Do you have a "saw-stop" saw?

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ed4copies

ed4copies

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If so, you might want to be careful about cutting some pen blanks.

I got a report from a friend, stating that the metal in tru-stone blanks truly is conductive!! He knows this, because cutting a gold web blank, his saw stop stopped!!

So, don't cut your blanks on THAT saw!!

Saved you a few bucks:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:, again:eek::eek::eek:
 
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My saw stop is "never put my fingers in the saw blade"!

Oh; One other proviso, The saw blade must be at least 8-1/2" diameter. I did a demo with my 7-1/4" circular saw blade in the saw and it would not turn on. May be different now.
 
Good to know. One of my coworkers was considering buying one and one of the salesmen at a local Rockler told him about one of their customers who kept coming in every couple of weeks to pick up a new module and saw blade. Seems he was cutting green wood and that was setting it off.
 
jsolie said:
Good to know. One of my coworkers was considering buying one and one of the salesmen at a local Rockler told him about one of their customers who kept coming in every couple of weeks to pick up a new module and saw blade. Seems he was cutting green wood and that was setting it off.
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Now someone should explain to him how to check if the wood is too wet or green. If you saw in Bypass mode it will not set the brake off and will also give you an indication of a red light on the control module showing that it was a conductive piece of material. Those setups gets awful expensive because you are also buying a new blade with that saw.

Now all the rage is with the sawstop saw and you knew it was just a matter of time when someone else came on board to play also. The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them.

An alternative to that saw is Bosch ReaXX table saw. With this saw you have the same safety features but their breaking system is somewhat different that the blade disappears but there is no break to stop the blade mechanically. Thus you do not have to replace the blade and it takes just 60 seconds to reset. The cartridges are cheaper in the long run and the nice thing it is a job site saw. This is where many accidents happen.

Just another alternative and I believe there will be other players.


Ed, not sure why you chose to post this news here and not on the main forum. This is news that can affect not only your customers but anyone who uses that saw. It maybe something to also check out with the Bosch saw too. I would like to see this post moved to a better suited forum that shows up on the front page as well. Just my thoughts. It is a serious concern.
 
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jttheclockman said:
Now all the rage is with the sawstop saw and you knew it was just a matter of time when someone else came on board to play also. The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them.

An alternative to that saw is Bosch ReaXX table saw. With this saw you have the same safety features but their breaking system is somewhat different that the blade disappears but there is no break to stop the blade mechanically. Thus you do not have to replace the blade and it takes just 60 seconds to reset. The cartridges are cheaper in the long run and the nice thing it is a job site saw. This is where many accidents happen.
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John a slight correction if I may.

The SawStop inventor went to all the players in the industry to licence his mechanism. All of them refused it, not because he wanted too much for the licence, but because if they used it it would open them up to lawsuits for all their other models of saws, past, present and future, that didn't have a blade brake. Having no interest in it and unable to get lawmakers to require a brake on saws, which got under a lot of peoples skins, he set up his own company to make saws himself.

Nothing really happened until a labourer working for a floor installation company cut off his fingers using a job site saw with no guards and successfully sued the manufacturer of that saw for a lot of money. Then and only then did your government bring in legislation requiring manufacturers to have blade brakes on all table saws. Bosch is the first since then to come up with a blade brake, and it won't be long before others debut their own using their own system or by licensing SawStop's, Bosch's or someone else's.

As for the "The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them." Isn't that the American way? I thought it was the dream of one and all to make money hand over fist with an idea they came up with even if it only affordable by a few. Pharmaceutical companies behave like it is. Someone came up with a way to save fingers and greedy people didn't want to pay for it until the threat of lawsuits and new laws forced them into it. Otherwise those greedy souls were content to collect their dividends and bonuses while ignoring people loosing digits left hand and right. :wink:
 
Pete there is a lot more to this story than what you are telling and I do not want to bring it in here. Just as most things you can spin it any way to make it favor your side weather pro or con. People can look this up for themselves. Sawstop is now suing Bosch because what they call infringement. The technology is totally different, yes the idea is the same but that does not carry water. Steve Gass wants it all. He wants all companies to come to him for his technology. As I said I do not want to get into it but there is a whole lot more to this story.

It amazes me to no end why the focus is always been on table saws when every tool with a blade or bit is just as dangerous to operate. Each tool has safeguards built in but it always comes down to the operators error. But today we can sue just for being dumb.

Soon we will have cars driving themselves because we are too dumb to be behind a wheel. Lawyers have to be lining up for those lawsuits coming.

If you remember I did post this about the SS. This scenario has not been truly diagnosed. When dealing with electronics strange things can happen.

Sawstop problems - WOODWEB's Architectural Woodworking Forum

Not to get off topic here.
 
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Yes, it IS off-topic, but that's GREAT!!

It's a debate--based on facts, and perception of the facts--and VERY healthy for education. I encourage both of you and any others who have something to add, to state your points of view and evidence!! You are both gentlemen and the discourse will allow others to see "two sides" to the story.
 
ed4copies said:
Yes, it IS off-topic, but that's GREAT!!

It's a debate--based on facts, and perception of the facts--and VERY healthy for education. I encourage both of you and any others who have something to add, to state your points of view and evidence!! You are both gentlemen and the discourse will allow others to see "two sides" to the story.
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Ed I am sorry for sort of crashing on your post and I know this is your vendor forum and things like this should not happen. But it is an important subject because of the safety factor involved also and that is why I wish you would have posted in another forum. The fact about tru-stone blanks can be a very valuable insight not only with the use of the Saw Stop saw but now with the Bosch saw. You read threads about people thinking of buying this type saw here so maybe more people would like to know these things.

The statement I highlighted in red that you made sums up the use of Sawstop and the people on both sides of the debate. This debate has been going on woodworking forums now for as long as the technology hit the market.


Being you opened this up it probably can be note worthy for other type blanks as well. We as pen turners are constantly buying blanks from all parts of the world. we may not stop to think what is in that blank or its wetness content when using a SS to cut into blanks. This is actually the first reference I have seen leading to this concern and I hope that others do see it. Have no idea how many members here have a SS and i would have to hope they operate them with care and diligence of the materials being cut. So in closing I thank you for bring to light this situation. :smile:
 
John I remember seeing on the SawStop sight years ago a prototype bandsaw with a blade brake so the idea that there are other machines the technology is applicable to is a good idea and a possibility on the future. A jointer would be another good one.

We all know that a patent must be vigorously defended or see it copied by everyone so I fully understand why SawStop/Bosch are going at it. As an electrician you understand how touching the blade can be sensed and used to start a brake of some kind. Unless you know of more than one way to do that the lawsuit may be quite valid. It doesn't seem to matter which side one takes there are greedy types everywhere.

Ed I respect John and his opinions and will take him on now and then. :)
 
John and Pete, I HOPE to see an atmosphere in "Exotics' corner of IAP" that ENCOURAGES "delving into" topics!! As penmakers, we all have some tools--anything we LEARN about those tools CAN make us safer in our shops!! Additionally, knowing the history of the industry gives members an idea WHY there are, or are NOT, new entries into the marketplace.

Speaking ONLY for myself, I ENJOY seeing two members have a respectful debate---each stating HIS point of view and allowing ME to evaluate and form a better-informed opinion.

THANKS to both of you!!!

And PLEASE keep reading our little corner of IAP and contributing your input!!

Ed
 
And that's exactly why my co-worker was considering that Bosch you mentioned!

jttheclockman said:
Now someone should explain to him how to check if the wood is too wet or green. If you saw in Bypass mode it will not set the brake off and will also give you an indication of a red light on the control module showing that it was a conductive piece of material. Those setups gets awful expensive because you are also buying a new blade with that saw.

Now all the rage is with the sawstop saw and you knew it was just a matter of time when someone else came on board to play also. The owners of sawstop were too arrogant and wanted the whole playing field but it backfired on them.

An alternative to that saw is Bosch ReaXX table saw. With this saw you have the same safety features but their breaking system is somewhat different that the blade disappears but there is no break to stop the blade mechanically. Thus you do not have to replace the blade and it takes just 60 seconds to reset. The cartridges are cheaper in the long run and the nice thing it is a job site saw. This is where many accidents happen.

Just another alternative and I believe there will be other players.
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Thanks Ed for letting us play. Pete, As I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but the idea to have a safer saw is not SS idea. Grounding or artificial creating a path to ground is technology that is used in many different arenas. Home securities, your dogs invisible fence system uses this technology. They just developed a system that does this. But Bosch has come along and to me improved on it. They did not use the same technology that SS uses. Their system works on the same principle that air bags work on and in their saw the blade is not stopped. It just drops below the table and saw is shut off. The cartridge mechanism is nothing like SS. I believe they have no case and you can not sue for an idea as we have hammered out on this very site many times. So I believe but again I am not a lawyer.

I do believe this system of Bosch is the way to go and this will be the one that gets copied. The savings is tremendous when you break it down. Being in the construction field for over 43 years the use of job site saws grew as more and more came into the market. I have witnessed these saws being misused and left unattended many times. Of course all the guards are broken off and there have been occasions that electricians had to replace chords and caps because of misuse. With the safety technique that each brings is a welcome insurance to contractors I am sure but it can get costly. With Bosch they do not loose blades. There are SS on job sites as well as SS has developed all grades of their saws.

I do not believe you will see saws such as Dewalt go to this because they prize themselves as the affordable home contractor saw and this system adds quite a few $$$ on the price tag. Maybe if the technology becomes more down to earth then who knows.
 
Having recently had an incident with my tabl saw, in which I lost at the cost of the end of my left index finger, I have a distinct perspective.
The accident was my fault. It was a cut I had done a millilion times. It happened because I was splitting a to short piece (9"), without an overhead gaurd and splitter. I did have my fence installed, and I was using a push stick to push and my hand to hold it against the fence.. Essentially the cut was finished before the piece was through the blade. The offcut piece was caught by the blade and thrown clear, and my finger slid in, taking it's place.
Could a saw stop have saved my finger, yes. But so too could the blade guard and splitter if I hadn't removed it.
Could I have still lost my finger with the Saw Stop, yes, If as mentioned above, I locked out the brake system.

My problem with Saw Stop is not the technologie, but the methods used to force the product into the market. The infamous lawsuit against Bosch involved the individual removing all the safety gaurds including the fence. If the indiviual involved (or myself) had had a Saw Stop, the accident still would have happened, if the system was locked out.

With this case as prescident, if the company mentioned above that runs their saw locked out, should have an accident. The owner of Saw Stop would be held liable, because he allowed the safety to be blocked.

Even after my accident, I am a firm believer that I am my best safety feature. My guard before, was removed because I was to lazy to put it on and off all the time. Its easier to just leave the guard off. I am back using the saw again, (it took a couple of months), but now the guard is on unless it has to be removed for the type of cut. And thos, I'm still a little leary about doing.

Just my little vent.
Play safe everyone.
 
I care not about marketing techniques, or the like - I think safety is a laudable goal.

Imagine if it were a seat belt that were being proposed...people would say that they've driven for years without needing one; but the one time that you do....

One very big plus now is that there's competition - any time that you bring in another competing product, both will get better and cheaper - and that's a good thing.
 
Darrin you make my point very well with your own incident. Sorry to hear of this. No matter how much safety design goes into a tool or product any injury is subjected to todays sue happy world. We do not take responsibility for our own actions. It is too easy to find that lawyer standing on the corner just waiting for their next case. This technology used on these saws is another one of those important safety devices but unless used properly it means nothing if you are going to ignore it.

As Andrew said the more companies develop this the price will decline and maybe we get to see something along the same lines on other tools and also maybe it will become more streamlined and affordable. Yes you will get those that say you can not put a $$$ on safety but it also must be used properly.

I remember when they made it mandatory to have shoulder harnesses in cars instead of the standard lap belt and people fought that.

As I mentioned before the story behind SS and their quest to get all saws to have this installed is a long winding road. Spin it anyway you want and debate it all you want, I too am glad to see another player on board and as stated their technology seems even better. Time will tell but do be safe in the work shop. Every tool in there has danger potentials.
 
Sorry to hear your finger was nipped and hope there is no lasting damage Darrin.

One thing that may not be clear to most is that to lock out the saw for a cut you have to turn a key and hold it for a few moments until the lights flash before the button is pulled to start the saw. It stays bypassed only until you press the button to turn off the saw. To bypass it again you have to go through the ritual each time. Kind of annoying if you are making a series of adjustments between cuts actually.

In almost 6 years of using my SawStop I've only used the bypass feature a few times. I just don't use soggy pressure treated wood very much. :) I do cut an occasional piece of Aluminium though so use the feature for that with the appropriate blade.

It doesn't seem to matter how safety is incorporated into the shop as there will always be those that don't want anything to do with it. Maybe if the rules applied to saws in Europe, electric motor brakes, short shafts so dado blades can't be used and better splitters and guards, SawStop would never have gotten started at all.
 
Oh by the way here is another player that has been around since 2011. Again the technology or principle is not new just developed in different ways. This one too does not destroy the blade which to me is a huge game changer. That is why sawstop has to try to defend their product. They spent so much money and have to try to recoup this.

Here is a player that can be adapted to many tools.

Whirlwind Tool Patents Pending Saw Safety Technology
 
Just to let you know Ed the Fools4peppers blanks with the metalflake in them will also set off the brake on a saw stop. I have a saw stop and I have triggered it 3 times. Once on the metal flake blank, once it nicked the aluminum on a taper jig I was using and once on my finger.

The cartridges are not cheap to replace, but they are replaced for free by Sawstop if it is trigger in an actual "save". You send the cartridge back to them and they can determine how it was set off. With a cheap blade it will rip 1-2 of the carbide teeth right off. But with a good blade, (I use Forrest Woodworker II) I can send them back in to Forrest and get them sharpened and repaired for about $35.

Even with the cost of the blade repairs, the two cartridges that I had to replace, I am still way ahead of what the one emergency room visit would have cost had this not worked.

Mike
 
Hello Mike

Not to pick on you but can you tell the audience how you nicked your finger and what unsafe act you were doing???

This is why I mentioned other blanks possibly can set that saw off too. We are constantly buying blanks from around the world and these blanks can be man made or nature. We as consumers may have no idea what their contents are.

By the way when one of those saws brakes on a blade weather there is physical damage or not there can be internal damage and that blade can become a projectile. That blade can now be bent or off balanced. If you use a very good quality blade send to have it looked at and or repaired but let them know what caused the concern or damage. Now they should run the entire gamut of tests any way but this covers you in any lawsuit to follow or at least you took the step. Document these things. You never know.
 
I've set mine off three times too but not involving my body parts.

One was with a tape measure. The blade was winding down and I was getting ready to readjust the miter stop and the tip of the tape measure touched the side of the blade. Another couple revolutions it would have been stopped. :( That was a near new Forrest blade so sent it back to Forrest with the Aluminium part of the brake attached. They checked it and replaced a few teeth and resharpened it. Not something I would trust to the local saw sharpener.

The other two were from forgetting to readjust the miter gauge fence after making some angled cuts. Doh!! Those were full power stops so I didn't try to fix the blades. I did give one to a shop teacher to show his students. The school had just replaced their table saws with the SawStops.

I don't consider the cost of a brake and blade to be all that expensive, when cutting a piece of walnut wrong for a project can be even more. When it saves some of my flesh it'll be priceless.
 
Curly said:
I've set mine off three times too but not involving my body parts.

One was with a tape measure. The blade was winding down and I was getting ready to readjust the miter stop and the tip of the tape measure touched the side of the blade. Another couple revolutions it would have been stopped. :( That was a near new Forrest blade so sent it back to Forrest with the Aluminium part of the brake attached. They checked it and replaced a few teeth and resharpened it. Not something I would trust to the local saw sharpener.

The other two were from forgetting to readjust the miter gauge fence after making some angled cuts. Doh!! Those were full power stops so I didn't try to fix the blades. I did give one to a shop teacher to show his students. The school had just replaced their table saws with the SawStops.

I don't consider the cost of a brake and blade to be all that expensive, when cutting a piece of walnut wrong for a project can be even more. When it saves some of my flesh it'll be priceless.
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Say what:smile:
 
A couple hundred dollars every 2 years lost in the costs of wood, sandpaper, finishes, glues, filters for masks, power, heat and so on, is diddly. For many it doesn't even come close to their beer consumption. :beer: :bananen_smilies046: Priceless for them if they hold up 2 fingers in the pub and the waitress only brings them one beer. :wink:
 
I understand what you mean Pete. Luckily I order my beer with my rigt hand.

I love the idea of the flesh sensing technologie, and if I replace my saw, it will be a model that has it. But for now, I have a very good cabinet hybrid saw that works perfectly, when I don't remove the safeties.

I just can't justify spending that much money to replace my perfectly working saw. Its the same, as I would not go and buy a new saw just to have a riving knife, which is much better and safer, than my standard spliter.
 
darrin1200 said:
I understand what you mean Pete. Luckily I order my beer with my rigt hand.

I love the idea of the flesh sensing technologie, and if I replace my saw, it will be a model that has it. But for now, I have a very good cabinet hybrid saw that works perfectly, when I don't remove the safeties.

I just can't justify spending that much money to replace my perfectly working saw. Its the same, as I would not go and buy a new saw just to have a riving knife, which is much better and safer, than my standard spliter.
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Darrin this is the thought by many out there. That is why this Whirlwind Tool Patents Pending Saw Safety Technology has the best upside. But it too is being challenged in courts and the founder has no funds to push on any more.

How sad it is that we must protect ourselves from ourselves these days. Who knows maybe in the near future all machines will have some sort of flesh detecting device on it or we can just get robots to program and do the work. We are pretty close there so there is hope. :smile:
 
John that one says on it's website it stops the blade in 1/8 of a second. My quick and dirty math has a blade turning over 8+ times from the moment it activates until the blade stops. If that is true there will be a lot of damage to the unfortunate bit of us that set off the brake. Now I realize his equipment and technology is not fully developed or the website number may be wrong but 8+ rotations wouldn't do much good would it?

Darrin I was fine with my previous saw as it was solid enough to handle a 10" dado set at full depth but when Marla came into my life and wanted to work in the shop I wanted to make sure she didn't have any accidents while she was working. Ladies don't get discounts at the manicurist if they have less than 10 fingers. :tongue:
 
I know it has been a few months since this thread was in full swing but I saw (no pun intended) in a Rona flyer today (a Canadian Borg store) that the new Bosch REAXX is available at $1999.00. Not a lot of info in the description except that it is 15 A, 4 HP, 3650 RPM. Sounds like they are using vacuum cleaner designers to write the specifications for the advertising. ;) For a comparison, the SawStop jobsite saw at Lee Valley is $1716.00.

Those are Canadian dollars for those that didn't notice my location. ;)
 
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