Contest Skill Levels - Please Read Then Vote!

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

How Should The IAP Decide Contest Skill Levels?

  • Number of pens turned

    Votes: 12 8.3%

  • Length of IAP Membership

    Votes: 2 1.4%

  • Length of time turning

    Votes: 7 4.8%

  • Self Assessment (The member places himself at the level he believes is appropriate)

    Votes: 101 69.7%

  • Other (Please post your idea or PM it to mbroberg)

    Votes: 23 15.9%
  • Total voters
    145
mbroberg

mbroberg

IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
6,024
Location
Columbus, OH
Please read this post before voting. Future IAP activities, including next years Bash will be influenced by the results.​

IAP Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.​
​



One of the ways the IAP facilitates its mission is to host various activities that allow IAP members, who all have varying degrees of technical knowledge, to enhance their skills and share their experiences. Competition is one of those activities.

During the Birthday Bash and at other times throughout the year many pen making activities are available to members. The IAP attempts to provide a sufficient variety of competitions so that members of all skill levels will be able to participate. The goal is to have each competition be a level playing field where all participants in the competition are working at, or slightly above their own skill level. How to best accomplish that fairly has proven to be difficult.

Competition organizers have used several different means of establishing a contest's skill level. Skill level is generally summarized by the use of three categories: Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.

There is normally never any confusion about who can enter an Advanced competition. Any member is allowed, and encouraged to step out of their comfort zone and enter an Advanced competition. What has proven to be a problem is assuring that an Advanced or Intermediate penturner does not place himself in a competition intended for Beginner penturners and Advanced penturners do not place themselves in a competition intended for Intermediate penturners.

Attempts have been made to define skill level by number of pens turned, length of IAP membership or a combination of the two. Contests have been specifically tailored to specific skill levels. Each of these methods has it's drawbacks.

How should the IAP differentiate between member's individual skill levels. For the purposes of this poll assume that there are three levels of skill; Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.

This poll will remain open indefinitely (i.e. until response dwindles down to nothing)
 
Last edited:
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
All of the above and a whole lot more like type of pens turned, competitions entered and place in comp, guild membership, peer review etc

Scale of 1-10 for each category added together.

Actually in itself this test is subjective. If I buy a fancy blank, get someone to make a fancy clip, get another part made or plated or etched etc and I put it all together - what does that make me? It might only be my third pen! Food for thought as they say :)

Interesting poll to watch :D
 
Actually in itself this test is subjective. If I buy a fancy blank, get someone to make a fancy clip, get another part made or plated or etched etc and I put it all together - what does that make me?

I think it makes you a member of a Collaborative Challenge :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
I think the main thing that should be taken into consideration is past pens made by the competitor. If the person has made a clearly advanced pen, even if they have only made 5 pens and have been turning for two months, then they should be in the advanced contest. It is all relative to their work level, not quantity or time
 
none of the above. I don't think its fair to judge someone on how long they have been a member, a turner, or even by their technical ability or the tools they have available in their shop.. I feel it should be determined by "wow" factor.

The turner should be able to post their pen to an anonymous vote, where the public decide what level the turner should be placed in. Someone with a catalogue of technical abilities and all the toys in the shop may still make an ugly pen... its those with creative flare and vision which invoke that wow factor when you look at their work.. its those breath taking works of art which should place the turner in the higher rank.. regardless of everything else.
 
if I make a nice blank and put it on a nice kit and it has some wow factor am I advance pen maker or a good blank maker that happened to match the blank with a kit.
 
You can make an uber complicated ranking system that consumes all kinds of time and effort. At the end of the day, someone who wants to game the system to get themselves placed at a level below their abilities so they can win a prize will find a way to do it.

Seems simpler and just as effective to let people self select, with the exception of anyone having won beginner or intermediate contests not being allowed to compete at the same (or lower) level again.

An alternative would be to have juried ranks in IAP. People submit pens (the real pen, not a picture) to the jury of their choice (beginner, intermediate or advanced) and they are accepted or rejected (as either over or under qualified). Given the posts about judges and judging that seems to follow every event here, I can imagine how that would work. Being a juror would likely be a thankless task.

Ed
 
I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


I believe the beginners will be the major players in the unmodified ball point contest, and even if an advanced turner chooses to play, there is only so much they can do under the rules. Probably very little advantage if any at all. Personally, I doubt any advanced pen makers would enter. I think skill levels would naturally gravitate towards the proper contests.
 
The other thing is that some turners may have been members of the forum for a long time, but seldom get into the shop due to family, health or job responsibilities. They may have even made many pens, but because of the time between pens, they have not had the ability to hone their skills to a certain "level."

IMHO, I believe ability/rank should be determined by the individual and then if submitting for any of the contests, have the judges or the membership rank their submissions according to the evidence, either by pictures (which I feel is an unfair playing field) or by actually submitting the actual pen (which I feel is the only way to level the playing field.)

The only reason I have not posted many pictures or competed in any of the contests is not because of my turning ability, it's because I don't have the camera equipment, or the other equipment/software to get a picture that would show my submission in the (excuse the pun) "best light!"

mtgrizzly52


<img id="ums_img_tooltip" class="UMSRatingIcon">
 
Introducing a practical angle:

There are 19 contests listed for the bash.
There are 18 bash "planners" shown.

If you want more rigid standards or "evaluation" of your competition's level, WHO is going to do this?? None of the above folks were sitting around looking for a project.

There is no objective standard for an "advanced" penmaker. Just because you made a poor attempt at a "kitless" does not make you "Advanced".

Certainly there is a reason to keep the beginners' contest limited to beginners. But, once you make a great kit pen, if you are at all mechanically inclined, you have the skill set required to make any pen---whether you have actually made that pen, or not.

So call them intermediate or call them advanced, what's the difference??
Look at the top ten Intermediate pens---they are magnificent examples of a GREAT pen blank. But, there are no "incredible skills" displayed---beyond the abilities of an "intermediate" pen maker. As long as you are using a "kit", what good does it do you to know how to "go kitless"??

The talent is in the making of the blank these days and anyone CAN make a blank. The ability to imagine a result and then make that happen separates the best from the very good---that is "artistic vision" in my book. Dawn has it, I don't. She has turned NO pens, I have turned thousands. But, she would show a better pen than I---so now try to "categorize" her skills.

Good luck!
Ed
 
(an honest) self assessment along with a peer review would be the most accurate way to classify skill level, but this is neither convenient nor practical in many cases

The first three have a weak correlation to skill level. # of pens turned - 'Bob' has made 2,000 pens, all very similar, has never received any outside assistance, and consequently makes the same basic mistakes on every pen. 'Joe' has made 2 pens (and very outstanding pens at that). He has done a lot of research, reading, watched videos, etc. and has received a lot of hands on training from some very skilled turners. Based on # of pens, one would assume that 'Bob' is much more advanced. However, that is clearly not the case.

Similar arguments can be made for Length of IAP membership and Length of time turning.
 
InvisibleMan said:
I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


Your contests have merit although I would leave the advanced class and competitions. The real problem is beginner and intermediate levels. How do you decide who is what. Your contests 1,2,and 3 would allow all levels to compete. Casting is a different than turning and in my opinion is well moderated and implemented.
Click to expand...
 
We have several guild members...why not have them "place" the tags on peoples skills...or Why not start the IAP Board of Skill and people submit their work for grading. If you want to enter a contest you must be board certified at some point 6 months prior or such..just throwing ideas
 
I voted self assessment. Being fairly new I graded myself when the contests were announced and found I fell into a sort of comp limbo. I considered myself a beginer, but I had made more pens than what the rules stated were allowed but I by no means felt I belonged in the intermediate category. Having just voted in that contest I know my current skills dont measure up to the beautiful pens in the top 10.

I understand that the bash is to challenge yourself and go above and beyond your comfort zone. Maybe add another group between beginer and advanced? Or add a master category. I'm guessing I am not the only one that fell into this kind of pen makers purgatory.
 
I suspect we may be trying to fix something that is not broken (and nobody available to enforce), so I chose "self assessment". I'm not a particularly prolific penturner, but I have been at it for several years and I consider my skills to be "intermediate". I wouldn't enter a contest for beginners. I think anybody obviously overqualified to participate in a contest would be subject to jeers. Peer pressure should be sufficient policing so I don't see the need to complicate the contests.

I made 9 pens for various contests this year. I was planning to enter the Intermediate and Advanced contests as well, but ran out of time to complete them.

I do like Mike's idea of specifying the pen characteristics instead of the maker skills. For example
  • Unmodified kit w/ commercially available blank.
  • Lightly augmented kit w/ handmade blank (no CNC or laser).
  • Mostly kit w/ any blank you make.
  • Kitless.
  • Freestyle.
I think that people would naturally gravitate to contests that match their own skill level (or above, if they wanted to push their abilities).

Regards,
Eric
 
I appreciate all the answers, comments and suggestions offered so far. I am going to be posting quite a few polls in the next couple days/weeks in an attempt to offer things in forms most acceptable to the IAP membership. How activities are run this year, and how the Bash is run next year will be influenced by the results of these polls.

With that in mind, try to keep it simple. IAP activities are supposed to be fun, not stressful. We would like fewer rules and restrictions, not more. While we do want to keep things fair, we are not the Penmakers Guild. Rating systems, juries, peer review have been discussed and the reality is they are just not practical. They cannot be administered given the resources we have available to us. So even though that would be a good solution to the problem it is just not a realistic solution.
 
I was quoting Invisible Man's post the idea was not mine. I dont want to take credit for anothers idea.
 
Why do we need so many labels and pigeon holes to put people in?
Landon's 'honour system' works perfectly in my opinion. ( although he ALWAYS spells it wrong!!!! :) )
The last thing we need is some sort of ranking system based on irrelevant data.
Jeesh, we already have enough demi gods that think they are so much better than anyone else for stupid reasons like they have made 64 gazillion pens or have posts counts that look like international phone numbers.
This place is where we come to relax and have fun.
There ARE actually accurate methods already on this site that will show who is determined by their peers to be advanced or not, but personally, I hope we never explore them.

A great topic for discussion though Mike..!! :)
 
ed4copies said:
Introducing a practical angle:

There are 19 contests listed for the bash.
There are 18 bash "planners" shown.

If you want more rigid standards or "evaluation" of your competition's level, WHO is going to do this?? None of the above folks were sitting around looking for a project.

There is no objective standard for an "advanced" penmaker. Just because you made a poor attempt at a "kitless" does not make you "Advanced".

Certainly there is a reason to keep the beginners' contest limited to beginners. But, once you make a great kit pen, if you are at all mechanically inclined, you have the skill set required to make any pen---whether you have actually made that pen, or not.

So call them intermediate or call them advanced, what's the difference??
Look at the top ten Intermediate pens---they are magnificent examples of a GREAT pen blank. But, there are no "incredible skills" displayed---beyond the abilities of an "intermediate" pen maker. As long as you are using a "kit", what good does it do you to know how to "go kitless"??

The talent is in the making of the blank these days and anyone CAN make a blank. The ability to imagine a result and then make that happen separates the best from the very good---that is "artistic vision" in my book. Dawn has it, I don't. She has turned NO pens, I have turned thousands. But, she would show a better pen than I---so now try to "categorize" her skills.

Good luck!
Ed
Click to expand...



Ed you have to excuse me because sometimes you talk philosophically and I have a hard time distingushing what you mean. :)But you touched on a couple points I highlighted in red.

The first I agree that there are no standards because who is to say what advanced is. You later state basically if you use a kit pen then you are not advanced. I direct your attention to the SO_CALLED GUILD of pen making and look at the members entered in this prestigeous ranking and see how many pens are kits, 9 out of 10 are. Having cnc machines and lazer equipment does not make you an advanced pen maker just an advanced money makerith more advanced toys. I know I have tried to use basic tools found in most people's shops to make some of the pens I have shown and some of the ones I am still working on. I consider myself an advanced pen maker from what I have seen here and that is what and only what I can go by. I feel that is what others judge their abilities on too from what they see here.

I challenge you on the second point. If anyone can make a blank then why don't we see more of them here. I see over and over the same wood or cast acrylic blanks put on various kits. Or someone buys someone elses blank and turns it. It is boring.

Going kitless is not a criteria for advanced pen maker either. Yes it is a different set of tools to make but where is the inmagination in them too.???

As for the question at hand. I feel the self critiquing and evalutaing is the only way to go. I do believe if you win in a catagory you must move up or try something new. I do feel that the contests should not be judged by judges. They should have sort of a group of pens in each round and then keep narrowing it down by the top vote getters. Till you get to the top ten. Don't let a select few pick the top ten because just as you said Ed take any group of people and they will have different tastes. But what I am proposing puts it in the hands of the people who take the time to vote and I must say I was not impressed with the voting numbers for a forum that has over 14,000 members. Breaking down the catagories is a good thing also. Just some of my thoughts.
 
mredburn said:
InvisibleMan said:
I'd personally get rid of the beginner, intermediate, advanced, etc.....

Contest 1: unmodified ball point. Wood. No modifications, No segmenting
Contest 2: Rollerball/fountain pen kit. No modifications.
Contest 3: Segmenting contest - a specific kit only - maybe all Zens or something.
Contest 4: Color casting
and so on.....


Your contests have merit although I would leave the advanced class and competitions. The real problem is beginner and intermediate levels. How do you decide who is what. Your contests 1,2,and 3 would allow all levels to compete. Casting is a different than turning and in my opinion is well moderated and implemented.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree. I just think it's easier to categorize pen characteristics than people. Heck, we know that some people don't know how to categorize themselves, and it can get confusing. People don't want to do the wrong thing, even though it wouldn't really matter.

So, I thought getting rid of the "beginner, intermediate, advanced" might work, and replace with specific design elements that people with those skill levels would naturally migrate to and have a shot at doing well in. Sure, they'd be open to all, but I don't really think advanced pen makers would enter an unmodified ball point non-segmented wood pen contest. But, if they did, they wouldn't have much of an advantage anyway.

My specific contests were just examples. I agree that the casting contests work fine as-is.

All that said, I don't really care how this all shakes out. I'm in for the fun, and I'll have as much as I have time for in any case. My personal results in contests don't matter much to me, although I do my best when I enter.

By the way, I'm lumping "advanced" in with "beginner" and "intermediate". I'm not sure what I'd do here, but I do think there were some pens entered in the Exotics contest that, in my opinion, would have done very well in other contests, but didn't place in the advanced beautiful contest. These were truly advanced pens - I don't have the skill set to have made the ones I'm thinking about - but also fit other categories better IMO. I don't even know that anything should be done, but I really wish we could have seen them in those other contests. Another reason I may try to define certain contests more narrowly, but obviously there are good reasons to disagree.
Click to expand...
 
I think skill level is determined by the complexity of the pen. Starting out, we will mostly be working with kits and learning things such as how to make the blank into a pleasing shape, what the pleasing and functional shape really is. We learning what finish works and how to properly apply that finish We might experiment with different kits and materials, but it is still mostly kit based work.

As we progress to an intermediate level we are learning how to modify kits to make more unique pens. This might include replacing a metal button with a wood button or converting a pen to a closed end style. I think this when people start to experiment with making their own blanks, particularly wood blanks. We begin to experiment with Celtic knots or captive rings or wherever our imagination takes us.

I think the advanced level is when we are doing kit-less work. We are cutting our own threads and experimenting with materials beyond wood and acrylic. The quality of inlay work or herringbone type blanks is of the highest order, without chips or voids.

I don't think you can saw that after you have turned 100 pens you are an intermediate pen turner. Some people may be considered intermediate after 10 pens while others may need 200 pens.

Just my .02.
 
Really there are no right or wrong answers or opinion here, just debate. There are flaws in our current system. There are flaws in the other systems. Which one has the least flaws to the most people? Is change really necessary? Having a run off of the top 10 from all the pens and then top 5 and finally winning 3 might be good. But the time frame to let as many people vote as will, takes the bash into March. Either that or short and sweet voting period 24-48 hours per poll.
 
mredburn said:
Really there are no right or wrong answers or opinion here, just debate. There are flaws in our current system. There are flaws in the other systems. Which one has the least flaws to the most people? Is change really necessary? Having a run off of the top 10 from all the pens and then top 5 and finally winning 3 might be good. But the time frame to let as many people vote as will, takes the bash into March. Either that or short and sweet voting period 24-48 hours per poll.
Click to expand...


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:Voting procedures, the use of judges, the unveiling of photographs and a whole list of other things are going to be subjects of upcoming polls.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:​
 
Its good to be able to generate discussion and feedback. It makes the contests better in the long run.
 
Post photos for 24 hours after their entry and then show all 24 hours after deadline. Each will get equal time and we still get eye candy.
 
Received via PM:

This is a tough one.
Length of time in IAP; Turning time; may or may not equal skill level. I've been with IAP for 5 years, and I consider my work a beginner; however, because I've been with IAP and turning for 5 years others may disagree. My actual turning time 1 year.
self position is my vote with the option of the judges to have final rule. Let's say someone enters as a beginner and submits a multi segmented pen. Probably not a beginner and maybe the judges can ask for proof of beginner. such as other pens completed, short bio on turning experience or length of time with other social media sites.
 
I agree with quite a bit of ideas here. I would call myself and intermediate, I have been turning pens for about a year and a half. I got really board really fast with turning just wood, so I play with clay, segmenting and have started to get into casting. But by and large there is nothing that I do that I would consider 'advanced'.

For the most part I am a woodworking hand tool junkie that only dabbles in pen making when I am in between projects. I can go months without turning a pen.

I think the ideas of having the contests be a little more specific to be a good one. The kit-less, casting ones are right on. But some of the other ones are too general and are too open to interpretation in regards to what is expected and what can and cannot be used as far as mechanical and professional aids.

One thing for sure about these contests.... they really do make you step up your game. I am looking forward to the next batch.
 
Different criteria.

I think you need non-subjective criteria for entering I would base the entries on the style of pen and on the material.
Examples.
Say: 7mm ballpoint unmodified kit using wood or 7mm unmodified kit using man made material, maybe both you could allow things like segmenting or not.

Single bbl ball point unmodified kit using wood. or solid plastic, or cast

Two bbl Rollerball or Fountain Pen unmodified kit same on materials

Then you could have modifieds where kit parts are changed/dropped or have something added.

Then you could have a free styles (single bbl/dbl bbl/closed end/etc where anything goes within a catagory..

The possibilities are endless...you could control the number of entries by limiting everyone to one or two entries.

Trying to sort out who is a beginner and who is advanced or intermediate is just too complex.

With this system you have fairness.
 
Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.
 
Bob Wemm said:
Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.
Click to expand...


You would have soooooooooooooooooo many catagories it probably would not have enough people to run them.
 
I built model cars competitively years ago. One of the ways we kept people interning the comp. was have a box stock category. It doesn't mater wether your advance or beginner it all is the same. Pick a pen and go at it. What are you really looking for, quality fit and finish.
If the person makes their own blank and it sucks well their bad. If it looks great then points ahead. I looked at the intermediate contest pens and honestly it toke me a longgggg time to vote and quie honestly I really didn't want to vote because the pens IMHO we so close in quality that to me it came down to personal prefrance. I like to judge on technique I think that all those pens where winners. Sorry for th rambling
RHorne
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
jttheclockman said:
Bob Wemm said:
Smitty and invisibleman have said basically what I proposed on the 28th Feb.
I think the only way to keep the contests fair is to "Catagorise" the pen, not the maker.
If the beginner had to submit an "unmodified standard kit wood pen", and so on for the next level Etc.
IMHO that is the only way to go.

Bob.
Click to expand...


You would have soooooooooooooooooo many catagories it probably would not have enough people to run them.
Click to expand...
Nah - you have only as many as you want....you don't have to cover every possible catigory. 5 or 6 would probably give everybody who wanted to enter a pen an opportunity to do so.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom