China info....

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Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
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China and Chinese is frequently mentioned here and I want to share some information I have learned. I am not interested in debate about good or bad quality or pricing. Just some things about doing business.

1. All of China is not the same. Hong Kong for instance is Chinese - but it is a Special Administrative Region that is not governed like the rest of China. It's currency is the Hong Kong Dollar not he Renminbi which is the currency of the rest of mainland China. It's local government in most respects is different also, with many political parties and an independent judiciary.

2. Companies doing business from Hong Kong are driven by a profit motive just as companies in most of the world are. Companies in other parts of China may well be driven by a "market share" motive (much as the Japanese and Koreans were a few years back) making their "profit" on currency exchange.

3. Because of 1 and 2 above, and because of their many years as a British Colony, in most respects dealing with Hong Kong companies is going to be similar to dealing with other foreign companies. They want your business, they want happy customers and they want repeat business. Like wise the problems they face raising capital, borrowing funds, cost of labor, etc are much the same as in the rest of the world. The going labor rate in Hong Kong is much higher than the rest of the mainland. The Peoples Republic of China does not tell them what to make or how to make it....the market does.

4. It is not easy dealing with Chinese companies, even those based in Hong Kong, because of time differences and language problems - you really have to make sure they understand what you are asking. I will say the same thing about dealing with Taiwanese companies. They all seem to hesitate to work off and invoice for an order and send you a bill after the item ships. They also seem to hesitate to carry enough stock to fill any size order to speak of.

5. The companies based in Hong Kong do not seem to be interested in "dumping". At least not in our (pen component) market - they produce to order which not a characteristic of dumping.

6. They do not hesitate to copy. Most of the copies they introduce they do at the request of a customer, who sends them a kit and asks them to duplicate it. Recently they have begun changing the names of the kits they copy. They have reached the point where they will take on about any kit you might ask them to copy. They rarely if ever, just copy something without a customer - they are not big on risk taking.

Now when you get out of Hong Kong (and Macau) you are in a different world, where the rules are going to be somewhat different. I don't have enough nerve to try that. They have a totally unfamiliar business model.

I hope some of you who deal with or expect to deal with the Chinese will find something useful in this.
 
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If you send a "kit" to them, they can copy it and little can be done. But, if they then ship that "kit" to you and you sell it here (USA or Canada or Mexico), American patents and trademarks are very enforceable. And VERY expensive to litigate.
 
If you send a "kit" to them, they can copy it and little can be done. But, if they then ship that "kit" to you and you sell it here (USA or Canada or Mexico), American patents and trademarks are very enforceable. And VERY expensive to litigate.
Well that is a different issue. Actually the trade mark is the name or the logo not the item itself, so a company might ask you to use a different name I have never heard of one (pen kit related) asking anyone to stop selling.

I have serious doubts that there is much of anything in a pen kit that can be patented where patent infringment can be claimed. The basic parts would have been in the public domain for years....maybe if someone invented a really good transmission that worked.....
 
Many years ago I had a copier customer who was a noted patent attorney.

He used to watch for people using names similar to my company, then ask me if I was "ok" with that. Usually, they were far removed so it was no big deal.

However, I did object to one and he "fired off a letter" explaining to them what it would cost each of us (about 1980, into six figures) to fight about this matter and encouraging them to find a different name.

You don't have to be able to win, if you can drive the other side into bankruptcy.
 
Many years ago I had a copier customer who was a noted patent attorney.

He used to watch for people using names similar to my company, then ask me if I was "ok" with that. Usually, they were far removed so it was no big deal.

However, I did object to one and he "fired off a letter" explaining to them what it would cost each of us (about 1980, into six figures) to fight about this matter and encouraging them to find a different name.

You don't have to be able to win, if you can drive the other side into bankruptcy.
I agree you can do that with the name....that can be done under common law even if the trademark isnt registered.

However patent infringement is a horse of a different color. To even claim patent infringement you must first own an unexpired patent. I'd almost be willing to wager there isn't a single US patent (pen kit related) issued to any pen kit supplier in the country. Certainly I've not seen any claimed in their catalogs. Plating is the one area where there might be but even the companies that claim "unique" plating processes don't seem to be claiming to have a patent on the process. At least none that I've seen.
 
LOL, now I know..........who!!!! Trade Marks are enforceable ask Nascar you can't use the word Nascar alone but if you own a collectible store that deals in sports collectibles you can use the word in this context R & D NASCAR COLLECTIBLES, I at one time owned R&D Nascar Collectibles, and Nascar at one time send a treating letter, but backed off when we sent them 131 examples of the use of the word Nascar in sports collectible stores across the country. Coke could not stop other soft drink companies from using the second half of it's trademark name Cola ie: Pepsi, RC etc. Right now I am changing the name on a component set on my site as one of the Larger vendors had their attorney contact me even thought I have applied for a trade mark with a portion of the larger companies trade marked name as that name hadn't been trade marked, but in the spirit of goodwill have changed it.
 
Hmmmmm

Never heard of a renmibi...I thoguht Chinese currency was based on the yuan...
Regardless of which you choose - it isn't Hong Kong Dollars.....which was the point.
Renminbi: Chinese Currency is called Renminbi (RMB or CNY) means "People's Currency" in Chinese language.
Unit: Yuan, Jiao (some times called "Mao " ) and Fen. 1 Yuan = 10 Jiao (Mao); 1 Jiao = 10 Fen.
 
My sister and brother-in-law have been buying from Hong Kong and China for 20 years. They buy containers of wicker and ratan furniture as well as hand painted items. When they first started, they had to pay up front. Sometimes a container would total $50,000, which was quite a lot of money 20 years ago. Now they have established lines of credit, so they can order in the summer for October and not have to pay until after the Christmas season. When they began buying direct from the factories in China, my brother-in-law would travel to these factories. Person to person contact was crucial. That's just the beginning of buying direct. These containers are carried on huge ships which loose containers on the high seas on a regular basis. While they've never had that happen to them, they have had a container put a hold by customs which can take weeks to be cleared.
 
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I have a bit of experience (50 yrs) with Hong Kong and Chinese. The original post is interesting in that its observations and conclusions are apparently the result of study and thought rather than actually going there and dealing with the people. I agree with all the points made, and emphasize the cautiousness of the Chinese character, regardless of linguistic group. They have a long history of disaster being just around the corner. Care and caution is needed to survive. Not much is taken at face value.
 
Smitty...you speak Chinese? Awesomeness!





Scott (I don't even know English that well) B
No, the people I deal with speak English - some better than others and it at times takes a number of communications to make sure they are going to build exactly what I want them to build.

"platnium" pen kits ordered by me thinking they were Rhodium - turned out to be white gold - which some might remember I had to offer my buyers their money back.
 
I have a bit of experience (50 yrs) with Hong Kong and Chinese. The original post is interesting in that its observations and conclusions are apparently the result of study and thought rather than actually going there and dealing with the people. I agree with all the points made, and emphasize the cautiousness of the Chinese character, regardless of linguistic group. They have a long history of disaster being just around the corner. Care and caution is needed to survive. Not much is taken at face value.
You are right - I've been dealing with Chinese only for a couple of years and have never gone there.

My observations are based on those dealings and reading and a lot of contact with two or three companies.

I also remember that until 1997 Hong Kong and the surrounding area was a British Colony When it was turned over to China, China (not wanting western financial centers and financial services to leave) set up the area as a Special Region leaving the local government pretty much in tact.
 
Never heard of a renmibi...I thoguht Chinese currency was based on the yuan...
Regardless of which you choose - it isn't Hong Kong Dollars.....which was the point.
Renminbi: Chinese Currency is called Renminbi (RMB or CNY) means "People's Currency" in Chinese language.
Unit: Yuan, Jiao (some times called "Mao " ) and Fen. 1 Yuan = 10 Jiao (Mao); 1 Jiao = 10 Fen.

I don't know if they still do, but I seem to remember back in the mid '80's that China operated one currency internally and one currency internationally... they would play games with the conversions between the two and often try to pay international vendors in the domestic currency, then convert it to the international currency because it would come out to a lesser amount... some of the letters of credits and customers I handled in those days worked in high 6 figures up into the lower 8 figure numbers... a percentage point or two in the conversion made a big difference in the final payment.
I think the Renminbi was the domestic currency and the Yaun the international.... it's been a few years and I've been out of the market place for a while so things may have changed...
 
SOMETHING LIKE THAT

Never heard of a renmibi...I thoguht Chinese currency was based on the yuan...
Regardless of which you choose - it isn't Hong Kong Dollars.....which was the point.
Renminbi: Chinese Currency is called Renminbi (RMB or CNY) means "People's Currency" in Chinese language.
Unit: Yuan, Jiao (some times called "Mao " ) and Fen. 1 Yuan = 10 Jiao (Mao); 1 Jiao = 10 Fen.

I don't know if they still do, but I seem to remember back in the mid '80's that China operated one currency internally and one currency internationally... they would play games with the conversions between the two and often try to pay international vendors in the domestic currency, then convert it to the international currency because it would come out to a lesser amount... some of the letters of credits and customers I handled in those days worked in high 6 figures up into the lower 8 figure numbers... a percentage point or two in the conversion made a big difference in the final payment.
I think the Renminbi was the domestic currency and the Yaun the international.... it's been a few years and I've been out of the market place for a while so things may have changed...
You are close but not quite on it. Renminbi is the Chinese word for "peoples currency" Yaun is the currency unit....They do tend to keep the price of the Yaun at a artificial level against the dollar which currently is the standard in which most international transactions are settled. This does give them a trade advantage vis-a-vis the USA. Japan also did this for many years and other nations have as well. We have a tendency to let other nations take such advantage of us in such matters.
 
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