Do you/would you use Cheers & Jeers

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Is there a value to Cheers and Jeers, for you?

  • Yes, I have consulted Cheers & Jeers before purchasing, to evaluate vendors

    Votes: 34 36.6%

  • No, I have not consulted Cheers & Jeers before purchasing, to evaluate vendors

    Votes: 35 37.6%

  • It never occurred to me--I might in the future

    Votes: 6 6.5%

  • I really don't care what others have done, so it is of no value to me

    Votes: 26 28.0%
  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
ed4copies

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,701
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
to evaluate a vendor before doing business?

This is particularly aimed at newer turners--when you are trying to find products, has the cheers & jeers forum on IAP been of any value to you?

You are allowed more than one answer, because the questions are not mutually-exclusive.
 
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Yes, the forum does provide some value. I try to keep an "open mind" and do not jump to conclusions when someone complains. However if multiple members share a similar "inconvenience" then yes it does weigh in on my decision to doing business with that vendor. I also read "who" posts the complaints and the nature of the complaint.
 
I think the forum provides value. I also should say that when people go overboard with jeers it tells me that this company is someone that I probably WANT, yes I mean WANT to deal with.

Curt
 
I rarely look at the C&J forum here... once or twice just to see what was there, but has no value to me.

When looking form items on the interweb, I do read the reviews and particularly the negative reviews, but in the end, if the item is something I want or need, don't pay a
lot of attention to others opinions.
 
When I still had my business (Child Care Centers), over a 3 year period my business was regularily trashed by other "anonymous" posters on on-line ratings. That was also over a 3 year period my centers won a write-in newspaper contest for the "Best" businesses in the county. My centers won the top place over 63 other day care centers... And had a HORRIBLE on-line rating with most of the compilers...

I will take my chances with any vendor I choose, then go back to those I personally had good experiences with. And after running a business for 26 years, some days we did excellent, every now and then we could have been better! I aimed for a very high, consistent level of excellence, and when I messed up used it as a learning experience to get better.

The forum... I do read the reviews, and usually cringe - both for when vendors could have done better, and for when they are quite obviously getting unfairly trashed. (Been there, had that happen). Most importantly, at times we simply DO NOT know what is being reported it correct as written. So I will read it and proceed with caution.

Oh, and I also do this with positive reports. Sometimes they are very helpful, other times it is quite obvious folks have an "agenda."

Just my opinion! Your experiences should trump anything I say/think.
 
Ed

Yes, I sure would. I read all of both the cheers and the jeers that I see.

And keeping in mind that there is always two sides to a story. It would be fool hardy not to use them.

IMHO there are three things that make up my mind when making a purchase of any kind. 1) Quality 2) Customer Service. and 3) Price. Honestly Quality and Customer service are a tie.

Yes I will pay more for the same item if I know I am going to get GOOD customer service before, during and especially AFTER the sale. During the sale I not only what to be treated like I am the most important customer of the day, then afterward there is nothing I dislike more then having a problem and then getting a hassle to correct it.

So yes I want to know who is going to give that service or not.
 
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I have really mixed feelings about C&J.

I understand the value of objective reviews of products and services. And I can see how C&J would be of great benefit to the community in the event a new vendor emerges from the woodwork (pardon the pun) with questionable business practices and who takes advantage of our colleagues.

On the other hand, I don't have a lot of patience with situations in which someone has an isolated problem with a vendor, and the usual bunch of whiners pile on to repeat their same old complaints about their bad experience with that vendor - especially when many other paper have had perfectly good encounters with that same vendor.

Another problem with C&J is that in most cases, problems with vendors get resolved. But the way the system is currently set up, we hear about the problems but not about the solutions.

Every vendor has problems - and the more we do business with a vendor, the more likely it is that we will be the person who gets caught in one of those problems. The true measure of a vendor is not that they have problems, but rather in the way that they resolve those problems.
 
Not having turned/made too many pens I consider myself a new turner and I definitely haven't bought a whole lot from the various pen supply places on the internet so I do read the C&J forum to see what other turners are saying about the vendors.. But it has little bearing on my shopping habits; I've had nothing but great service from one vendor who is frequently bashed in the C&J forum and mediocre service from one vendor who is frequently praised.

I will say that when I noticed that one business has been occasionally criticized for poor communication and it looks to be an ongoing issue with that business I decided not to patronize the establishment. With so many good vendors out there I'm not going to waste my time with one that isn't willing to communicate with it's customers.
 
As a vendor as well as a retail customer of other vendors, I pay a lot closer attention to jeers than I do cheers. And, I check for anything directed toward my own business.

I generally try to evaluate jeers to see if they are justified and my opinion is that often they are not. The seem to often be directed at a vendor for something the customer is actually responsible for like ordering the wrong thing and expecting the vendor to bear the cost of fixing the mistake.

I don't pay too much attention to cheers for a couple of reasons:

1. Some members like particular vendors so much that it seems like they give the vendor a cheer every time they get an order from them.

2. In my opinion many cheers are given to a vendor when USPS or another carrier happens to do a real good job on delivery.

3. I often see cheers given for what should just be normal customer service.
 
I read them, but don't research them before buying. However, if I'd known about this sub forum when I was new, I probably would have used it.
 
"As a vendor as well as a retail customer of other vendors, I pay a lot closer attention to jeers than I do cheers. And, I check for anything directed toward my own business. "

Wise man Smitty, One has to know there is a problem to fix it.
 
As someone just learning pen turning, I find C&J interesting to read and somewhat helpful in my selection of vendors.

For example, one vendor many on this forum use has often been criticized for slow shipping. I used that information to factor in that I might just need to allow some extra shipping days when I order from them. I have been happy with that arrangement on my orders from them.

Also, I found two other vendors that I am happy with from reading this forum. Ed - since you asked this question - you are one of those.
 
I dont use the jeers or cheers these days. If you have an issue with popular vendor member and you write a jeer, you invariably get your head chewed off by that vendor's desciples. I don't buy stuff from any popular vendor member any more for the same reason. That way I dont feel I have to advertise their products when I post my work.
It seems you can only get away with complaining about Steebar or perhaps one of the foreign companies.
A vendor far too often gets a cheer just because the timing of the postage cycle got the product to the punter quicker. But if the vendor messes up and doesn't get it posted in a reasonable time, then the postal service gets the blame.

The vendors here are often bickering about who's product is superior. I'm sick and tired of hearing that one is better than the next or one is a crappy copy.
The fact is that all these kits are made in China. Taiwan is part of China. I suspect that most of our vendors don't really have a clue which is really the better product manufacturer.

If I need kits and can't get them locally, then I'll get them from CSUSA or PSI.

Another thing I deliberately try to avoid is commenting on someones work if their post just reads like an advert for a vendor. I only care about how you made the pen, not who you bought the kit from.

Sorry for being so negative, but once bitten, twice shy.

Edit in: Why are the poll results hidden? Don't you think we can make up our own minds without being swayed?
 
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Well said, wish I could have placed more likes:biggrin:

Smitty37 said:
As a vendor as well as a retail customer of other vendors, I pay a lot closer attention to jeers than I do cheers. And, I check for anything directed toward my own business.

I generally try to evaluate jeers to see if they are justified and my opinion is that often they are not. The seem to often be directed at a vendor for something the customer is actually responsible for like ordering the wrong thing and expecting the vendor to bear the cost of fixing the mistake.

I don't pay too much attention to cheers for a couple of reasons:

1. Some members like particular vendors so much that it seems like they give the vendor a cheer every time they get an order from them.

2. In my opinion many cheers are given to a vendor when USPS or another carrier happens to do a real good job on delivery.

3. I often see cheers given for what should just be normal customer service.
Click to expand...
 
Smitty37 said:
As a vendor as well as a retail customer of other vendors, I pay a lot closer attention to jeers than I do cheers. And, I check for anything directed toward my own business.

I generally try to evaluate jeers to see if they are justified and my opinion is that often they are not. The seem to often be directed at a vendor for something the customer is actually responsible for like ordering the wrong thing and expecting the vendor to bear the cost of fixing the mistake.

I don't pay too much attention to cheers for a couple of reasons:

1. Some members like particular vendors so much that it seems like they give the vendor a cheer every time they get an order from them.

2. In my opinion many cheers are given to a vendor when USPS or another carrier happens to do a real good job on delivery.

3. I often see cheers given for what should just be normal customer service.
Click to expand...


I certainly like Leroy's (Smitty37) response. There are times when you will have issues with vendors/suppliers, just remember, they are only human and can make mistakes. Approach any person in a respectful manner and you get a respectful response. If you go in with an aggressive manner, then expect them to be on guard and less responsive to your issue.

We also need to understand the wording 'Cheers/Jeers' A lot of the threads I have looked at have gone beyond this meaning and it comes out more 'Ranting/Raving'

Dave.
 
skiprat said:
I dont use the jeers or cheers these days. If you have an issue with popular vendor member and you write a jeer, you invariably get your head chewed off by that vendor's desciples. I don't buy stuff from any popular vendor member any more for the same reason. That way I dont feel I have to advertise their products when I post my work.
It seems you can only get away with complaining about Steebar or perhaps one of the foreign companies.
A vendor far too often gets a cheer just because the timing of the postage cycle got the product to the punter quicker. But if the vendor messes up and doesn't get it posted in a reasonable time, then the postal service gets the blame.

The vendors here are often bickering about who's product is superior. I'm sick and tired of hearing that one is better than the next or one is a crappy copy.
The fact is that all these kits are made in China. Taiwan is part of China. I suspect that most of our vendors don't really have a clue which is really the better product manufacturer.

If I need kits and can't get them locally, then I'll get them from CSUSA or PSI.

Another thing I deliberately try to avoid is commenting on someones work if their post just reads like an advert for a vendor. I only care about how you made the pen, not who you bought the kit from.

Sorry for being so negative, but once bitten, twice shy.

Edit in: Why are the poll results hidden? Don't you think we can make up our own minds without being swayed?
Click to expand...

I am with skiprat on this one. You have asked people to open their hearts about Cheers/Jeers and I think the poll results should be made public for all to see.

Dave
 
They add value, but don't drive, my decision-making especially in how to resolve a dispute and establishing some expectations. I have also spent hundreds or low-thousands with suppliers that have received Jeers because my experience with them was positive.

I also think Cheers and Jeers will find their way to other forums even if prohibited - just the law of unintended consequences. At least with Cheers and Jeers, there is a place to confine them (and mitigate passive aggressive comments in other forums). I could live with or without it, but I prefer it. I don't think I posted a Jeer yet, and it's not because I was never unhappy with an outcome or desire to be a nice guy.

Thanks for the poll Ed.
 
I read the C&J but it doesn't influence my buying other than sometimes I find out a vendor carries something I didn't know that had! Most of the cheers are written by a very dedicated few who support that vendor. Jeers are written by a dedicated few who do not like a vendor. To me, in most cases, the cheer or jeer is not warranted.

Like many I have a limited budget for my hobby. I make my buying decisions primary on cost (item, shipping, tax, any coupons or discounts that are available) vs quality. I have never had a problem with any of the vendors I have purchased from. There are advantages and disadvantages to each vendor. Sometimes that weighs into my decision but mostly my decision is based on cost.
 
One nice feature of polls, as the OP, you are given the option of showing results immediately, never, or after the poll is closed.

I typically take the "after the poll is closed" option. I am not an expert on polls, but there are many experts. Elections in the United States are conducted with this same rule--no results can be broadcast on the day of voting, until the polls are closed. If the voting regulators, who are collectively paid millions of dollars for their opinions, think this leads to the "best" results, I am willing to agree.

You will see the results of this poll in about two weeks, when it closes.

This was motivated by my involvement in the management of IAP, we are interested in any ways the Cheers & Jeers could be improved, but also whether it serves any purpose.

Hope you understand (you are entitled to disagree) the motivation of hiding the results.

Ed
 
skiprat said:
I dont use the jeers or cheers these days. If you have an issue with popular vendor member and you write a jeer, you invariably get your head chewed off by that vendor's desciples. I don't buy stuff from any popular vendor member any more for the same reason. That way I dont feel I have to advertise their products when I post my work.
It seems you can only get away with complaining about Steebar or perhaps one of the foreign companies.
A vendor far too often gets a cheer just because the timing of the postage cycle got the product to the punter quicker. But if the vendor messes up and doesn't get it posted in a reasonable time, then the postal service gets the blame.

The vendors here are often bickering about who's product is superior. I'm sick and tired of hearing that one is better than the next or one is a crappy copy.
The fact is that all these kits are made in China. Taiwan is part of China. I suspect that most of our vendors don't really have a clue which is really the better product manufacturer.

If I need kits and can't get them locally, then I'll get them from CSUSA or PSI.

Another thing I deliberately try to avoid is commenting on someones work if their post just reads like an advert for a vendor. I only care about how you made the pen, not who you bought the kit from.

Sorry for being so negative, but once bitten, twice shy.

Edit in: Why are the poll results hidden? Don't you think we can make up our own minds without being swayed?
Click to expand...

Trying to get back into the pace of the site again and I see this post. This probably should have been posted in the Polls forum but none the less. I think Skip has hit the preverbial nail on the head or should I say SCREW :smile:

To me I could care less if it stayed or went or got reformed. I do not use it. This has been a long standing situation here from when this forum started and continues to grow as all these new and old vendors grow. Each and everyone and I mean everyone has problems and good points. Lumping in when a vendor sends products out or when they arrive is such a crap shoot it is ridiculous. You and they are at the mercy of the delivery system. The size of the vendor and the products they carry and availability are all leading factors. For every jeer there is a cheer for each vendor. Too many times problems or blame should fall onto the buyer but those facts get eliminated. And each case is different. Believe me if there were a a vendor that was constantly in the JEERS headlight it will be well known throughout the pen turning community.

Skip also mentioned this and I happen to agree. I hate it too when people show their work and within the discription is where the kit was purchased or the blank was purchased. If someone wants to know then offer the info but lets not give free advertisement every time someone makes a pen.
 
Well, if you are not interested in the replies you receive from the members and insist on doing it your way irrespective, then dont ask us the questions.
You may be part of the hierarchy on this forum, but that doesnt make you more senior, superior or more important than any other member here
 
skiprat said:
Well, if you are not interested in the replies you receive from the members and insist on doing it your way irrespective, then dont ask us the questions.
You may be part of the hierarchy on this forum, but that doesnt make you more senior, superior or more important than any other member here
Click to expand...

Funny Skip, but it seems like you are the one not interested in replies received. Ed posted his reasons for why he did the poll the way he did, he commented that people are entitled to disagree. Yet you tell him not to ask question and come close to an attack that you're implying HE is acting superior when you're the one doing that.

Why attack him for not doing a poll the way you want? Jeff has left the poll options so the poster can choose. If your way is the ONLY way that polls should be done, Jeff could choose to limit the polls to be only public right away.
 
Alphageek - Please update your user icon to the new "Darth Vader". The one you have is so 1970's. #longlivethefirstorder

(Glad I could contribute to this thread in a meaningful way.)

:)
 
In my opinion, exposing poll results before the poll is over skews the result. Some people, not everyone, are affected by (discouraged from voting, bandwagon effect, etc.) partial results. In general, we set polls here to show the results when finished. I don't recall any poll in the general forums where the results were not made public.
 
Exposing results

jeff said:
In my opinion, exposing poll results before the poll is over skews the result. Some people, not everyone, are affected by (discouraged from voting, bandwagon effect, etc.) partial results. In general, we set polls here to show the results when finished. I don't recall any poll in the general forums where the results were not made public.
Click to expand...


I learned in college marketing that displaying results can (not necessarily will) change voter behavior (although our election coverage seems not to think or so, or whatever). This is what I was taught - just saying what I was taught and what I needed to answer on a test :smile: - was that displaying votes may discourage voters or survey participants from voting for their candidate, or voting at all, if they see that their candidate or product is losing or unpopular.

I have no idea is that is right or wrong. However, that has been my motivation for temporarily hiding the results or making voting anonymous.
 
TonyL said:
jeff said:
In my opinion, exposing poll results before the poll is over skews the result. Some people, not everyone, are affected by (discouraged from voting, bandwagon effect, etc.) partial results. In general, we set polls here to show the results when finished. I don't recall any poll in the general forums where the results were not made public.
Click to expand...


I learned in college marketing that displaying results can (not necessarily will) change voter behavior (although our election coverage seems not to think or so, or whatever). This is what I was taught - just saying what I was taught and what I needed to answer on a test :smile: - was that displaying votes may discourage voters or survey participants from voting for their candidate, or voting at all, if they see that their candidate or product is losing or unpopular.

I have no idea is that is right or wrong. However, that has been my motivation for temporarily hiding the results or making voting anonymous.
Click to expand...
In the Political World i.e. USA Presidential Elections the problem was not in reporting the vote. Beginning in the 1964 elections CBS started reporting the election winner (over half of the electoral votes) before the polls closed on the West Coast. To head off legislation the various news media voluntarily (after the 1980 presidential election) agreed to not report exit poll data until all polls have closed. In recent elections some media sources have abandoned the voluntary agreement.
 
ed4copies said:
One nice feature of polls, as the OP, you are given the option of showing results immediately, never, or after the poll is closed.

I typically take the "after the poll is closed" option. I am not an expert on polls, but there are many experts. Elections in the United States are conducted with this same rule--no results can be broadcast on the day of voting, until the polls are closed. If the voting regulators, who are collectively paid millions of dollars for their opinions, think this leads to the "best" results, I am willing to agree.

You will see the results of this poll in about two weeks, when it closes.

This was motivated by my involvement in the management of IAP, we are interested in any ways the Cheers & Jeers could be improved, but also whether it serves any purpose.

Hope you understand (you are entitled to disagree) the motivation of hiding the results.

Ed
Click to expand...

Hi Ed...Thanks for clearing up the issue on the hidden poll. I will be interested in seeing the results.

Dave.
 
I fully agree with Tony's second paragraph in post #18.

I don't use the Cheer & Jeer to assess whether I might use, or continue to use, a vendor. I prefer to make my own decisions based on my own experiences. If something goes wrong, I rely on my customer service skills to resolve the problem. When a problem happens, resolving it is little more than a negotiation; some people stink at that. Pound the facts, not the table.
Once you lose your temper, you lose your advantage. You may not win every time, but if you leave the other party thinking about what they would have done differently next time, you've gained traction.

CAUTION: The following is harsh. If you offend easily, skip it

I read the Cheers and Jeers out of an odd sense of morbid curiosity, kind of like rubbernecking a car accident. My hope is that nobody was seriously hurt, but I marvel at the mayhem and chaos and wonder what caused the wreck in the first place.

I've observed that, if IAP was running a fever and needed a temperature check, there are a handful of profile names that would be good candidates for inserting the rectal thermometer. I can't help but wonder if some vendors' customer service takes these names into consideration in their customer service. I wouldn't blame them if they do. There are people who want to blame everybody but themselves when something goes wrong.

The jeers have helped me decide who on IAP I won't waste time on a response to a question or a problem, even when I know the answer or have a useful solution.
 
I would hope that new members do t make purchasing decisions based on the CHEERS & jeers section. It is so lopsided that it's all but worthless for that purpose. People post cheers for anything and everything, whether the company had control over things (fast transit times), or not. Don't dare post a jeer though, not without a flack suit on. It's hard not to believe that many jeers go unposted for fear of attack.
 
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