Denatured alcohol

[Papa Joe]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question. I see on many videos and post where denatured alcohol is used to clean pen blanks after turning and before finishing. A couple of days ago, I reached for my old can of denatured alcohol and found it had all evaporated. I ran down to my local big box store to get more and was told that it has been illegal in California for about 2 years.

First question is: is there anyway around this? can it me mail ordered?
Second question: what do those of you that have had this problem use as a substitute?

 

[carlmorrell]

I few years ago, I was surprised could not find it at Home Depot & Lowes, read about the cali ban. but I was able to find it at an Ace Hardware. I just ran out again and found that Lowes now sells it labelled as "camping fuel".

 

[Mike]

I use it often. I keep it in a small squeeze bottle with a metal spout I found on Amazon.
I found out on this forum that it cleans up epoxy if it is not set and it does a great job. Wish I had known that 50 years ago. Hope you can find some.

Mike

 

[Muddydogs]

Mineral spirits is what I use, white gas / camp stove fuel works as well.
Basically anything that isn't made to stain wood and evaporates quickly.

 

[monophoto]

I few years ago, I was surprised could not find it at Home Depot & Lowes, read about the cali ban. but I was able to find it at an Ace Hardware. I just ran out again and found that Lowes now sells it labelled as "camping fuel".

I noticed this the last time I bought some DNA - the label no longer referred to it as a solvent, but said it was a fuel (although it was stocked in the paint department next to the lacquer thinner, turpentine, and other solvents). I asked the clerk at the cash register if there was anything different about it, and she looked at me like I had two heads.

I suspect this is just a label change to get around local sales restrictions. I know our colleagues in the UK have a problem getting 'methyllated spirits" (their name for DNA).

[California banned the sale of DNA starting January 1, 2019]

I suppose you could also use Everclear from the liquor store.

Amazon appears to sell it, and I couldn't find any mention of not shipping it to California. That said, they do note that it's not returnable because of HazMat shipping issues, which suggests that shipping from Amazon could also be problematic - probably ground shipment only which means slow and expensive.

 

[Darios]

Basically anything that isn't made to stain wood and evaporates quickly.

Wonder if high percentage rubbing alcohol would also work.

 

[Muddydogs]

Wonder if high percentage rubbing alcohol would also work.

Yes it would.

 

[Hippie3180]

I noticed this the last time I bought some DNA - the label no longer referred to it as a solvent, but said it was a fuel (although it was stocked in the paint department next to the lacquer thinner, turpentine, and other solvents). I asked the clerk at the cash register if there was anything different about it, and she looked at me like I had two heads.
View attachment 358547

I suspect this is just a label change to get around local sales restrictions. I know our colleagues in the UK have a problem getting 'methyllated spirits" (their name for DNA).

I suppose you could also use Everclear from the liquor store.

Amazon appears to sell it, and I couldn't find any mention of not shipping it to California. That said, they do note that it's not returnable because of HazMat shipping issues, which suggests that shipping from Amazon could also be problematic - probably ground shipment only which means slow and expensive.

Our can looks just like this from Home Depot here in Texas. I think it's a workaround.

 

[Darios]

Yes it would

Yeah - I was just reading on that. Sounds like for light cleaning it would be better than dna. At least for pens according to this

 

[monophoto]

Wonder if high percentage rubbing alcohol would also work.

I raised this question a couple of years ago in a different context - can 91% isopropyl alcohol be used as the solvent for 'spirit dyes' in place of DNA'. No one seemed to know, so I tried it and it worked. Around here, pharmacies stock both 91% and 70% isopropyl on open shelves and there are no restrictions on buying it, and as far as I can tell, the only different is that the bottle of 70% contains more water and less alcohol.

My sense is that isopropyl is a bit more 'oily' than DNA, and that might be a reason to not use it for cleaning timber before applying a finish.

Some woods are naturally 'oily', and I've used acetone to remove that oil before gluing or applying a finish. I think that might be better that using isopropyl alcohol. You might have to let it sit a bit longer to make sure that the acetone completely evaporates. One advantage of acetone is that DNA does contain water, and as a result it will raise the grain on the timber, possibly requiring that you give it another quick pass with a high-grit abrasive. I don't think acetone will do that.

 

[wouldentu2?]

The camping fuel DNA can have high methanol content per its msds sheet. I use the green label DNA which has less.

 

[egnald]

Now you've done it. You opened the door to one of my favorite history lessons and rants about governmental overreach.

Living here in Nebraska it is easy for me to forget about the limitations on alcohol and other solvents and materials in other states like California. I have Acetone, Denatured Alcohol, MEK, Xylene, Tolulor, Naphtha, and Mineral Spirits in my workshop, bought from our local DYI store. I even have 190 Proof Everclear (95% pure ethanol) on my home bar. About the only things I used to use that were outlawed (mostly due to the Montreal Protocol - you know, the ozone thing) is 111 Trichloroethane and Carbon Tetrachloride.

Here is the history lesson:

Pre 1920, anybody could buy good old Ethanol (probably cut with 5-10% water) -- and it was cheap! But, since the government didn't want anybody to have cheap alcohol to drink during prohibition, they (the government) invented a law to force Ethanol to be De-Natured by adding some poison (usually Methanol) to it. Then in 1933 after prohibition ended they left the Methanol law in place because they didn't want any of us to drink anything that they didn't include a heavy Federal and State tax burden on.

In the past 5 years they started telling us the stuff is to dangerous for some folks to even acquire because it's poisonous - duh - because of the Methanol they require by law to be added to it. So essentially the government took something inexpensive, pure and safe, made it poisonous so it is bad for us, and now is taking it away from us because it is poisonous and bad for us. They need to open their eyes and give us our inexpensive and safe ethanol back.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now, and sorry for the rant. Fortunately, Nebraska remains one of the 36 states where you can still buy both 190 proof as well as 153 proof Everclear (Ethanol+water). They haven't taken away Denatured Alcohol or any of those other "dangerous" solvents either (yet anyway).

The high price of water -- I find it somewhat amusing that 95% Ethanol + 5% water (Everclear) sells for about $20/quart in the Liquor Store, but 95% Ethanol + 5% Methanol (Denatured Alcohol) sells for only $5 per quart in the Hardware Store. That 5% water is really expensive here in Nebraska.

Dave

 

[monophoto]

Gee, Dave - you remember back to 1920? You must be really old!

 

[egnald]

Gee, Dave - you remember back to 1920? You must be really old!

No, not me, but my Dad was a storyteller and a teenager during prohibition. He also survived the first wave landing on Omaha Beach on D-Day when he was 25. I sometimes wonder what historical events my kids will tie me to someday.

 

[ramaroodle]

Yes it would.

Agreed.

 

[Woodchipper]

I have used acetone, 70% rubbing (isopropyl ) alcohol and 91% isopropyl alcohol for other things. It's good two wipe oily blanks as cedar before finishing.
PGA= pure grain alcohol. Available at the liquor store.

 

[ramaroodle]

Assuming everybody knows it's the same stuff that goes in a Coleman camp stove.

 

[carlmorrell]

I have become a big fan of DNA. A few years ago, I was watching a youtube and they were using contact cleaner, I ended up going through a few cans of contact cleaner as a result. Realizing contact cleaner is Isopropyl alochol, after that I bought a refillable aerosol can I refill with alcohol, and pressurize with the air compressor. I use the stuff daily and cant count, how many times I have refilled it.

 

[ramaroodle]

I have become a big fan of DNA. A few years ago, I was watching a youtube and they were using contact cleaner, I ended up going through a few cans of contact cleaner as a result. Realizing contact cleaner is Isopropyl alochol, after that I bought a refillable aerosol can I refill with alcohol, and pressurize with the air compressor. I use the stuff daily and cant count, how many times I have refilled it.

Yes. Just make sure it's 90% OH not the rubbing alcohol you get at the drugstore.

 

[rixstix]

Assuming everybody knows it's the same stuff that goes in a Coleman camp stove.

Coleman campstove fuel is not DNA.

 

[KenB259]

Coleman campstove fuel is not DNA.

I bought this literally, an hour ago.

 

[rixstix]

I don't believe marine stove & coleman camp stove use is interchangeable.

 

[KenB259]

I don't believe marine stove & coleman camp stove use is interchangeable.

I always thought it was the same stuff. Oh well I don't use it as a fuel anyways.

 

[Woodchipper]

Isopropyl alcohol is alcohol which comes in 70% or 91%. Have both in the cabinet.

 

[egnald]

Almost all "white gas" or "camp fuel" is nearly 100% Naphtha . Naptha is a Petroleum Distillate. It evaporates faster than mineral spirits and is drier (i.e. less oily). I am pretty sure that Ronsonol and Zippo lighter fluids are primarily Naptha as well (or something similar that is considered a "Lite Petroleum Distillate".

The primary component of Red HEET (fuel de-icer) is Isopropyl alcohol. Yellow HEET is primarily Methanol. I think either would work for cleaning (de-oiling) wood before finishing, but Isopropyl I'm sure is a lot less toxic.

Dave

Of course, I have found that the chemicals in a lot of brand name things like HEET and Ronsonol do occasionally change. For example, even after 111 Trichloroethane was banned, I could still buy it in a product called "Energine Spot Remover". Engergine is still around, but today it is Naphtha (and it doesn't work nearly as good as the old stuff).

 

[ramaroodle]

We're getting off the subject. To be clear, Coleman makes stoves that use a variety of fuels. The fuel in an alcohol Coleman stove is essentially DNA. Even if it's not "exactly" the same formulation it is close enough to use as a DNA substitute. I am not advocating that you put DNA in your Coleman stove! I'm saying that WHATEVER is in Coleman alcohol fuel is a good substitute for DNA as is isopropyl and the camp stove product and many others. I've got a 15 year old can of Coleman alcohol stove fuel that I probably wouldn't put in a stove but it is a lifetime supply of "DNA-like" liquid. Don't really care what it is.

 

[ramaroodle]

I don't believe marine stove & coleman camp stove use is interchangeable.

That is not the issue. But whatever is in that container can be substituted for DNA used in woodworking.

 

[ramaroodle]

Isopropyl alcohol is alcohol which comes in 70% or 91%. Have both in the cabinet.

the 71% is rubbing alcohol. The 91% is the solvent.

 

[moke]

So ramaroodle, I have been buying both DNA and Naptha for years. I wipe down projects after sanding and before finiahing to see what they look like wet. Imperfections in sanding, etc. I use dna for Cleaning purposes around the shop....acoording to what has been said, I could just use one or the other? If NAPTHA is less oily....just that?

 

[rherrell]

DNA and Isopropyl Alcohol have a lot of water in them so if you are using a CA finish be sure the blank is COMPLETELY dry before applying.

 

[Woodchipper]

Both 70% and 91% can be used as a solvent; 70% just has more water. I used 90%. DNA and acetone as a solvent when I built custom fishing rods.

 

[Sylvanite]

• Methanol (or methyl alcohol) - CH3OH, a.k.a "wood alcohol" is toxic.
• Ethanol (or ethyl alcohol) - C2H5OH, a.k.a. "grain alcohol" is used in alcoholic beverages.
• Propanol, Isopropanol (or isopropyl alcohol) - C3H7OH, a.k.a. "rubbing alcohol" is used as a contact antibacterial and as a cleaning solvent.
• Denatured alcohol (DNA) is primarily ethanol with some methanol to render it undrinkable and therefore not subject to taxation. It is primarily used as fuel in alcohol stoves but also as a degreasing agent by many penturners.
• Methylated spirits (MS) is very similar to denatured alcohol but may use a different methylating agent than methanol.
• White Gas - a.k.a. "Coleman fuel" is basically low-octane unleaded gasoline without any of the normal gasoline additives. It is primarily used as a fuel in camp stoves.
• Acetone - C3H6O is a ketone (not alcohol) solvent. It is a very volatile degreaser. Penturners typically know it as "CA glue debonder".

DNA and Isopropyl Alcohol have a lot of water in them so if you are using a CA finish be sure the blank is COMPLETELY dry before applying.

Rick is absolutely right. Pure ethanol will absorb water out of the air (which is why gasoline has detergent additives and why boaters buy ethanol-free gasoline). DNA and isopropyl alcohol typically contain 5% to 40% water. When used to clean a pen barrel before finishing, it will leave moisture behind. If a CA glue finish is applied before that moisture evaporates, then the finish may develop cloudy patches known as "blush".

That is why I stopped using DNA to clean my wood pen barrels and switched to acetone instead. Acetone strips oil from wood even better than alcohol; it dries almost instantly; and it does not cause blush.

I hope that helps,
Eric

 

[Mike]

Lots of info here, some very good.
I laughed when I bought PC board cleaner in a spray can from Radio Shack back in the day. It was Freon TF. Funny thing was it had a disclaimer saying it contained no fluorocarbon propellants. Was early in the global warming/greenhouse panic.
This is a very humid day for Albuquerque and it is 35%RH. I use DNA and it dries very quickly. Have never had it cause issues with my CA finishes. I lived in Dallas/Fort Worth in my younger days. Sure don't miss that heat and humidity. Houston is worse.

Mike

 

[Bope]

There are many formulations for DNA. Here is a link to the CFR describing DNA. One of the cheapest and most popular in the big box stores is a formulations containing a lot of methanol. I have moved to using this which does not contain methanol, they also have a 200 proof version. This does contain a chemical that makes you nauseous. It is a good reminder to be wearing gloves and a respirator when spraying your shellac unlike methanol with will poison you over time with no warning.

 

[Aurelius]

There are many formulations for DNA. Here is a link to the CFR describing DNA. One of the cheapest and most popular in the big box stores is a formulations containing a lot of methanol. I have moved to using this which does not contain methanol, they also have a 200 proof version. This does contain a chemical that makes you nauseous. It is a good reminder to be wearing gloves and a respirator when spraying your shellac unlike methanol with will poison you over time with no warning.

Splitting hairs, I realize, but technically it's 190 proof. Ethanol is hydroscopic, meaning it can pull moisture out f the air. For anything above 190 proof, this reaction is exothermic enough to spontaneously combust.

 

[Bope]

At an auto-ingition temp ~689F the exothermic formation of the aziotrope is not going to cause ethanol to spontaneously ignite. An ignition source will be needed.

 

[ramaroodle]

 

[Papa Joe]

Wow! Lots of info here. I did manage to buy a quart of DNA sold as fuel from Amazon. Haven't used it yet.
Thanks to all who responded to my post.

 

[Ray-CA]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question. I see on many videos and post where denatured alcohol is used to clean pen blanks after turning and before finishing. A couple of days ago, I reached for my old can of denatured alcohol and found it had all evaporated. I ran down to my local big box store to get more and was told that it has been illegal in California for about 2 years.

First question is: is there anyway around this? can it me mail ordered?
Second question: what do those of you that have had this problem use as a substitute?

I buy 99% isopropyl alcohol at the grocery store and use that.

Ray

 

[ramaroodle]

Wow! Lots of info here. I did manage to buy a quart of DNA sold as fuel from Amazon. Haven't used it yet.
Thanks to all who responded to my post.

Lol. More like WAY too much information.