Danger Will Robinson... Buffers?

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LagniappeRob

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In another thread, and I've seen it a couple times recently on here it's been stated that the buffer "is *THE* most dangerous shop tool you could ever have".

I tried to do some research, but can't find stats for the buffer.

In PM's top 5 most dangerous, they show:
Table Saw: 60,000 accidents/year (150+/day) - 3,000 amputations!

Nail Guns - 42,000 in 2005

Chain Saw - > 32,000/year (with an avg 110 stitches!!)

Ladders - 140,000/year (one every 3 3/4 minutes)

Circular Saw - 30% of all reported saw injuries



So, what's the injury rate on the buffer? Why is it more dangerous than any of the above? I really am curious (it's my nature)...
 
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My google-fu did turn up similar threads but all seemed to be around knife making. Seems knife making would be inherently dangerous regardless...

But I've heard this before... so where does it come from?
 
Simple.

If you are buffing something and you do not hold it right it *WILL* get pulled out of your hands and you now have a projectile in the shop. Edges need not be sharp to do nasty cuts on your body. The speed of the object being thrown is quite insanely high and there is impact force to deal with as well.

EDIT by Jeff: Incorrect graphic deleted.
 
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Knife Magazine: Secrets to Career Longevity as a Knifemaker

Potentially one of the most hazardous machines to operate is the buffer.
...
An 8-inch wheel spinning at 3,450 rpm can snatch a blade from your hands and throw it 10 feet in about 0.08 seconds. That's 8/100 of one second.
Click to expand...

From that a pen can easily be thrown into your body and embed quite deep somewhere, i.e. chest, leg, neck, etc.
 
I'm looking for something a little more than that to be considered " *THE* most dangerous".
Also you say if held wrong, it " *WILL* " pulled out. Too many absolutes there. The world doesn't work on absolutes. They way that was put, means no one every held something wrong and it didn't get yanked out of their hands. That's simply not true. I have and it did not go flying.


I was looking for something more along the lines of what kovalcik posted (Thanks btw - interesting page).
Specifically the section on that page: The Most Dangerous Power Tools Statistically
HOWEVER, the tool group – after "manual workshop tools (hammers, utility knives, chisels etc…)" and "Misc. workshop tools" – that caused the most health care EXPENSE was Bench or Table Saws, at around $2 billion.
Click to expand...

So pretty much as I suspected... the buffer being *THE* most dangerous is simply a myth.
 
edstreet said:
Knife Magazine: Secrets to Career Longevity as a Knifemaker

Potentially one of the most hazardous machines to operate is the buffer.
...
An 8-inch wheel spinning at 3,450 rpm can snatch a blade from your hands and throw it 10 feet in about 0.08 seconds. That's 8/100 of one second.
Click to expand...

From that a pen can easily be thrown into your body and embed quite deep somewhere, i.e. chest, leg, neck, etc.
Click to expand...

CAN = MAY not WILL.

A train CAN come off the track and run you over. Does that make it " *THE* most dangerous form of transportation " ? Statistically, no in terms of injuries, costs, likelyhood, or any other means of actually quantifying it.
 
Every tool in your shop has the potental to be the most dangerous tool. The most dangerous tool that every shop has is the tool the you respect the least. Getting lax with any tool is a recipe for an injury.

I would think what Rob posted is probably true that a table or bench top saw causes the most damage dollar wise, as an accident here and you are missing fingers or worse. But how many injuries happen with the simplest of tools never makes it to an ER. I would guess, and this is only a guess that there are many more smashed fingers, punctures, cuts, etc that happen because people think it's only a hammer, it's only a screw driver it's only a ladder.

Mike
 
Some times the danger arises out of complacency wrt safety when operating shop tools. The buffer is a prime candidate for this because it has no blade. The mind may just go a little more relaxed as compared to , for example, a table saw blade. So that potentially COULD result in an individual being much more safety conscious at the table saw than at the buffing station.

(Besides, it is sometimes fun to see all those little missiles flying all over the place.:eek::bulgy-eyes::rain:)
 
I believe some of that comes from people putting buffing wheels on a bench grinder thinking they now have a buffer. They don't take the shroud, guard or tool rest off leaving them open for all kinds of problems when the buffing wheel catches the piece.
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
The most dangerous tool in the shop is and always will be the human brain and all other tools come in second when used by a non working brain.
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The most dangerous tool in my shop has always been and always be ME..that may be simplifying too much to some but if you don't understand how to use a machine safely, learn and then use.
 
The lathe can be a nasty bit of machinery. Not only can it catch loose clothing, but if working the right piece not only can you lose a finger, but have portions ripped from your hand. Just a bit harder to attach a torn finger than a cut one.

My most offending hand tool has to be a standard chisel. While cutting out recesses for hinges and such, I have imbedded more chisels in my fingers and hands than I care to count.

Also, knife and sword making is inherently hazardous. I am not a fan of working a traditional furnace, but I do love hammering out a sword. I wish I had taken pictures of a gladius I made back in High School. Tried a traditional Katana once, I didn't have the patience. Far too much hammering and heating. Far more than a gladius.
 
I have a 2 hp professional buffer in my shop and I use it for at least a full hour every day buffing chambers and chamber parts and have been for a couple of years. I would certainly not consider it even in the top 10 dangerous tools in my shop. Sure, I have lost control of a piece and had it thrown but never an injury other than to the object I was buffing. Now, for a knife shop, I can certainly see this being an issue. I have never heard that the buffer was the most dangerous tool in any shop other than a knife shop and find it laughable at best for penmaking or general shop use.
 
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edstreet said:
Simple.

If you are buffing something and you do not hold it right it *WILL* get pulled out of your hands and you now have a projectile in the shop. Edges need not be sharp to do nasty cuts on your body. The speed of the object being thrown is quite insanely high and there is impact force to deal with as well.

EDIT by Jeff: Incorrect graphic deleted.

In my mind, the wheel rotation on the right hand wheel is wrong! If you buff on top, the wheel MUST rotate away from you.

Tom
Click to expand...
 
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TomW said:
edstreet said:
Simple.

If you are buffing something and you do not hold it right it *WILL* get pulled out of your hands and you now have a projectile in the shop. Edges need not be sharp to do nasty cuts on your body. The speed of the object being thrown is quite insanely high and there is impact force to deal with as well.


EDIT by Jeff: Incorrect graphic deleted.

In my mind, the wheel rotation on the right hand wheel is wrong! If you buff on top, the wheel MUST rotate away from you.

Tom
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Amazing! We have a winner here. One person who is paying attention and pointing out a very obvious flaw is very good any day of the week.

How To Buff And Polish - Caswell Inc

The image should look like this. There was some goofs made when whomever did the original drawing that I posted.
image055.jpg


As for those downplaying the safety factor issue I urge everyone to read the link that I posted earlier and see the pictures and understand what he did.
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Safety should always be the number one priority in a shop, period. Unfortunately, that is not always the case with some people, including myself. Thinking of safety after the fact is obviously too late and learning the hard way in this type of environment can be a life changing experience. We all know this, but yet....
 
My point was "the most dangerous" is a superlative - by definition, it must be "greater than any other possible degree of the given descriptor" to be correct. Without some way to back up that it is in fact more than every other shop tool, the statement is at best speculative and at worst just plain wrong.

In this case, we found little to no quantitative evidence that the buffer is more dangerous than other tools. But we have found some that indicates it is not. So as we know it, the superlative "most" should not be added, at least not without some form of qualifier like "in my opinion, the buffer is the most dangerous". In a court, this would get an "assumes facts not in evidence" objection. And generally for opinions to be valid, the presenter of the opinion has to be accepted as an expert in the matter by the court.


Is the buffer dangerous? Sure, just as any object with movement and mass that has the ability to grab is dangerous. But I personally don't see it as "the most dangerous". This wasn't the 1st time I've heard it... I chalk it up to another one of those 'old wive's tales' that gets passed on and not subjected to critical thinking.
 
No, in my opinion a buffer is not the most dangerous tool in a shop but, it can be if that is the tool an individual looses his or her finger(s) on. In my case it's definitely not.... I don't own one. :biggrin:
 
LagniappeRob said:
My point was "the most dangerous" is a superlative - by definition, it must be "greater than any other possible degree of the given descriptor" to be correct. Without some way to back up that it is in fact more than every other shop tool, the statement is at best speculative and at worst just plain wrong.

In this case, we found little to no quantitative evidence that the buffer is more dangerous than other tools. But we have found some that indicates it is not. So as we know it, the superlative "most" should not be added, at least not without some form of qualifier like "in my opinion, the buffer is the most dangerous". In a court, this would get an "assumes facts not in evidence" objection. And generally for opinions to be valid, the presenter of the opinion has to be accepted as an expert in the matter by the court.


Is the buffer dangerous? Sure, just as any object with movement and mass that has the ability to grab is dangerous. But I personally don't see it as "the most dangerous". This wasn't the 1st time I've heard it... I chalk it up to another one of those 'old wive's tales' that gets passed on and not subjected to critical thinking.
Click to expand...


You make a very good interesting point and I do agree with you. ... However I would like to inject some aspect which you may not have considered at all.

As we saw from a moderators post on this thread ..

MesquiteMan said:
I have a 2 hp professional buffer in my shop and I use it for at least a full hour every day buffing chambers and chamber parts and have been for a couple of years. I would certainly not consider it even in the top 10 dangerous tools in my shop. Sure, I have lost control of a piece and had it thrown but never an injury other than to the object I was buffing. Now, for a knife shop, I can certainly see this being an issue. I have never heard that the buffer was the most dangerous tool in any shop other than a knife shop and find it laughable at best for penmaking or general shop use.
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Two approaches to this.

1) replace 'buffer' with 'alcohol' and 'shop' with 'vehicle' and we quickly see we are dealing with the classic case of 'oh I drink and drive every day and nothing bad has happened to me yet therefore it's very much safe to do and you are grossly wrong for saying its bad.'. From many standpoints this is very bad, not just from liability but this leads into the second approach.

2) Down playing is the problem with this whole approach. To many of us who are mindful of how we approach equipment and what we do there is a tendency to take things for granted, i.e. method and mannerism. To the unskilled user this can be very lethal in many cases. When you down play dangers they do tend to creep up and rear it's ugly head often. Plain and simple accidents are no accident. They are more of a cascade reaction of failures.

Many cases has happened, many close calls and the like. I did some quick looking last night and was unable to find most of the photo's of buffer injuries that I have seen before. Now granted there are other equipment in the shop that can do nasty damages as well, i.e. bandsaw is responsible for most amputations. However downplaying potential, esp with misuse, is a recipe for disaster.

My original statement of 'the most dangerous' is also a reflection of down played potential, ignored risk as well as damage that can be caused from not just knives but any object, esp knowing that object is traveling over 90 miles per hour when it is pulled from your hand because you screwed up. Having seen in person, images and the like of many objects buried in body parts, walls, ceilings, windows and doors I can say you do not want to be on the receiving end of this.
 
Photo of individual injuries don't make it "the most dangerous" It shows it to be "dangerous" - no superlative. By up-playing the buffer, you may be downplaying other tools that are statistically more dangerous. I'm sure I can pull up a few table saw injuries too. It doesn't prove anything...

As for the mod post. Did you read the last line you quoted? He calls referring the buffer in a pen making or general shop the most dangerous as "laughable".

I get your point that it's not as safe as some people assume... however, equating it to drinking and driving is a bit of a stretch.
 
From some of the prevous posts I can see why the buffer in a knife makers shop may be more dangerous than in most wood shops, at least mine.

Ed had the qoute:

"Potentially one of the most hazardous machines to operate is the buffer.
...
An 8-inch wheel spinning at 3,450 rpm can snatch a blade from your hands and throw it 10 feet in about 0.08 seconds. That's 8/100 of one second."

My buffer runs 1,720 rpm, in my opinion 3,450 rpm is too fast for a buffer. Beall also suggests the 1720 rpm:
Quote from Beall's website
"The Wood Buff is designed to be used with a 1/3 hp or more, 1725 motor. This should be sufficient for most buffing tasks; larger items or a more vigorous buffing style may call for 1/2 hp. The 3,000 r.p.m. of most grinder motors will be too fast for the 8" wheels sold with the Wood Buff but would work well for buffing with our smaller 4" Wheels or Bowl Buffs. When you face the shaft end of the motor, the wheel should rotate counter-clockwise in order for the Wood Buff to work properly."
 
The way I rate a tools danger rating is by the number of things I need to think about to operate it safely. For the buffer, aside from normal shop etiquette (no loose clothing, eye/face protection, etc.) The buffer safety list is basically to buff on the part of the wheel that won't throw stuff at you.

This as opposed to the table saw: Keep hands away from blade, have splitter in place, blade at proper height, don't let stuff float between the blade and the fence, don't use the miter gauge and fence at the same time on through cuts, use push stick, fence locked down, and so on.

By my standard the table saw is much more dangerous than the buffer.
 
Back in my 1st responder days, I worked a couple chain saw call outs including 1 that had to be air ambulanced because he wasn't expected to make the drive otherwise. They weren't fun... Fortunately I never had to work a table saw scene. The 30% resulting in amputations figure from yesterday's link is bit of a shocker. Not something I'd want to see. The buffer isn't even on my personal top 5 list.
 
BTW, Ed, I was not posting as a moderator. Not sure why it even needed to be mentioned that I am a moderator as it had no bearing on what or why I posted. I posted as an individual member.
 
In critical thinking, it's called an "appeal to authority". Appeals to authority are always considered deductively fallacious meaning just someone is an authority (of some type) does not make a statement by them to be logically correct. Fallacious does not mean false. It means that it just does not prove it. X is not proved because the authority said so. Additional evidence is needed.
 
LagniappeRob said:
In critical thinking, it's called an "appeal to authority". Appeals to authority are always considered deductively fallacious meaning just someone is an authority (of some type) does not make a statement by them to be logically correct. Fallacious does not mean false. It means that it just does not prove it. X is not proved because the authority said so. Additional evidence is needed.
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Absolutely not. I was just pointing out that the moderator tag next to the name was quite shocking for the statement received. If it was indeed personal and not as a moderator then that moderator tag should not be in the posting. Since the post itself was of a serious downgrade in safety standards that opens up to some serious liability issues.

That aside this will be my last post on this thread as it is crystal clear the intent is to bash rather than educate and help others. Afterall the safety factors that has been mentioned several times has always been down played and rhetoric harping on petty phrasing has been the key focus throughout this thread.
 
Bashing? Really? I never thought you to be one so thin skinned. Words mean things. Using them incorrectly, improperly or haphazardly can lead to miscommunication or worse.

You (and others elsewhere) have stated it as "THE MOST DANGEROUS". I was asking for you to back up your claim. You couldn't in any type of critical manner. No one is downplaying anything. It's been stated repeatedly that it is A dangerous tool, however, few believe it to be "THE MOST" dangerous tool. ALL tools should be used in a manner consistent with proper and safe utilization.

And please show some (any?) precedence to a forum post anywhere discussing safety "open(ing) up to some serious liability issues". I call shenanigans! Forums posts are not "safety standards" in any way, shape or form. (rolls eyes)
 
I can't post with any authority on any of the statements made so far, but if you have a machine in your shop, there is a potential for danger and injury.
I've taken a bowl off the lathe into my face, a wake up call that now if the lathe is running, my face shield is in place... I've nicked my thumb on the band saw.. a wake up call to keep my mind on the task at hand and keep my hands clear of the band saw blade.... I've had a board kick back on the table saw and raised the level of my speaking voice a few octaves for a little while... a wake up call to not stand behind the blade... I've had a drill bit catch in a piece of wood twist in my hand and tear the skin trying to hold the piece with my hand while drilling... a wake up call to use a proper clamp or vise when drilling.... I've had a phillips screwdriver slip and puncture the palm of my hand... a wake up call, but I still tend to hold my mills when I'm setting the screws in the base plates... but so far the worst I've down with my buffing systems (I don't have a dedicated buffer, I use a homemade Bealle system on my little lathe or the Don Pencil system on the bigger lathe) is the fuzz off the buffing wheels make me sneeze - should wear a mask - and I've gotten under the wheels and had the piece snatched out of my hand and thrown across the shop... usually under something that I have to get down on my knees or belly to retrieve and usually ruins the piece.

Point is, any tool in the shop can do some damage if you don't engage the brain and keep it fully engaged at all times. All that said, wood turning is still the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. :biggrin::biggrin:
 
TellicoTurning said:
Point is, any tool in the shop can do some damage if you don't engage the brain and keep it fully engaged at all times. All that said, wood turning is still the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. :biggrin::biggrin:
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Well said. IMHO, the most dangerous tool is the one not used properly and that injured you in a way that caused you to stop makin' shavings.:frown:
 
Hold on for one minute guys, let me go quickly make some popcorn and grab something to drink :biggrin:

Seriously.... there's no sense in this back and forth.... the main thing is, is that we all know and practice safety in our shops or be prepared to pay the consequences.
 
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