Comparison of finishes

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sorcerertd

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This is not a post asking for 1,001 personal experiences/preferences on finishes, though some experience and/or chemical knowledge is certainly welcome regarding how different types of finishes function.

A quick search on finishes in resources didn't turn up quite what I was looking for, which is something comparing them as far as application, cure time, outcome, durability, et. al. There are sooo many choices that it can be overwhelming. Then there are the variables: wood structure, grain orientation, oil content, etc. Is there some resource I am missing on this? If we don't have something, I can start one based on collective member experience and info from the manufacturers that can be further developed over time. No promises on turnaround time, though.

I gave my father a pen quite some time ago and he was impressed with how I made it look like plastic (CA finish). Though he meant it as a compliment, I was slightly offended because the true wood feel didn't come across in the finished product. It was Olive, so it needed protection from skin oils to prevent the wood from getting dirty looking from discoloration/darkening (yet another consideration).

I see quite a few mentions of Pens Plus. Not long ago, Craft Coat was mentioned and, in another thead, @Wmcullen mentioned he uses EEE polish and Shellawax (which came out beautifully). So wait, now we have options with combined finishes, too? Oh, boy.

For my part, I've used CA, Mahoney's Oil Wax, and Aussie Oil.
  • CA is CA, plasticy feeling, but super durable and easy to polish. I dislike the effect it has on some woods (Wenge anyone?)
  • Mohoney's, I was completely unimpressed and it ended up going rancid just sitting there. Maybe it's better suited to things other than small turnings?
  • Aussie Oil, I like the depth and richness it adds, and the ease of use, but it doesn't seem that durable. Maybe I just need more practice with application and/or more patience with curing?
All that, and application methods haven't even been touched upon. That should probably be addressed separately.
 
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howsitwork

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Tung oil works well but takes AGES to dry.3 to 4 days but very durable then and feels nice ( on bowls not tried as yet on pens )

Danish oil works well on oily timbers eg lignum vitae and stops the smell, burnishes beautifully too.Both these oils cure by polymerisation but danish has accelerators added so can be re coated after a few hours.

Melamine gives a gloss or semi gloss depending upon number and thickness of coats used.

Lemon oil not durable sadly but lovely smell. Orange oil not tried as yet .

Friction polish works but not durable enough.

All the above applied with a soft cloth ( dispose of said cloth immediately afterwards ) except for Melamine which needs a quality soft paint brush to flow it on.
 

monophoto

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Friction polish works but not durable enough.


Clarification needed - there are two relatively common formulations for friction polish. Shellac-based friction polish is the more common, but it doesn't wear well. Lacquer-based friction polish is tougher. There are several commercial versions of both although finding the lacquer-based polishes is a bit more difficult because advertising doesn't always clearly differentiate between them. Behlens and William Woodright both have lacquer-based friction polish, and the friction polish sold by PSI is the William Woodwrite product with a different label (but the same MSDS).

But you can make your own. Capt Eddie talked about 'OB's Shine Juice' which he described as 1/3 shellac, 1/3 denatured alcohol, and 1/3 BLO. Lacquer based friction polish is similar - 1/3 lacquer (Deft or equivalent), 1/3 lacquer thinner, and 1/3 BLO. And in either formula, you can substitute either Tung oil or Walnut oil for BLO.
 

dogcatcher

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I am a finish junkie. I have bought every finish known to mankind, I have created more conconc0ctions of finishes that is humanly possible. I used to have notebooks with notes on what worked and what did not work. A 12 Step Program for finish junkies is futile. I have been a woodturner since 1961 and a finish junkie for almost as long.

The end result, in my opinion there is no one perfect finish for everything, and there is no fast, easy and simple finish. Additionally every good finish starts with a good sanding job.
 

sorcerertd

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I am a finish junkie. I have bought every finish known to mankind, I have created more conconc0ctions of finishes that is humanly possible. I used to have notebooks with notes on what worked and what did not work. A 12 Step Program for finish junkies is futile. I have been a woodturner since 1961 and a finish junkie for almost as long.

The end result, in my opinion there is no one perfect finish for everything, and there is no fast, easy and simple finish. Additionally every good finish starts with a good sanding job.

Hmm, it sounds like you could put together quite a reference sheet for us. ;)
Surely some finishes are better than others for specific applications? Porous woods vs. denser ones, lighter colored woods to not darken them?

But you can make your own. Capt Eddie talked about 'OB's Shine Juice' which he described as 1/3 shellac, 1/3 denatured alcohol, and 1/3 BLO. Lacquer based friction polish is similar - 1/3 lacquer (Deft or equivalent), 1/3 lacquer thinner, and 1/3 BLO. And in either formula, you can substitute either Tung oil or Walnut oil for BLO.
I've seen capt. Eddie's recipe, but didn't know there were lacquer based friction finishes. The question on those is, can they be polished after they dry to remove any radial marks from the pressure of the finish application? Which also makes me wonder how many finishes besides CA can be sanded and polished now.

@howsitwork, I hate to cover up the smell of Lignum Vitae. Is there any way to speed up the polymerization? Can it be handled enough to put off to the side somewhere while it dries without leaving marks where you touched it?
 

jttheclockman

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Hmm, it sounds like you could put together quite a reference sheet for us. ;)
Surely some finishes are better than others for specific applications? Porous woods vs. denser ones, lighter colored woods to not darken them?


I've seen capt. Eddie's recipe, but didn't know there were lacquer based friction finishes. The question on those is, can they be polished after they dry to remove any radial marks from the pressure of the finish application? Which also makes me wonder how many finishes besides CA can be sanded and polished now.

@howsitwork, I hate to cover up the smell of Lignum Vitae. Is there any way to speed up the polymerization? Can it be handled enough to put off to the side somewhere while it dries without leaving marks where you touched it?
You have to remember the use of CA as a finish is not technically correct. We in the pen world have taken a glue and adapted to our use. All the other top coatings mentioned are just that top coatings and should not need polishing. They are what they are from the type used. Lacquers can be polished to an even shine. Not necessary a higher shine. This is done with nitrocellulose lacquer finish. But great care is needed to avoid rubbing through the finish. Also any top coat finish needs to be cured as well as dry. Polys same thing. Why would you polish when you can buy any degree of shine in a can. They have flatteners in them.

Friction finishes are a different catagory. Danish oils have poly in them so they are a mix. There is a whole study to finishes. Is one better than another the answer is no and yes. Everything top coated with a finish has a purpose and the finish needs to meet that purpose. Is one tougher than another is up to user. All finishes scratch.
 

dogcatcher

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Hmm, it sounds like you could put together quite a reference sheet for us. ;)
Surely some finishes are better than others for specific applications? Porous woods vs. denser ones, lighter colored woods to not darken them?
I recommend a book by Bob Flexner, "Understanding Wood Finishes" also Russ Fairfield's Secrets of Finishes. https://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russ3.shtml
 

jrista

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I am a finish junkie. I have bought every finish known to mankind, I have created more conconc0ctions of finishes that is humanly possible. I used to have notebooks with notes on what worked and what did not work. A 12 Step Program for finish junkies is futile. I have been a woodturner since 1961 and a finish junkie for almost as long.

The end result, in my opinion there is no one perfect finish for everything, and there is no fast, easy and simple finish. Additionally every good finish starts with a good sanding job.
Hah! I guess I am a finish junkie as well. I am new to woodworking, and I am still exploring everything. I haven't used poly much, for example, but I hear so many good things about it. I have a whole shelf in one of my workbenches packed full of various finishes.

I agree with you about sanding, though...for a really good finish, you need a really good sanding job. This seems triply true with friction polishes. Right now, Pens Plus is my favorite pen finish, but I have definitely found that an extremely, extremely smooth, fine sanded finish is required for it to come out properly.


On the subject of the thread:

It should be noted, and this is based on my experience with Mylands friction polish, my own O.B. Shine Juice mix, Doctor's Woodshop friction polish, and Doctor's Woodshop Pens Plus...Pens Plus is definitely different than other friction polishes. I feel it just gets lumped in with "all the rest" of the friction polishes, but the synthetic microcrystalline wax is a key differentiator. Friction polishes include shellac, which seems to break down when in contact with human sweat. Pens Plus, however, was specially formulated specifically for pens, and the wax was chosen to provide a durable, fingerprint-resistant finish.

In my experience, having been using a pens plus finished pen for months now, almost daily, the finish is as good now as it was the day I assembled the pen. There has been none of that breakdown that I find when I use a pen finished with Mylands High Build friction polish, which used to be one of the top finishes I used to use on my pens. I no longer use it, as there is a distinct difference between the Mylands polish and Pens Plus. The latter actually lasts, and seems to handle sweat or oily fingers just fine.

So it might not be best to lump Pens Plus in with all the rest of the shellac-based friction polishes. To do so, I think it means certain individuals who have experience with shellac based finishes will reject it out of hand, unaware of the real-world differences between them.
 
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leehljp

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Don't forget that CA can be finished with a matt finish that gives it a different tactile feel to it, and masks its plasticy look at the same time.

I know very few will use urushi due to its severe allergens while a liquid, but it produces what is quite possibly the highest return on investment for those who know what they are doing. It also becomes one of the absolute toughest and longest lasting finishes if done right. A few on this forum do use it.
 

sorcerertd

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I recommend a book by Bob Flexner, "Understanding Wood Finishes" also Russ Fairfield's Secrets of Finishes. https://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russ3.shtml
Oh, this is good stuff. Thanks! The youtube videos will probably be handy and it sure looks like that book has it all covered, including the chemistry that makes it work.

the synthetic microcrystalline wax is a key differentiator
I was wondering about that and, from what I've seen around here, it doesn't just fill in the pores completely. I suspect it might if enough was used.

Don't forget that CA can be finished with a matt finish that gives it a different tactile feel to it, and masks its plasticy look at the same time.

I know very few will use urushi due to its severe allergens while a liquid, but it produces what is quite possibly the highest return on investment for those who know what they are doing. It also becomes one of the absolute toughest and longest lasting finishes if done right. A few on this forum do use it.
Just to think that urushi finishes have lasted thousands of years is beyond impressive. It seems a little daunting, but I am interested in trying it some day.
I've done matte CA a few times for a more rustic or utilitarian look, but it still doesn't allow one to really feel the wood grain. There are a few I've done with just a couple coats of thin ca and basically burnished with a cloth, like the bog oak one from New Year's Eve, though that had more finish than I wanted on that one du to me not leaving well enough alone with it.

They are what they are from the type used. Lacquers can be polished to an even shine. Not necessary a higher shine.
Thanks, John. This is what I was looking for with that question. If I have a brush mark or something, I can level it out.


Ultimately, I'm just trying to research other options without dropping $20 or $30 each on 10 different finishes to test them out. Somebody needs to sell a sample pack. I thought someone else might appreciate the info also.
 

PatrickR

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I have stayed away from the wax/shellac/BLO types of finishes as I see them as non durable.
I do switch around between CA, Lacquer and a high tech moisture cure automotive clear.
Sometimes with Ca I just use it as a sanding sealer/filler and then polish. It retains the wood feel. Some woods dont require a finish at all and will polish to a very nice smooth shine.
I think dip-finishing is under utilized. It has many advantages and works very well with durable build finishes like lacquer and require no post finish sanding or polishing.
 

jrista

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I was wondering about that and, from what I've seen around here, it doesn't just fill in the pores completely. I suspect it might if enough was used.

After sanding to a high grit, I first finish with the pure walnut oil, to fill in the pores. I friction polish that to polymerize it, let that sit for a bit. Put on a second coat and let that sit a bit. Then finish with PP.
 

MedWoodWorx

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two questions
a. what is lemon oil ? some scented oily finish?does it contain essential oil from lemons peels?
b. i am trying to ca finish a pen for the past month or so and ca becomes whitish after curing, i suspect that this is because of low temperatures. how low is too low for ca to cure properly?has anyone noticed a temperature threshold? yesterday i was working at about 15 C (59 F) and RH 60% aproximately. cheers
 

leehljp

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two questions
a. what is lemon oil ? some scented oily finish?does it contain essential oil from lemons peels?
b. i am trying to ca finish a pen for the past month or so and ca becomes whitish after curing, i suspect that this is because of low temperatures. how low is too low for ca to cure properly?has anyone noticed a temperature threshold? yesterday i was working at about 15 C (59 F) and RH 60% aproximately. cheers
It has been my purely subjective experience, that whitish can occur during moderately high humidity 65%-75% or more and at temps from about 75°-78°F (23C/25C) and below. A heated workshop helps.
 

monophoto

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two questions
a. what is lemon oil ? some scented oily finish?does it contain essential oil from lemons peels?
b. i am trying to ca finish a pen for the past month or so and ca becomes whitish after curing, i suspect that this is because of low temperatures. how low is too low for ca to cure properly?has anyone noticed a temperature threshold? yesterday i was working at about 15 C (59 F) and RH 60% aproximately. cheers
Lemon oil is an essential oil found in the rind of lemons. Sometimes called limonene. Similar oils are found in other citrus fruit. Often used in furniture polishes.
 

PatrickR

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two questions
a. what is lemon oil ? some scented oily finish?does it contain essential oil from lemons peels?
b. i am trying to ca finish a pen for the past month or so and ca becomes whitish after curing, i suspect that this is because of low temperatures. how low is too low for ca to cure properly?has anyone noticed a temperature threshold? yesterday i was working at about 15 C (59 F) and RH 60% aproximately. cheers
I would suspect humidity or old CA. I commonly use CA in very cold conditions (yesterday in the twenties) without problems. Do allow more time for it to dry.
 

howsitwork

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Clarification needed - there are two relatively common formulations for friction polish. Shellac-based friction polish is the more common, but it doesn't wear well. Lacquer-based friction polish is tougher. There are several commercial versions of both although finding the lacquer-based polishes is a bit more difficult because advertising doesn't always clearly differentiate between them. Behlens and William Woodright both have lacquer-based friction polish, and the friction polish sold by PSI is the William Woodwrite product with a different label (but the same MSDS).

But you can make your own. Capt Eddie talked about 'OB's Shine Juice' which he described as 1/3 shellac, 1/3 denatured alcohol, and 1/3 BLO. Lacquer based friction polish is similar - 1/3 lacquer (Deft or equivalent), 1/3 lacquer thinner, and 1/3 BLO. And in either formula, you can substitute either Tung oil or Walnut oil for BLO.
The one I use is shellac based and dissolved in methylated alcohol.

Wasn’t aware there was a lacquer one , hope that’s cleared that up ?

The lemon oil is derived from lemon grass I believe not lemon rinds but smells similar. Orange oil is definitely from orange peel.
 
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WriteON

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I like CA… it brings out the grain. I’ll bring it down with 0000 steel wool or something similar. Will use EEE with a tiny piece of 0000 … small piece so it does not catch and wrap around the blank. The finish is not high gloss plastic. It’s a good looking natural finish. Also BirchWood Casey Tru-oil is easy to use with a nice looking finish
 

jrista

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Another factor about finishes is toxicity. For me, CA is extremely toxic. Anaphylaxis like toxic. I guess that is one of the reasons I've spent so much time hunting for an alternative finish...if I get exposed to CA fumes or dust, it causes severe respiratory issues, and they can last for a week or more. Pens Plus, on the other hand, or for that matter pretty much any friction polish, is harmless.

I wonder about other finishes. How toxic is oil-based poly? Polycrylic? Etc...

I have the "bible" of wood finishes...but...I don't recall much about how toxic each type of finish is from that book... Maybe I need to re-read it.
 

monophoto

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When I first got a lathe, I initially focused on pens, and tried several approaches to finishing. I quickly concluded that I didn't like using CA - too plastic, too finicky to do, and while I'm not aware of any allergies, I really didn't like the odor. Instead, I found that I preferred either wipe-on polyurethane, or water-based poly (floor finish) for pens. I found both to be quite tough, although they do take more time to apply. Standard solvent-based WOP does have a bit of an odor (mainly from the mineral spirits component), but water-based poly does not. Both can be buffed to a high shine if that's what is desired.

I have made quite a few '12 cent pens' - redressed BIC pens that I give away. These I have typically finished using lacquer-based friction polish. But that finish does contain lacquer thinner which has a distinct odor, and is pretty flamable. I've never had a problem, but others might find it unappealing for those reasons.

My go-to finish for most turnings (not pens) today is a shop-made Danish oil that emulates the characteristics of Waterlox. I found the formula in Rush Fairfield's notes on finishes - equal quantities of a high-quality alkyd spar varnish (I use McCloskey's Man-o-War), a solvent (I prefer turpentine rather than mineral spirits), and Tung Oil. Wipe in on, let it sit for 45-60 minutes, wipe it off, and let it cure for 3-4 hours. Buff lightly with a gray scotch-brite pad, and repeat - applying 3-4 coats. After it cures, I can either rub it down using a gray scotch-brite and Howards Feed- n-Wax (for a satin finish), or use the conventional three-step buffing process (for a gloss finish).

I've also made a version of this using tub-oil based polyurethane varnish (Zar) rather thank alkyd varnish. I think the poly version is tougher than the alkyd version, but that's only my perception - I really don't have any comparative tests to based that opinion on. However, I have concluded that the poly version takes longer to cure.

Either form of my Danish oil mix does have a slight odor, but its neither strong nor persistent.

In my experience, the finish that has the least noticeable odor is water-based poly floor finish. The main downside is that it is absolutely colorless,; it works very well on timbers that have a natural amber tone, but it's pretty stark on light woods like holly and maple.
 
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leehljp

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I believe the primary factor in finish use is the ability to adapt to longer finish times.

A normal pen can be turned in 30 minutes (maybe less) and completed with finish in 1 hours with CA. It kinda runs against the normal human thinking grain to spend 10 times the amount of time "on the finish" as compared to the making of the pen itself. It is a psychological thing. But Urushi users KNOW that the finish is what makes the pen as much as the pen's design itself. Patience pays off for them.

IF one accepts the fact that finishes will take several hours at the least, and more likely a couple of days before they can complete a pen, then they will do well. I had to work through that scenario myself, and tried several different finishes dues to an allergy to the CA. I was not satisfied with the results of most, mainly because I was rushing those slow finishes :rolleyes:. In the end, for me I was able to overcome the CA allergies with technology use.

That said, it comes back to human nature and a bit of psychology. In most flat work situations, cabinets, hutches, tables etc, many home woodworkers will spend a weeks worth of hours making a fine wood project but spend one day in finishing. The finishing process should take at least half as long as the making project. The Finish is what showcases the product. Time spent on the finish is a necessity. Don't shorten the finish.

In the pen world, it runs against the grain to spend hours or days on a pen project that took an hour to turn, but then that is where patience come in. It is a psychological game.

For those that need another finish other than CA, and use other finishes, spend the time needed! It will be well worth it.
 

sorcerertd

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Another factor about finishes is toxicity. For me, CA is extremely toxic. Anaphylaxis like toxic. I guess that is one of the reasons I've spent so much time hunting for an alternative finish...if I get exposed to CA fumes or dust, it causes severe respiratory issues, and they can last for a week or more. Pens Plus, on the other hand, or for that matter pretty much any friction polish, is harmless.

I wonder about other finishes. How toxic is oil-based poly? Polycrylic? Etc...

I have the "bible" of wood finishes...but...I don't recall much about how toxic each type of finish is from that book... Maybe I need to re-read it.

Toxicity is definitely something to consider, even with sawdust from certain woods. I love the smell of Tambooti, but I've heard it can cause not only respiratory issues, but even blindness in extreme cases. I wear a full face respirator when working with it. That being said, the toxicity would vary depending on ones sensitivities to specific ingredients. The same finish can be worse for some than others, your's being a case in point with CA. CA does bother me if I catch the fumes while it's drying, but with the DC on, I don't notice it at all.

In my shop, it's strong smells in general that I need to be wary of. My shop is in the basement near the laundry room and there is a craft room right next to it where my wife spends time. I have to warn her if I'm working with certain materials (rhinoplastic really stinks). If she walks in and smells it, she'll have an instant headache.
 

dogcatcher

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Back when I was actively selling game calls, my high end collector style calls would take a week or more of time from the first coat until the last coat, then another 2 or 3 weeks before they were buffed. Seems like an eternity, butthe end result was a deep natural finish that would match any high end custom gunsmith's stock finish.

I mixed my ow version of Tru Oil, extra mineral spirits for 2 coats, that were applied a day apart. Then 4 or 5 coats, one coat per day applied with a wet sand with a 24 hour drying period between coats, Up to 7 days now, then, the maybe another 2 or 4 more coats, It all depended on the wood and what the buyer expected. The wait a few weeks for the finish to cure and then a buffing job and an application of wax.

Sounds like a lot of work, but each day really only took a minute or 2. Clean up took longer than the actual time spent applying the finish. I would wait until I had about 6 ready to finish and do them all at the same time.
 

MedWoodWorx

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Another factor about finishes is toxicity. For me, CA is extremely toxic. Anaphylaxis like toxic. I guess that is one of the reasons I've spent so much time hunting for an alternative finish...if I get exposed to CA fumes or dust, it causes severe respiratory issues, and they can last for a week or more. Pens Plus, on the other hand, or for that matter pretty much any friction polish, is harmless.

I wonder about other finishes. How toxic is oil-based poly? Polycrylic? Etc...

I have the "bible" of wood finishes...but...I don't recall much about how toxic each type of finish is from that book... Maybe I need to re-read it.
You mean that you don't use a respirator and goggles? I cannot use ca without protective equipment.
 

MedWoodWorx

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It has been my purely subjective experience, that whitish can occur during moderately high humidity 65%-75% or more and at temps from about 75°-78°F (23C/25C) and below. A heated workshop helps.
I thought that humidity helps ca to cure. Yeah maybe some heat is the solution for winter months.
 

PatrickR

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How old is old? My ca bottle is no more than 6 months old
If you buy off the shelf it could be much older. I dont think there is a set expiration. A good indicator would be that it starts to act differently. I buy Glue Boost directly from them. That way you know when it was manufactured. Store it in a freezer until needed. (Don’t put it back in the freezer once opened)
 

leehljp

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I thought that humidity helps ca to cure. Yeah maybe some heat is the solution for winter months.
All one has to do is find the number of threads going back over years of wet sanding and clouding/whitishness showing up. Humidity in the air does not help. Those in very dry and very warm areas have no problem with CA curing quickly.

Water, not moisture, "can" bring about a cure in some cases but don't mix this thought with polyurethane glue which can and does benefit from the blank being wetted with water. (I don't wet those blanks that I use poly glue on because of the cloudiness that can occur. Also, the confusion comes from the word "moisture". Sometimes moisture is water itself; sometimes the word is used as humidity and the two are not the same in many cases.

CA: there are many versions of CA and some CA does react to moisture/water. Some CA reacts to other chemicals. Let me clarify myself on something. CA IS affected by humidity, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively and sometimes not at all. And the ambient temp seems to be the thing that determines how it is going to react. That plus the moisture content of the blank at the time of finishing.
 
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MedWoodWorx

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Are you using accelerator? When working in cold temps I am very hesitant to use it. I simply let it dry on its own and this can take awhile, don't rush it.
No i don't, actually i try to avoid any nasty chemical i can when penturning. I suspect that my humidity monitor is not that sensitive so the humidity could be 65ish% rh and also that the temperature falls during nightime below 15c(59 f).
 

MedWoodWorx

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If you buy off the shelf it could be much older. I dont think there is a set expiration. A good indicator would be that it starts to act differently. I buy Glue Boost directly from them. That way you know when it was manufactured. Store it in a freezer until needed. (Don’t put it back in the freezer once opened)
I buy penturning supplies only online since i cannot find what i want in stores where i live. I bought two bottles of starbond ca last summer. I keep em in my shed where temperatures are 10-20c during fall and around 10c (50 f) for the last month. I finished an oak pen last month (about early december -late november)so i don't think its a matter of ca quality but weather conditions.
 

MedWoodWorx

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All one has to do is find the number of threads going back over years of wet sanding and clouding/whitishness showing up. Humidity in the air does not help. Those in very dry and very warm areas have no problem with CA curing quickly.

Water, not moisture, "can" bring about a cure in some cases but don't mix this thought with polyurethane glue which can and does benefit from the blank being wetted with water. (I don't wet those blanks that I use poly glue on because of the cloudiness that can occur. Also, the confusion comes from the word "moisture". Sometimes moisture is water itself; sometimes the word is used as humidity and the two are not the same in many cases.

CA: there are many versions of CA and some CA does react to moisture/water. Some CA reacts to other chemicals. Let me clarify myself on something. CA IS affected by humidity, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively and sometimes not at all. And the ambient temp seems to be the thing that determines how it is going to react. That plus the moisture content of the blank at the time of finishing.
You might have a point there since the blank i used was not that dry ( about 12% humidity) but i was too eager to wait.
 

jrista

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Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
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Location
Colorado
You mean that you don't use a respirator and goggles? I cannot use ca without protective equipment.
Oh I do. I own the Sundstrom PAPR, and use the highest grade filters that bond with organic acids and other stuff. I also have a full face respirator with the mustard and pink filters. Thing is, sometimes small amounts of fumes still get through...and it doesn't take much for me.
 
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