normally "lurk" in the background.

Maybe I misunderstood the post... Should I have asked for more clarification or not? I dunno. :)
 
Most of my experiments and mods come from making mistakes. Damaging one part or another. I dont like to throw anything out so it all goes into a special drawer until I figure out a way to repair/fix/modify/alter or completly tear up.

I am not much of a tutorial type person. I dont "grab" the concept from words even with clear pictures. I am a hands on type learner, while I have read some of the tutorials for an idea on how something might be done, I dont follow them step by step. Mainly because I dont have the tools and gadgets some do. No chucks or any special closed end mandrels.

I experiment quite a bit..... It just dawned on me that must be because I make alot of boo-boos. Others may not experiment as much due to not having as much time as they would like in their shops?
 
I don't think limited income is an excuse. After all woodturning(penturning) is not a cheap hobby and everybody has a limited income it is just some have smaller limits. I am selfemployed and cannot draw unemployment and have not worked in two months, and don't draw any kind of check. If you have everything it takes to make a pen then you can try new things. As for wood to practice on just go find some FOG wood (found on ground).
 
Mac said:
Where do new ideals come from? The person that always ask, or the ones that experiment, or at least try first.
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Often after the basic skills have been acquired. Many fields begin with a period of training or apprenticeship. You first learn to do it the way others have done it, then maybe start innovating. I'm a surgeon, and while I think advances in surgery are important, I'd probably wait until I finished my training before I began experimenting. Now penmaking isn't surgery, and surely there's nothing wrong with somebody coming up with there own way of doing it right from the start. There's a YouTube video out there (I can't seem to find it ATM) of a guy making a very nice pen in the craziest way you've ever seen.

Isaac Newton says it even better "If I have seen further, it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants."
 
omb76 said:
I find it strange when I see postings like this that seemingly dissuade people from posting questions here. I thought this is what a message board was for? Now, don't get me wrong, when multiple post the same question over and over again, they need to take time and do a little research, but for the most part a message board is just that...a place to exchange ideas and help others who share the same passion. Seems like people get upset when folks post too many questions and then others get upset when members pop out of nowhere and post something because they normally "lurk" in the background.

Maybe I misunderstood the post... Should I have asked for more clarification or not? I dunno. :)
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It just seems that there are a lot of ?s that maybe, I just read to much into but it almost seems that some, want others to do the work for them maybe it is just me. if so just ignore me as I am stuck in your world.
I just think we all should row our own boat asking for help when needed not hooking on to the boat in front of us, and setting back for the ride.
 
I think people learn from experience. If somebody can learn from my experience and save themselves time,money and personal injury it is a good thing. Myself I will ask questions so I understand the idea and the way it is normally done then I go on from there. In my chosen industry there are somethings you can find out for yourself and others if somebody doesn't tell you it will take you a lot of time and some damaged goods before you find out on your own.
 
Answering someones question about penmaking doesn't by-pass the actual process of making a pen. The person asking assistance must still follow through on the actual pen making process. They can read the answer, and apply what they can to their own skills. Which in a way is experimenting, since you are doing something that is new to you. Answering a question only gives them a path to follow.
Tom
 
Here are two pages written by a great one. Mabe this should answer it all. Since i see more and more post from people that question why they should answer a question or give info that they have, a little reminder about what freely shearing experience is all about.

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russindex.shtml
http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Pens.html

From the IAP mission statement:

"... The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making".

If you don't want to answer a question, whatever the reason is just don't i personnaly will respect you choice but please please please, stop critisizing peoples that ask questions and the ones that are willing to answer them.
 
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Mac said:
omb76 said:
I find it strange when I see postings like this that seemingly dissuade people from posting questions here. I thought this is what a message board was for? Now, don't get me wrong, when multiple post the same question over and over again, they need to take time and do a little research, but for the most part a message board is just that...a place to exchange ideas and help others who share the same passion. Seems like people get upset when folks post too many questions and then others get upset when members pop out of nowhere and post something because they normally "lurk" in the background.

Maybe I misunderstood the post... Should I have asked for more clarification or not? I dunno. :)
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It just seems that there are a lot of ?s that maybe, I just read to much into but it almost seems that some, want others to do the work for them maybe it is just me. if so just ignore me as I am stuck in your world.
I just think we all should row our own boat asking for help when needed not hooking on to the boat in front of us, and setting back for the ride.
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It could be that the person has already tried and failed. We can't assume that just because they are asking a question, they haven't already attempted to find the answer by experimentation, no matter how easy it may seem to us.
Also, if you don't think a limited income is an excuse, let's call it a limited BUDGET. Even if someone has the money to experiment with something, they might not want to waste the money doing so when they can simply ask someone else how it's done.
Also, there are some people who are just in this "hobby" to try and make money, so they are trying to learn as quickly as possible.
 
Displaced Canadian said:
I think people learn from experience. If somebody can learn from my experience and save themselves time,money and personal injury it is a good thing. Myself I will ask questions so I understand the idea and the way it is normally done then I go on from there. In my chosen industry there are somethings you can find out for yourself and others if somebody doesn't tell you it will take you a lot of time and some damaged goods before you find out on your own.
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Very well said as is some of the other comments!!
It makes no difference if one does not have a budget for penturning or an unlimited budget. If a person has a question and an answer or suggestion is given, they have the option to accept or reject or eapand on the suggestion. Much can be learned from others sharing information and techniques. I have learned things from beginning turners ideas and designs. That is what, IMHO sharing is all about.
 
Moderator hat on here...There is ABSOLUTELY nothing at all wrong with asking any question that falls within the AUP or TOS here at IAP. Every question is welcome and hopefully will be answered by many different people with different perspectives. Afterall, that is the purpose of IAP...sharing information to advance the art of penturning.
 
Now, personal hat on here...

I think what Mac may be referring to are the posts where people come on and ask "Do you think this will work" when they are trying something they think is new. In the back of my mind I always comment to myself, "why don't you just try it and let US know that it does or does not work". Of course, you will never see me post that as a reply to a question since that would be rude and counterproductive to what IAP is about but I want to many times. Personally, in this type of scenario, I will NEVER ask that. I will just go and try it myself and see if I can figure it out. I have MANY failures to prove that ideas don't always work. Especially when it comes to casting. Most of those failures have not cost me much more than just a little time and some resin costs but it does cost a little. Some folks are one such a tight budget that even that little bit is too much to spare I guess.

It also boils down to some of us are naturally creators and leaders and some of us are naturally followers. Many want complete tutorials so they can FOLLOW step by step. Nothing wrong with having that mindset but it would do all of us good sometime to broaden our horizons and "JUST DO IT".
 
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I've been turning pens for about 9 months now and when i first started i was always on this site. i feel like i threw away a handful of money on mistakes and wanted to know as much as possible before i went any further. Now i feel like i know a little something. i blew out a pen on the pen press the other day and i loaded it on the lathe, cut it back to a clean spot and shortenend the brass. i now have a funny looking slimline, but i also have the confidence to try something like that where 8 months ago i was afraid to tell the wife i needed another hundred.
 
I can tell you everything you need to know about baking a cake but that does not mean that the first cake you bake following my recipe will turn out like my cake. It takes experience with backing to understand things such as adjusting the recipe for your altitude and how relative humidity effects t he out come.

Asking first gives you the basics and then you gain the experience to make it work. Hopefully, once you have mastered the technique, you can begin to modify it into something new and unique.

Its like any other form of art. We all use the same basic materials to make a pen. But it is how those materials are combined that make all the difference.
 
If you saw my 5 gallon bucket full of blown up blanks, you would know I'm an experimenter. Heck even when casting i've truly tryed some crazy stuff. Never really asked if anyone thought it would work.
 
Most of my learning experience starts with the words, "Oh S#*T!!".

But this is a great forum for asking for advice or help.

It comes down to Theoretical vs. Empirical experience.

Theoretical is a friend pointing out that you should really use a push block when ripping on the table saw.

Empirical is calling same friend from the hospital saying, "Wanna hear a funny story?"
 
Grim Spirit said:
Most of my learning experience starts with the words, "Oh S#*T!!".

But this is a great forum for asking for advice or help.

It comes down to Theoretical vs. Empirical experience.

Theoretical is a friend pointing out that you should really use a push block when ripping on the table saw.

Empirical is calling same friend from the hospital saying, "Wanna hear a funny story?"
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You sure that wouldn't be "Ah" ... At work (I did work sometime back) we used to say "one Ah S*** wiped out 1000 attaboys"

You could add to that "and keep your other hand well away from the saw blade" I speak here as one with some experience with putting my left hand into the blade while carefully using a push stick with my right.

Been there and done that....see above.
 
I saw no where in these posts anyone saying that questions should NOT be asked. Or is it just me?
 
Mac, i wonder how are you going to try to experiment when you haven't even born yet? Your profile says date of birth December 31 (2011) by the time you get around learning about tools we all going to be dead man.:eek::tongue::biggrin:
Aside the joke, you need to consider that not everyone is computer savvy and not everyone would know how to do the search. On the other hands, you noticed that we have different kids in different categories in school; special ed, regular ed, learning disabled, slow learner,etc. etc. .
Granted that maybe when most of us went to school we may not have had those categories ,but if we fit in one of them then we never learned to develop defenses or learned how to cope with them. Therefore, those conditions carried over to our adulthood and they are still there. Also, members here said that they are not written learners and they are more of visual learners. I always had the severe hearing problem and so i developed to be a visual learner, so it didn't matter how loud you said something unless you showed it to me I would learn it much faster. There are many that they are not quick as to know how to search certain articles, and you get the toady's kids they surf through information like it;s drinking water to them. you got to remember that most here did not go to school and learn with the computers, we had to rely on going to the library and look for stuff or we followed some one and learned by being apprentice. Put all these aspects into a jar and shake it then mold a person to your liking so you won't get agitated when someone asks qsn. Plus all the other reasons the other members have stated above.
 
phillywood said:
Mac, i wonder how are you going to try to experiment when you haven't even born yet? Your profile says date of birth December 31 (2011) by the time you get around learning about tools we all going to be dead man.:eek::tongue::biggrin:
Aside the joke, you need to consider that not everyone is computer savvy and not everyone would know how to do the search. On the other hands, you noticed that we have different kids in different categories in school; special ed, regular ed, learning disabled, slow learner,etc. etc. .
Granted that maybe when most of us went to school we may not have had those categories ,but if we fit in one of them then we never learned to develop defenses or learned how to cope with them. Therefore, those conditions carried over to our adulthood and they are still there. Also, members here said that they are not written learners and they are more of visual learners. I always had the severe hearing problem and so i developed to be a visual learner, so it didn't matter how loud you said something unless you showed it to me I would learn it much faster. There are many that they are not quick as to know how to search certain articles, and you get the toady's kids they surf through information like it;s drinking water to them. you got to remember that most here did not go to school and learn with the computers, we had to rely on going to the library and look for stuff or we followed some one and learned by being apprentice. Put all these aspects into a jar and shake it then mold a person to your liking so you won't get agitated when someone asks qsn. Plus all the other reasons the other members have stated above.
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This is a good try to get a Bdate out of me. By the way my offer still stands on showing you how to sharpen your tools.
 
Mac said:
I am aware that we have new turners sign up everyday, but if we do not try different things on our own, how are we to advance this skill, as a whole or as individuals. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to see new ideals, and I think that is the piont. Where do new ideals come from? The person that always ask, or the ones that experiment, or at least try first.
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I don't think you can blanket your question as a new turners thing. There are 2 parts to your question or at least 2 thoughts. If a new comer or in fact a seasoned veteran comes here and asks how do I do this or that is not the same thing as someone asking has anyone tried this or that and what is your results??? They may ask has anyone tried this or that and if you did can you give me some pointer on how to go about it. They may honestly not know where to begin to say do a double knot or add metals to a segment as examples.

I agree that ideas are born through experimenting but also through gathering info. We are not the only source on the net for pen turning info. I do think newbies need to just plain turn more. When they want to step things up then start by looking in the library or doing the search thing here. I think this is what gets frustrating at times. That is why the same ??? keep getting asked over and over. No one wants to discourage anyone from asking questions because that is what this forum is all about. But if you truely want to do this put some effort into looking for the answer other than having it posted again and again.

I don't know if this made sense or not but those are my thoughts on this question.
 
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Everything I turn is an experiment. I'm always trying something different. I believe if I had to do several of the same thing in a row, I'd be bored out of my skull. Even requests for matching items, I do something else in between.

That's just me. If I get stuck, yeah, I ask the questions I need to ask. Hopefully one day I'll be qualified to answer some of the questions that are asked here. Till then I'm still developing my skill & technique and loving every minute of it..
 
This is a good try to get a Bdate out of me. By the way my offer still stands on showing you how to sharpen your tools.[/quote]

Mac, unless you house me for the day that's too many hours for me to drive, I would love to come and visit. However, i don't think that it's been that long form my back surgery so I have to stop twice at least to stretch out, plus I think I'll miss it this month. I see if I can catch one of those $49 SW airlines ticket someday.
 
Mac said:
I am aware that we have new turners sign up everyday, but if we do not try different things on our own, how are we to advance this skill, as a whole or as individuals. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to see new ideals, and I think that is the piont. Where do new ideals come from? The person that always ask, or the ones that experiment, or at least try first.[/quot

For those that think this is for new turners it is not. Maybe my highschool ed can help me peck this down right here goes.
The words (and they may need help) should go between (everyday,----- but).
As for asking for help I ask all the time and am in 2 AAW clubs and help with our local IAP club, and read about turning and search the webb for articles all the time. BUT I still experiment with NEW ideals on a regualar basis. I guess I am from old school, put it together then read the manual. My dad said (son you learn from your mistakes but try not to make so many).
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Mac said:
Mac said:
I am aware that we have new turners sign up everyday, but if we do not try different things on our own, how are we to advance this skill, as a whole or as individuals. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to see new ideals, and I think that is the piont. Where do new ideals come from? The person that always ask, or the ones that experiment, or at least try first.[/quot
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Some of my best "new" ideas were just noodling around with odd materials I wanted to see if I could turn a pen from. Most of the time I just pull the trigger on it and see what happens. I have asked, then tried, and sometimes no one has an effective answer for it, and sometimes great advice saves me a ton of heartache. It depends in how confident I am that I can get it done with my skills and tools as to whether I ask questions first.
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I'm not sure if I totally grasp the OP's point or not, but....

I am a self taught turner and have a collection of failures and mishaps 100 or more strong on display on a shelf next to my lathe. Some of them are for inspiration, and others are just sad reminders, but all of them are part of my experience.

I consider my aptitude for turning bowls, boxes, and spindly type things a little above average and I experiment daily. But when it comes to pens, you have to figure in the mechanical components and other associated bits and pieces, and that is where I stumble, so this is the place I try to get advise.

I also know a lot of people get tired of seeing the same old questions too, but try to search the forum for most of those same old questions and you'll get the maximum amount of possibilities (500) to sift through on the query and that (I think) is the reason a lot of people just ask what they want/need to know.

I've spent no telling how many hours here sifting through old posts and sometimes I never quite find out what I need to know, or maybe the information I do find seems dated, or I may just want some fresh thoughts on the subject because of circumstances that are specific to my situation.

Just because someone's question may seem obvious or trivial to you, it's certainly not to the one who is asking. Luckily I do have a couple of members here that I can PM with a question, especially when I think it's one of those questions that may bore the rest of the class.
 
I am always trying new and different things and I make things that no one else here makes. Questions are a way of learning and even if I know a lot I find that asking questions often sparks new ideas or a different perspective depending on the answers from different turners.
 
Me, I have no problem with any question being asked. I have posted many myself and tried to share what little knowledge that I may possess. Let me throw out another question while we are at it, why reinvent the wheel every time a new member tries to turn something? The wheel has already been invented. If you have an improvement, then by all means let the light shine on it so the world can beat a path to your shop and make a purchase. If I have found a way to do something and wish to market it, then it is up to me to protect it or open it to the world for them to use it freely.
Myself, I have little imagination for a new thing to make, but give me an object and I will try to find an easier or better way to do the same thing. The ability to ask almost any question on this site is what brought me here. It is what keeps me here. This is the single best place I have found to increase my humble knowledge. Here I have had demonstrated to me some of the finest pieces of workmanship available. There are names but I will not start that because of my poor memory. I will not leave one of our great workmen out.
On the question, Has anyone here tried this? I believe this is a great starting point of discovery. If someone has already tried it, then share the pitfalls encountered, otherwise, pass on an encouraging word and make any suggestion that may be of help. If you do not want to answer a question, then just read the post and pass on to the next one. I have found nothing listed here that requires everyone to answer each question. If I can learn from another's mistake, then I have saved a small thing for the environment and my pocketbook. None of us will possibly live long enough to make all the mistakes. It just is not going to happen.
Charles
 
It is hard to come up with an original idea. There are several ideas I have had that I thought were original only to find with further research it has already been done. That what I think this forum is all about, bouncing ideas around with each other so that we may perfect them. When I first started making kit pens it was fun but after a few simple pens it got old. If I had not found this forum and learned all the diffent ideas people were sharing I would not be making pens now. I realize some new members ask questions we have seen several times but I feel we all have to remember we were once the new kid on the block and I have always heard there is only one dumb question and that is the one you need an answer to and don't ask.To me the best solution is to direct new members to where they can find the answers or just answer them,after all when you first joined did you know to look in the library. Many things we take for granted are things we learned after spending some time on here. I have tried things on my own and after tossing ideas around with other people but by far most of what I have learned has been right here in this forum or at different woodturning meetings I have attended.
 
As for me, a beginner in all her glory, I have no clue what I'm doing. I'm sitting here in anticipation of my lathe, and my starter kit, doing the only thing that I can - asking a ton of questions and reading everything I can.

For me, when I start a new project or craft (because believe me, I go through crafts like I wear clothes) I always do a fair amount of research and ask a ton of questions. I like direct answers. "I do it THIS way" or "THIS is my favorite way." When people say "Oh, it doesn't matter, there are plenty of good ways," I don't find that very helpful because I have NO CLUE what the "plenty of good ways" are.

But once I start actually working, and turning my own projects, I like to figure things out for myself. I am very independant and would much rather figure things out on my own - than have an instructor there holding my hand every step of the way.

In my ideal world, I'd have enough money to buy a little bit of everything. I'd buy all the gorgeous acryillic blanks I could find and test all the finishing and turning methods on my own. But since I'm on a very small budget, and don't have the time to go through every single mistake that those before me have already made, I am willing to turn to the wisdom and experience of IAP members and just accept some things for fact.

A good example of this would be whether or not to use a mandrel. Almost all the instructional videos I've seen have included a mandrel and they all seem to work just fine. But when I watched John's videos with his own custom made bushings it also seemed to work very well. But I've decided to just start at square 1 with the mandrel and bushings that come with my starter get and see how I like it. After awhile I'll probably give the other method a go too.

I guess my point is what you see on this forum is no indication of what someone is doing with the information they've learned or asked. Just because someone is asking a TON of questions and seemingly trying to cut right to the top of the pen turning master's pyramid, doesn't mean they are. They may simply be gathering information for later use - or help in deciding which products to purchase and experiment with.

Anyways, I hope I haven't overstepped some invisible boundary (being a new member and turner). I tend to be very direct and outspoken, so I please don't take this personally. I just wanted to share my PoV.


And let me just add what I mean when I say very limitied budget (though it feels a bit weird to me explaining my finacial situation). My parents have been gracious enough to gift me with everything I need to get started as well as a spot in their garage/shop to use. My husband and I live in an apartment and I would not have been able to do this without them. So yes, I have everything I need to turn a pen. But I know in the future when I've used up all the materials in the starter kit, I will have to purchase things on my own. So believe me when I say that I am on a limited income/budget and that I don't have money to just throw away on figuring out which bushings to use, or which finisher to use, or what chisels to buy, or whether or not a certain thing will even work. Doubtless I will end up with countless mistakes as I learn the way - and these (like many have said) will be the starting point for figuring out a new method or two - but I'm not going to waste a beautiful piece of stabalized burl or custom cast acryillic just to TRY it. So if I can save myself some heartache, I will ask before I leap.
 
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I don't ask for directions. . .unless I'm totally lost.
I don't ask for help with pen making. . .unless I don't have a clue what I'm doing wrong.

But I will study maps and spend big money on a GPS.
I will spend a lot of time searching old threads and other online sources to learn how to solve some pen related problem.

However, sometimes I don't have a clue what is going wrong and I need some help.
 
Hey this is the information age, if you ask a question about anything you will get an answer here ....always. You may also be pointed to other threads as well as our library. The people here are the absolute best in the world friendly, giving and yes sarcastic at times but hey we all need a balance. I can only speak for myself but I am sure others will echo, if you have a question any question ask and if it is with in my knowledge base I will share with each and everyone here if I don't know I can assure you someone does and we will both find out together. Those that do not want to answer usually don't, so do not worry about asking that's why we are here for after all!!!
 
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