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jttheclockman

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I hope this year the people running the contests do something a little different than in past years.

That is when a contest ends, not only announce who the winners are but put a list of all those who entered so that we can match a pen to a name and give the participants a little bit of recognition being they did put the work in too. This would be a nice addition.:):):)
 
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mark james

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While that might be a good idea, some of the entrants would rather not be identified because their entry received so few votes that they are embarrassed. I usually allow people to self identify at the end of the contest if they want to.
Yup! The entrants can share as much or as little as they wish.
 

jttheclockman

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While that might be a good idea, some of the entrants would rather not be identified because their entry received so few votes that they are embarrassed. I usually allow people to self identify at the end of the contest if they want to.
Really, What is there to be embarrassed about??? You took the time to enter and should be proud of that. They are all winners but we can only supply a certain amount of prizes. This is not grade school where every kid gets a trophy. I know in past contests there were pens that did not win but sure would have liked to know who made them. Never did find out because not everyone shows their pen afterward. I just thought it would have been a good idea. Guess I am wrong again. :)

Maybe we should ask the winners if they want their names announced because they are too embarrassed they came in third.
 
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magpens

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Like Sam, I tend to agree with JT, but at the same time I can see SteveJ's point that some may not wish to be identified for whatever reason.

The point is, though, that even pens that did not win a prize might offer features or innovations that could be interesting and valuable to other penturners. . In the past, there has been no way to contact those makers to either follow up on such features, or to offer congratulations on their innovations ... unless, of course, they go the extra step of posting their contest pen design a second time in the SOYP forum.

I suppose it is best to protect their privacy and let them make the choice after the contest.
 

jttheclockman

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So what we are saying when someone posts a pen in SOYP and they get say 3 likes and no comments or one comment they are then embarrassed and they never show another pen. The person that gets 50 likes will again show another pen. Of course all the administrators have done intensive studies on this so that is why they are answering the way they are. I am just trying to get things right. Everyone knows I am never right. :eek:
 

Ed McDonnell

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Hi John - I feel you made a valid suggestion in your initial post, but I don't agree with the suggestion. My opinion in the matter is that right to privacy is more important than right to know. That doesn't mean I don't respect your position on this issue. I just come to a different conclusion on the issue.

Having run contests here in the past, I've thought about this a lot. I think the contests should be organized to encourage maximum participation from the membership. If mandatory disclosure of non-winning contest participants discouraged even one member from participating in a contest, I would feel that I had failed as a contest organizer. It doesn't matter why anybody might not want to be identified or whether I could ever understand why they might feel the way they do. I respect their right to feel that way.

As an aside (but not relevant to my position on the matter), if a non winning contest participant doesn't want (or can't be bothered) to self identify (either by subsequently posting their work or responding to a "who made pen X" question), then I wouldn't expect them to be overly responsive to any contacts regarding their work. But that's neither here nor there.


Ed
 

dogcatcher

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I would want to know why I received the votes I did, and the reasons I received more or fewer votes would be a great critique. But sometimes it would take a pretty thick skinned individual to be critiqued in this manner.

I am on another forum not pen related that the critiques are brutal, in some cases hobby killers, or they cause the person to leave the forum because they couldn't take the truth. But a true critique is better than a "gold star" attaboy for everybody. I learned more from the critiques than the experts explaining how things are supposed to be done.

On IAP the show us your pens forum is nice, but the critiques are basically rubber stamped. There is not the learning experience like on the above forum I mentioned.

As to the reason for this thread, I think it would be beneficial if those that want the reasons they placed where they did, to step up, and ask why they did or did not get the votes. If public, it will benefit both them and others.
 

EBorraga

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You'll see lots of entries posted after its over. If you want critique, just ask. It should be totally anonymous in my opinion. And im not scared to show my entry after its over :)
 

Terredax

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So what we are saying when someone posts a pen in SOYP and they get say 3 likes and no comments or one comment they are then embarrassed and they never show another pen. The person that gets 50 likes will again show another pen. Of course all the administrators have done intensive studies on this so that is why they are answering the way they are. I am just trying to get things right. Everyone knows I am never right. :eek:

If you were to get no comments on something you worked hard on, and you are proud of, would you care to post another?
There are a lot of new members, and it's hard to receive negative, or zero feedback.

On the other hand, just receiving sympathy, cookie-cutter comments, are almost as counter-productive.

There are members, that have never posted a pen. Ever consider why that might be?

It should be the choice of the member, to reveal themselves, or their work.
 

Ironwood

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I think constructive criticism is great and it helps you to improve in your craft.
When I first read JTs initial post, I thought, why not post the names, because it wouldn’t bother me.
But after reading all the other posts, I think it’s better to leave them anonymous, and let the individual decide if they want to reveal themselves and ask for CC.
I have been a member on various Photography Forums over the last few years, there was one Bird Photography forum that I joined, they were brutal with some of the comments on there, I got a hard time because I posted a photo of a bird with a dirty beak, and the same when I posted a photo of a bird and the branch it was perched on, obscured part of its tail.
I am not that serious, so eventually stopped going on the forum. I am a member of 2 other Photo Forums, they are both a lot more casual, one you will usually just receive likes or nothing, and critique is only given when asked for, on the other we give each other critique on every photo, but it’s done in a friendly manner.

Edit- I should add that I have never seen harsh comments here, but different people have different levels of tolerance.
 
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jttheclockman

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OK I have seen lots of good points and glad that others have voiced solid opinions and their reasons. I think we have become a society where we never want to be told we failed and I believe that starts when we are young More-so today than yesterday. But what I am hearing is voices trying to talk for the group as whole.We are trying to get into the mindset of everyone. Why is it considered losing when you did not place?? What was the largest entry contest, I forgot but was it not over 24. You can not give out 24 prizes so someone has to come in forth down to 24 Why do they have to be embarrassed? Heck call out those that did not enter and embarrass them if need be.

Maybe we need to leave the decision up to those who are entering instead of trying to be the polite police. Who are you or me to tell them you should or should not disclose your name. But instead maybe when we start these contests have a line in there where it states that if you enter the contest your name will be posted when contest is over to match your pen and if you choose not to have this make note when you enter just like with adding your name and address. If that box is not checked the administrator of the contest will send that question to you to get a second answer along with their acknowledgement of their entry. If they do not want name publicized then it will be noted by the administrator. This can also go for the winners. How do we know the winners want their names out there in fear of the 1000 questions of how did you do this what did you use and what is your technique?? Anybody ever ask them if they wanted to be named.?? Maybe the third place winner is embarrassed they came in behind so and so.

Just some thoughts. We did run contests before where names were included with entry and discussions were actually going on while contest was on going and it was encouraged for banter. We have changed so much that we are afraid of the backlash and it was proven that it did get heated. So that went away.

The thought of getting real valuable feedback was brought into this and yes I think true feedback is worth so much more than fluff. But that is a topic for another day.

Anyway this was my thoughts and I accept what the masses agree to.
 

jttheclockman

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So what we are saying when someone posts a pen in SOYP and they get say 3 likes and no comments or one comment they are then embarrassed and they never show another pen. The person that gets 50 likes will again show another pen. Of course all the administrators have done intensive studies on this so that is why they are answering the way they are. I am just trying to get things right. Everyone knows I am never right. :eek:

If you were to get no comments on something you worked hard on, and you are proud of, would you care to post another?
There are a lot of new members, and it's hard to receive negative, or zero feedback.

On the other hand, just receiving sympathy, cookie-cutter comments, are almost as counter-productive.

There are members, that have never posted a pen. Ever consider why that might be?

It should be the choice of the member, to reveal themselves, or their work.
These are all good questions but none of us here can answer for everyone, only ourselves. We ask ourselves those questions and go from there. So I can not answer your questions. :confused:
 

Sly Dog

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If the goal is to encourage participation in the contests, and one acknowledges that some members may be embarrassed by receiving few if any votes (which I think is a legitimate concern) then the policy of the contests should be to give the member that choice. Perhaps the entry process should allow the member to check a box that consents to disclosure (the absence of which would default to anonymity)?

Personally, as a new member hoping to learn and improve from the deep talent pool here, I don’t mind if other members know what pen I entered and how many votes it received, if any. But others may be more sensitive to that. The support, encouragement and constructive criticism a new Penturner gets here is what drew me to join the IAP.

I entered two contests and have truly enjoyed the experience. Thanks to all who run them!

Russ
aka Pretty Wood Pen Contest “loser” (#26) haha
 
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Talltim

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I think it should be stated from the start if names will be shown. Let people enter accordingly.

Personally it seems that when you enter a contest that being identified is part of the process. They do not have contestants run races with bags over their heads so they can only be identified if they win.

I can see where the 13 and under contests might be an exception but I cannot visualize many harsh comments from this group.

Some of the contests are not all skill. Who knows what pretty wood lies out there waiting to be shown. You enter the best you have, then you say “wow” when a better one is shown.

I do not think many members here sit around and laugh over pens that lost. I have found this to be a supportive forum and a fellowship of those who want to learn and share.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app
 
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Terredax

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I think it should be stated from the start if names will be shown. Let people enter accordingly.

This could potentially cause backlash, and even less entries could be the effect. Just in the short time I've been a member, I've noticed a big decline in the participation.

Personally it seems that when you enter a contest that being identified is part of the process. They do not have contestants run races with bags over their heads so they can only be identified if they win.

Contestants in a race, don't have their name on their shirt, only a number. Even lottery winners can choose to keep anonymity.
Contests aren't always about recognition, sometimes it might just be about the possibility of winning a prize. Maybe the prize is something the person would like to have, and put it to good use but, can't afford at the time. A contest, is one way to acquire said item.
 

jttheclockman

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I think it should be stated from the start if names will be shown. Let people enter accordingly.

This could potentially cause backlash, and even less entries could be the effect. Just in the short time I've been a member, I've noticed a big decline in the participation.

Personally it seems that when you enter a contest that being identified is part of the process. They do not have contestants run races with bags over their heads so they can only be identified if they win.

Contestants in a race, don't have their name on their shirt, only a number. Even lottery winners can choose to keep anonymity.
Contests aren't always about recognition, sometimes it might just be about the possibility of winning a prize. Maybe the prize is something the person would like to have, and put it to good use but, can't afford at the time. A contest, is one way to acquire said item.
Again we are trying to be the person who does the thinking for everyone. I will bet you dollars to doughnuts no one person here ever asked this question to any participant who they chaired over a contest. We assume. Talk about races, when a race is done a list of runners is posted somewhere with times and names. I have run my share and also chaired over my share.

In a few days there will be a losers train pulling out of the station as it always does and there will be a ton of people trying to get a seat on that train and to buy a ticket you have to announce your name and claim you are a loser. Do you think they are embarrassed?? I have taken a ride on that train many times in the past and proud to do so. Many people use sign-on names and never post their real names and if they did how do we know if they are true and who cares. What are we 5 years old and start calling people names.

Participation has been down on this site all across the board. Some contests are more popular than others because they are easier to have an entry. If newbies do not enter or do not join in on threads here that is their loss. They are encouraged all the time by many older members as well as newer members. So some of these excuses do not make sense to me anyway.
 

Terredax

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Again we are trying to be the person who does the thinking for everyone. I will bet you dollars to doughnuts no one person here ever asked this question to any participant who they chaired over a contest. We assume. Talk about races, when a race is done a list of runners is posted somewhere with times and names. I have run my share and also chaired over my share.

In a few days there will be a losers train pulling out of the station as it always does and there will be a ton of people trying to get a seat on that train and to buy a ticket you have to announce your name and claim you are a loser. Do you think they are embarrassed?? I have taken a ride on that train many times in the past and proud to do so. Many people use sign-on names and never post their real names and if they did how do we know if they are true and who cares. What are we 5 years old and start calling people names.

Participation has been down on this site all across the board. Some contests are more popular than others because they are easier to have an entry. If newbies do not enter or do not join in on threads here that is their loss. They are encouraged all the time by many older members as well as newer members. So some of these excuses do not make sense to me anyway.
No one is thinking for everyone (your miscalculated opinion). Stating the fact, as you, yourself, has put in print as highlighted. Are you thinking for everyone?

You do a lot of "assuming", and try to push your opinions to no end.
Just because YOU want something, doesn't mean the majority agrees.
There are people, that don't like feeling that they are forced to comply. Take a look at the member list, and see how many members, have NEVER made a post, even after being a member for years.

Of course names and their numbers are posted for a race. But, once the race is over, there isn't a recurring play of events. No one is going to remember that jttheclockman came in 2,968th place, or even who that person is. But... that individual has a reputation on IAP.:eek::wink:
 

magpens

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It seems to me that some of this is just argument for argument's sake.

One solution is to give an equal prize for every entrant in every contest !!! ... Not possible !!

Another solution would be to make every entrant in every contest donate a prize, which would be returned to them at the end of the contest ... how about that. . No fun !!

The "combatants" in this argument seem to have lost appreciation for the enormous amount of time and work that goes into our contests which indeed do add a heck of a lot to the overall fun atmosphere of the IAP community ... WHICH WE DON"T WANT TO LOSE !!

And another thing ... the matter of winning a prize is, at least partially, a crap shoot. . After all, we do not have professional judges. . There can be "mistakes" (in WHOSE OPINION ?) . We can't challenge the decisions of our "judges".

So ... come on ... LIGHTEN UP !!! . This is a process which has been worked out over the 15 years of our existence. . We do it mainly for the fun of it ... not to become winners ... or losers either ... but for the pure fun of challenging ourselves to become better turners ... AND BETTER MEMBERS OF THIS COMMUNITY ... more talented, more interactive, all of that.

Let's just carry on ... and ...

A BIG HEARTY WORD OF APPRECIATION FOR ALL WHO MAKE THE "BASH" HAPPEN ... ADMINISTRATORS, MODERATORS, PRIZE DONORS, AND PARTICIPANTS !!! ... THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!!
 
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jttheclockman

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It seems to me that some of this is just argument for argument's sake.

One solution is to give an equal prize for every entrant in every contest !!! ... Not possible !!

Another solution would be to make every entrant in every contest donate a prize, which would be returned to them at the end of the contest ... how about that. . No fun !!

The "combatants" in this argument seem to have lost appreciation for the enormous amount of time and work that goes into our contests which indeed do add a heck of a lot to the overall fun atmosphere of the IAP community ... WHICH WE DON"T WANT TO LOSE !!

And another thing ... the matter of winning a prize is, at least partially, a crap shoot. . After all, we do not have professional judges. . There can be "mistakes" (in WHOSE OPINION ?) . We can't challenge the decisions of our "judges".

So ... come on ... LIGHTEN UP !!! . This is a process which has been worked out over the 15 years of our existence. . We do it mainly for the fun of it ... not to become winners ... or losers either ... but for the pure fun of challenging ourselves to become better turners ... AND BETTER MEMBERS OF THIS COMMUNITY ... more talented, more interactive, all of that.

Let's just carry on ... and ...

A BIG HEARTY WORD OF APPRECIATION FOR ALL WHO MAKE THE "BASH" HAPPEN ... ADMINISTRATORS, MODERATORS, PRIZE DONORS, AND PARTICIPANTS !!! ... THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!!
Mal

I do not think anyone has lost site of what happens in this Bash event at all. This is just a conversation and different views are being brought to light. I brought the topic up and as far as I know this has never been discussed before any of the 15 years of having these events. No one is knocking the organizers, participants, prize donors or whatever else you mentioned. They were never mentioned in the threads that followed. Why is it we can not discuss things without it becoming a finger pointing thing. Maybe we should run it up the poll and see what the masses say. It would be the fairest thing to do. I have yet to see someone come in here and say that THEY would not want their name mentioned at any time.
 

jttheclockman

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How about a thread for everyone who entered one of the contests to post their entries if they want? This will keep all the photos together for ease of comparisons and questions, and it will be completely up to the discretion of the individual.
Not bad.:)
 

magpens

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JT, ... you really do press your points ... but we put up with it because you make very nice pens.

You don't have to be blind to notice that some members ... even some contest winners ... do not want to be publicly identified.

This is a fact which is obvious if you check the Profiles and see that in some cases there are first names only and in other cases no names at all.

But every contest entrant is required, at the time of submitting a contest entry, to give their real full name to the contest moderator, and that name usually gets publicized when the winners are announced ... unless ... (who knows).

Should IAP hire a lawyer ?

But I, myself, sure would hate to get the reputation that I am the one who is being contentious now ... so ... (figure it out for yourself).
 

mark james

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Just a comment

It seems to me that some of this is just argument for argument's sake.

One solution is to give an equal prize for every entrant in every contest !!! ... Not possible !!

Another solution would be to make every entrant in every contest donate a prize, which would be returned to them at the end of the contest ... how about that. . No fun !!

The "combatants" in this argument seem to have lost appreciation for the enormous amount of time and work that goes into our contests which indeed do add a heck of a lot to the overall fun atmosphere of the IAP community ... WHICH WE DON"T WANT TO LOSE !!

And another thing ... the matter of winning a prize is, at least partially, a crap shoot. . After all, we do not have professional judges. . There can be "mistakes" (in WHOSE OPINION ?) . We can't challenge the decisions of our "judges".

So ... come on ... LIGHTEN UP !!! . This is a process which has been worked out over the 15 years of our existence. . We do it mainly for the fun of it ... not to become winners ... or losers either ... but for the pure fun of challenging ourselves to become better turners ... AND BETTER MEMBERS OF THIS COMMUNITY ... more talented, more interactive, all of that.

Let's just carry on ... and ...

A BIG HEARTY WORD OF APPRECIATION FOR ALL WHO MAKE THE "BASH" HAPPEN ... ADMINISTRATORS, MODERATORS, PRIZE DONORS, AND PARTICIPANTS !!! ... THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!!
Mal

I do not think anyone has lost site of what happens in this Bash event at all. This is just a conversation and different views are being brought to light. I brought the topic up and as far as I know this has never been discussed before any of the 15 years of having these events. No one is knocking the organizers, participants, prize donors or whatever else you mentioned. They were never mentioned in the threads that followed. Why is it we can not discuss things without it becoming a finger pointing thing. Maybe we should run it up the poll and see what the masses say. It would be the fairest thing to do. I have yet to see someone come in here and say that THEY would not want their name mentioned at any time.
Maybe because you stick your finger in everyone's eye!

JT, you encourage folks to enter contests, then on another post you criticize the same contests. You promote the contests you enter, you have even proclaimed to be a winner before the contest is done (yes, simple math, even I get that - but it is simple arrogance). I have written 4 responses to different conversations the past 2 days, and deleted and did not send any because I realize the backlash - 3-4-5-6 divisive responses. And I do not wish that to be what IAP becomes - simple bickering.

You post anguish on the diminishing participation on the IAP forum and contests. Sorry JT - Look in the mirror! Stop being so divisive and be supportive without your self-centered narcissism.

And If I have violated any IAP regulations with this post, I am comfortable with that.

Sheesh, folks, this hobby is supposed to be fun.
 

jttheclockman

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Well I guess I have been told once again where to go. I thank you all for that. I will not make any more suggestions ever again here because they carry my name and ignorance. Thanks for putting up with me Mal. :)
 

mark james

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Well I guess I have been told once again where to go. I thank you all for that. I will not make any more suggestions ever again here because they carry my name and ignorance. Thanks for putting up with me Mal. :)
Fear not JT, we will use the suggestions you have offered, and will work to make IAP inclusive to Newbie BASH participants who ask silly questions and desire logical, directive suggestions for issues, without sarcasm.

We will encourage BASH chairpersons to continue to donate their time without regard to critique and judgement.

We will also encourage participation for entry level questions, and reply without judgement.

And hopefully, we may retain and regain those who have left or remained silent as negativity, narcissism and self-centerness became evident.

Why do I say this? Because I just received another PM, expressing these thoughts.

IAP needs to grow again.
IAP is a wealth of knowledge and resource.
IAP needs to be a welcoming forum.
And IAP is worth it!
 

More4dan

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Could you just post the top three winners without the vote tallies. Then everyone that didn’t win can go to bed at night thinking they were just barely out of the running.

My favorite contest lately has been the loser train. It requires a bit of humility on my part to proudly declare my loser status. Looks like many could use some light hearted humility to put it all in perspective.

I’ve been down a bit when I haven’t gotten many responses to a pen I’ve posted. However, any post where I’ve asked for help and advice, I received an out pouring of assistance. Thanks everyone for the help and inspiration as I’ve strived to do better with this craft.

Thanks to all that work so hard to put on the Bash and all who donate to make it possible.

Danny


Sent from my iPad using Penturners.org mobile app
 
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