Cutting small grooves?

[jrista]

So, what is the best way/tool to cut small grooves in your pens? I have several tools, none of which really seem to do the job well. I have a full set of EWT tools, including the diamond detailer, however those carbide bits have rounded tips rather than pointed. Otherwise, I'd use that, and I think it would be perfect. I have a skew, but it doesn't really cut a proper "V" shape, given one side is strait and the other at an angle... I've tried using a spindle and detail gouge, but I always end up with grooves that are too large. I have some burning wire, but I don't necessarily always want to burn.

So, is there a special tool out there that will cut an optimal v-groove?

Thanks!

 

[Woodchipper]

Go to Harbor Freight or a hardware store if HF isn't close, get a cheap screwdriver and grind it to your liking. I have used a screwdriver held so the edge does the cutting.

 

[Fred Bruche]

What you are looking for is called a detail point/pyramid tool, several options are available.

 

[monophoto]

Make your own detailing tool from an old Allen wrench - cut the 'L' off to create a strait section, and then grind one end to produce a chisel profile. The size of the wrench determines the width of the cut., so you have a range of options to choose from. When I did this, I cut the wrench scrap fairly short, but then epoxied it in a hole drilled in the end of a length of mild-steel rod - that way, the tool shank is mainly the mild steel rod, with the bit of Allen wrench serving only as a cutter at the end.

 

[crokett]

You can buy diamond shaped or triangle carbide bits that come to a point. I have one, somewhere.

 

[jrista]

Go to Harbor Freight or a hardware store if HF isn't close, get a cheap screwdriver and grind it to your liking. I have used a screwdriver held so the edge does the cutting.

Hmm, hadn't thought of that...but, its kind of genius.

 

[magpens]

To get a narrow, shallow groove I use a parting tool, similar to this one on Amazon :

Wood Rotary Turning Tool Cutter Wood Parting Tool Lathe Chisel 65Mn Steel Blade : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

Wood Rotary Turning Tool Cutter Wood Parting Tool Lathe Chisel 65Mn Steel Blade : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

To get a narrower groove I grind a bit off the side.

But this tool is a lot more expensive than a screwdriver (suggested above) . . never thought of using a screwdriver !!

 

[jttheclockman]

A skew make any groove you want. You are in control. Each side can be the exact same. Learn to use this tool. Best tool in the turning arsenal.

 

[duncsuss]

As John says, you can use a skew. They cut the cleanest V grooves (you make each side as a separate cut.)

Or there are spear-point scrapers, pyramid tools, detailers - but these are all scrapers and do not make the clean cut that a skew can make.

 

[howsitwork]

Hans Weissflog ( https://kirstenmuensterprojects.com/pages/hans-weissflog ) , uses the very small needle or detail files which he grinds the teeth off and sharpens the ends . He is only cutting grooves about 1 to 2 mm deep but that should be enough surely for you?

You will need support very close to the cutting edge for strength.

Or the Bill Jones inspired three cornered point tool. Now available from crown tools amongst others but I made my own years back from round drill rod. Bill used old triangular files but was using a treadle or belt driven lathe( i. his later years)

 

[jrista]

Hans Weissflog ( https://kirstenmuensterprojects.com/pages/hans-weissflog ) , uses the very small needle or detail files which he grinds the teeth off and sharpens the ends . He is only cutting grooves about 1 to 2 mm deep but that should be enough surely for you?

You will need support very close to the cutting edge for strength.

Or the Bill Jones inspired three cornered point tool. Now available from crown tools amongst others but I made my own years back from round drill rod. Bill used old triangular files but was using a treadle or belt driven lathe( i. his later years)

Yeah, I will be cutting shallow grooves in pens, so I don't need something large. I don't think I could use a skew to do v-cuts, as I just am not working with that much material. I haven't heard of a three cornered point tool, so I'll have to look that up.

So far, the screwdriver idea is at the top of the list, I'm going to be giving that a try here. I have some extra flat head screwdrivers I don't use, so I'm going to try and repurpose one of those.

 

[monophoto]

Jon

Mike Peace has a series of YouTube videos on making lathe tools in which he specifically addresses the point tool.

A point tool can have whatever diameter you want. The key ingredient is high-speed steel rod stock - Mike talks about buying it on-line, and there are lots of places that sell it in a variety of diameters. But I sense that your application calls for a tool that can cut a very narrow groove, which implies that you want a rather small diameter tool So something to think about is repurposing an old drill bit. If you don't have some old dull bits in your shop, you can probably find a bunch at a garage sale. You want solid rod, so you would need a bit that has a shank that is long enough to cut off the flute and still leave you with enough material.. At the same time, because the tool has a narrow diameter so that it can cut a narrow groove, you will want to have your tool rest very close to the workpiece in order to minimize any vibration that might occur. Unlike tools like bowl gouges where you need a long handle to counteract the forces created when hogging out a lot of material, detail tools typically have short shanks and handles.

A point tool is nothing more than a round rod with three flat faces ground on the end. These flats are spaced 120 degrees around the rod. When I made mine, I made a jig by cutting an scrap of wood to create an equilateral triangle, and then drilled a hole through the exact center that is a snug fit for the tool rod so that when you insert the tool through the hole, the jig is firmly held on the steel and doesn't rotate. To grind the faces, insert the rod through the hole in the jig, and place one edge of the triangular jig on the grinder platform and grind a face. Then without rotating the rod in the jig, rotate the entire jig so that a different edge in on the platform, and grind a second face. Then repeat for the third face.. After the initial grinding, the tool is sharpened (as needed) by gently wiping a diamond paddle against each of the flats.

 

[penicillin]

Can @jrista explain the problem with using a skew chisel? They are almost purpose-designed to do what he wants. With a light touch, he can make very fine and shallow v-cuts. The skew must be sharp, of course.

 

[Stuart Robertson]

So, what is the best way/tool to cut small grooves in your pens? I have several tools, none of which really seem to do the job well. I have a full set of EWT tools, including the diamond detailer, however those carbide bits have rounded tips rather than pointed. Otherwise, I'd use that, and I think it would be perfect. I have a skew, but it doesn't really cut a proper "V" shape, given one side is strait and the other at an angle... I've tried using a spindle and detail gouge, but I always end up with grooves that are too large. I have some burning wire, but I don't necessarily always want to burn.

So, is there a special tool out there that will cut an optimal v-groove?

Thanks!

You can make very fine clean v grooves with a skew,but you need someone to show you how. It'll be upright,long point down,and a small one,and a delicate touch.Easy to have a mess if you don't know how.
Have a look at Cyndy Drozda doing delicate work on youtube.
Pyramid tool made from screwdriver would work but is a scraper so must be sharp and used lightly with correct orientation to the work.

 

[Woodchipper]

Hmm, hadn't thought of that...but, its kind of genius.

Man, I have ideas I haven't even thought of! Good turning!

 

[Wmcullen]

Great video. Thanks.

Mike Peace has a series of YouTube videos on making lathe tools in which he specifically addresses the point tool.

I also found an interesting one about grinding a phillips head into a point tool. I saw several others talking about repurposing screwdrivers as lathe tools.

Question: assuming the screwdrivers are not HSS, does that only mean the edge will not hold as long? Are there any other considerations when using non HSS as lathe tools?

 

[egnald]

Hi Jon,

I hope you and yours were not affected by the horrible fire a couple of days ago. What a sad thing!
For a carbide solution, I buy the sharp point version of the Easy Wood Tools Easy Start Detailer Diamond from AZ Carbide. Their part number is DIA10-S. I don't know the single unit price because I buy them in a 10-pack. I would guess they are somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 each.

Regards,
Dave

 

[monophoto]

Question: assuming the screwdrivers are not HSS, does that only mean the edge will not hold as long? Are there any other considerations when using non HSS as lathe tools?

That's been my experience.

I have several shop-made skews - one originated as a 1/4" flat-blade screwdriver. I use it quite a bit for detailed work - yes, it does have to be sharpened frequently, but that's really only a matter of a few wipes with a diamond card so it's not a big deal.

 

[jrista]

Hi Jon,

I hope you and yours were not affected by the horrible fire a couple of days ago. What a sad thing!
For a carbide solution, I buy the sharp point version of the Easy Wood Tools Easy Start Detailer Diamond from AZ Carbide. Their part number is DIA10-S. I don't know the single unit price because I buy them in a 10-pack. I would guess they are somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 each.

Regards,
Dave

I live a bit south of Denver, so I was not affected by the fires. They were farther north. Terrible, though...truly sad, to lose your home at any time of year, but to lose it when its freezing cold. That's just a slap in the face on top of it all. Sounds like it was due to downed power lines from the high winds (which are actually very common here in Colorado!)...that we still have above ground power lines anywhere that could cause something like this baffles me...


Thank you for the part number. I found the 10 pack, which is a really good deal. I think I'll pick up some of those, as I think they will do exactly what I am looking for.

 

[Wmcullen]

So, is there a special tool out there that will cut an optimal v-groove?

Jon- Thanks for starting this conversation.
All the great responses provided a fun project :
I decided to grind an old screwdriver into a detail point.

It didn't take long using a lot of the above info as a guide.

In fact, I fell backwards into a cleaver solution. The handle happened to be a hexagon, which helped me grind the three necessary sides at 120 degrees to form the "pyramid."

I marked every other face of the handle in sharpie and used them as guides when grinding.

Because it's not HSS I'll probably only use it for small grooves in pens.
It cuts deftly and cost $0.... lots to like.

This new tool is like Simon and Garfunkle...
...feelin' groovy!
Thanks all!
Cullen

 

[egnald]

Jon- Thanks for starting this conversation.
All the great responses provided a fun project :
I decided to grind an old screwdriver into a detail point.
View attachment 324334
It didn't take long using a lot of the above info as a guide.
View attachment 324335
In fact, I fell backwards into a cleaver solution. The handle happened to be a hexagon, which helped me grind the three necessary sides at 120 degrees to form the "pyramid."
View attachment 324336
I marked every other face of the handle in sharpie and used them as guides when grinding.
View attachment 324338
Because it's not HSS I'll probably only use it for small grooves in pens.
It cuts deftly and cost $0.... lots to like.

View attachment 324337
This new tool is like Simon and Garfunkle...
...feelin' groovy!
Thanks all!
Cullen

Pretty Cool Tool! - Dave

 

[sorcerertd]

I typically use a parting tool sideways. Same principle as the diamond point carbide blade, but certainly won't hold an edge and doesn't always leave a clean cut. I usually just score the barrel lightly and wire burn those anyway. A skew will definitely do the trick, but it takes a very delicate touch. Practice on some scraps, then practice some more. I'm still working out problems between the delicate touch type of cuts and my level of patience. Might be a while on that, though.

 

[Stuart Robertson]

I typically use a parting tool sideways. Same principle as the diamond point carbide blade, but certainly won't hold an edge and doesn't always leave a clean cut. I usually just score the barrel lightly and wire burn those anyway. A skew will definitely do the trick, but it takes a very delicate touch. Practice on some scraps, then practice some more. I'm still working out problems between the delicate touch type of cuts and my level of patience. Might be a while on that, though.

In that orientation it's scraping,to have any hope of a clean cut you might want it above centre and a slightly downward presentation with a burr on the upward edge.
Not critical so critical if you're wire burning.
There's two excellent videos, one by Allan Batty and the other by Alan Lacer on YT. These are specifically about skew use.
Cheers

 

[jrista]

Jon- Thanks for starting this conversation.
All the great responses provided a fun project :
I decided to grind an old screwdriver into a detail point.
View attachment 324334
It didn't take long using a lot of the above info as a guide.
View attachment 324335
In fact, I fell backwards into a cleaver solution. The handle happened to be a hexagon, which helped me grind the three necessary sides at 120 degrees to form the "pyramid."
View attachment 324336
I marked every other face of the handle in sharpie and used them as guides when grinding.
View attachment 324338
Because it's not HSS I'll probably only use it for small grooves in pens.
It cuts deftly and cost $0.... lots to like.

View attachment 324337
This new tool is like Simon and Garfunkle...
...feelin' groovy!
Thanks all!
Cullen

This is really awesome. Those are exactly the kind of simple grooves want to make. I will give this a try and see how it goes, but I think I'll also get the pointed diamond cutters for the EWT as well. Can't ever have too many tools, there is always a more specialized use case somewhere, right? ;P

 

[sorcerertd]

In that orientation it's scraping,to have any hope of a clean cut you might want it above centre and a slightly downward presentation with a burr on the upward edge.
Not critical so critical if you're wire burning.
There's two excellent videos, one by Allan Batty and the other by Alan Lacer on YT. These are specifically about skew use.
Cheers

I do keep the parting tool slightly longer on one side so it does cut somewhat like the diamond point, but I'm definitely not shooting for super clean with that method.

The skew is definitely THE tool to master. That, and sharpening them.

I've been wanting to try abrasive cording for grooves.

 

[jrista]

I typically use a parting tool sideways. Same principle as the diamond point carbide blade, but certainly won't hold an edge and doesn't always leave a clean cut. I usually just score the barrel lightly and wire burn those anyway. A skew will definitely do the trick, but it takes a very delicate touch. Practice on some scraps, then practice some more. I'm still working out problems between the delicate touch type of cuts and my level of patience. Might be a while on that, though.

Yeah, the delicate touch is the hard part. I did learn the value and proper use of the bevel earlier this year. That was transformative with all my gouges. I know the skew has a bevel a well, but there is something about it that makes it a much more unwieldy tool, one that likes to bite the wood all too readily. At some point, I'll pick up some real cheap spindles and REALLY give it a good go...but I have some things to make for some customers, and I think the point tool and the EWT diamond cutters will do the job I need in the short term here.

 

[sorcerertd]

I also found an interesting one about grinding a phillips head into a point tool. I saw several others talking about repurposing screwdrivers as lathe tools

So, that has a negative rake on it, right? Basically a scraper, albeit a specially purposed one? Still sounds like a good idea.

 

[sorcerertd]

there is something about it that makes it a much more unwieldy tool, one that likes to bite the wood all too readily.

Indeed. 100%. I've lost some nice pieces to that "catch". Almost perfect... just a tiny bit more here... !!!!!

 

[jrista]

Indeed. 100%. I've lost some nice pieces to that "catch". Almost perfect... just a tiny bit more here... !!!!!

 

[Stuart Robertson]

So, that has a negative rake on it, right? Basically a scraper, albeit a specially purposed one? Still sounds like a good idea.

When a skew is used as a scraper (which some regard as heresy)it's essentially a negative rake scraper and so long as you never point it upwards into the work it'll scrape.
The thing about it though, is that on sharpening, preferably on the cbn,is that you form a burr on the edge that is going to be uppermost to the work.The burr is going to take a fluff thin shaving off.
If you want a VERY fine groove simply use it in an upright position long point down and very light pressure.
A deeper groove with this tool requires a bevel supported cut of each bevel.Otherwise it becomes "the devils can opener"
The pyramid tool is a bit like a three faceted skew or negative rake scraper.

 

[howsitwork]

Stuart

I find the three pointed tool easy to use but the cuts are not as clean as the skew. You can use it almost like a ships prow to cut either side ( or rather scrape either side) as you gently wobble it and push forward.