Stabilization Cheapest wood stabilization method

[WoodfulProjects]

Heya all,

As said on one of my previous threads, I was conducting some researches to find some cheaper method to stabilize pen blanks (wood in general).
The alternative to Cactus Juice in my country sells around 50€/L (maybe few € less now) which is tremendously expensive.
I was thus looking for other stabilization methods but had one condition : it should be heat activated stabilization (thermosetting).
Found quite few components which will be documented through several videos/test.

Here is the first one. Just note that I'm not a professionnal "tester" nor a chemist. The purpose here is to find a cheaper alternative to cactus juice and share with the community. May you have found the video interesting or usefull, please drop a thumbs up. I do not make any money on youtube, nor have I a sponsor, so the thumbs up is the only satisfaction I could get from a video that has cost me around 100€ just for a test .

The first test consist of comparing 3 paraloids (B44, B67 and B72). For those who dont know (like me few months ago) what paraloid is, it is a theromplastic resin mostly used for fossil conservation (hardening/stabilization). Why these 3 varieties? Because these were the most accessible in my country.

I'll share here the comparison results (based on my subjectivity I mean objectivity). On the second picture below, it shows the result of 4 turned blanks and all of them have a 1 pass CA Glue finish and sanded up to 400 grit. Honestly, if I had gone with micromesh up to higher grits I would have gotten glass like finish (only with 1 CA glue pass). The X one is the cactus juice stabilized.

Some attention points to keep in mind. The mixture obtained (acetone + resin) is quite strong. Please wear proper respiration device and try to ventilate as much as possible. If I could do this test differently, I'll try with a less "aggressive" solvent than Acetone. As for the consistency, I was trying to reach a similar to cactus juice consistency. I thouhg first that a 10% ratio (by weight) would do but it wasn't the case. It was water like, too runny. I increased the quantities until I reached a lightly syrupy consistency (still runny but has some body) -> up to 30% ratio (eg: 150 resin / 500 acetone).

Do I think that this test was conclusive? Yes. You'll see on the video how punky/rotten/spalted the wood was. Without any stabilization the blank would have flown around the shop during the turning.

Feel free to ask if you have any question.

 

[1080Wayne]

Very interesting . Now I know what to preserve my old bones with (bison and dinosaur , not personal ones) . By shattery , I assume you are referring to resin crystals on the outside of the stabilized blank , not the blank itself . Thank you very much for giving me a new avenue to explore .
I would expect to see about 50 % weight gain on those blanks with Cactus juice . Was there much bleeding out upon the blanks after cooking them ?

 

[JohnU]

Makes me wonder if this would eliminate the occasional cracking of antler after being turned.

 

[ccccchunt]

I know about 20 years ago there were a lot of people experimenting with dissolving Plexiglas in Acetone. Not sure of their results but I'm sure there are articles in the resource section on it.

 

[Darios]

Just note that I'm not a professionnal "tester" nor a chemist.

Heh. We had a show here called Mythbusters where the premise was to take what people believed aka myths and subject it to examination. One of the staff's catch phrase was "the only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down"

About how much

 

[leehljp]

I know about 20 years ago there were a lot of people experimenting with dissolving Plexiglas in Acetone. Not sure of their results but I'm sure there are articles in the resource section on it.

I did that for a few months and it worked OK. I was not persistent enough to get consistent results, but the main reason was that I loved using bloodwood in segments and the acetone/plexiglas would leach the bloodwood! But Bloodwood itself didn't need stabilizing in the way that I used it.

That said, there were a number of ways people tried stabilizing at home way back when:
• oil based polyurethane finish, thinned
• white/yellow glue thinned (It seems like I read of this only once or twice at the most)
• acetone/plexiglas as mentioned
It seems like there was another or two experiments, but Cactus Juice quickly gave most everyone what they needed.

This thread is very interesting. Thanks Gen for your work.

 

[Paul in OKC]

I remember the acetone/plexi stuff. I thought most only used it for a finish, though.

 

[leehljp]

I remember the acetone/plexi stuff. I thought most only used it for a finish, though.

yes it was, but I do remember someone else, besides me trying it as a stabilizer. I also tried it as a finish and was not happy with it, as it had a learning curve different from CA and I just grew impatient trying to learn it. There is someone, maybe two or three that do occasionally use it as a finish now. It was mentioned a few months ago.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

Thanks all.

Very interesting . Now I know what to preserve my old bones with (bison and dinosaur , not personal ones) . By shattery , I assume you are referring to resin crystals on the outside of the stabilized blank , not the blank itself . Thank you very much for giving me a new avenue to explore .
I would expect to see about 50 % weight gain on those blanks with Cactus juice . Was there much bleeding out upon the blanks after cooking them ?

Exactly. Didn't document it on the video (actually i should have) but the ratio increase with cactus juice is between 40 and 50% on the same type of blanks. Not that much bleeding after the curing process. When cut in half, I can clearly see that fibers are nut punky but "dense" as resin has remained inside the blank. As for the "shattery" term... you're right, I do refer to the outside. My mothertongue being not english, sometime I struggle finding appropriate words .

Makes me wonder if this would eliminate the occasional cracking of antler after being turned.

Never turned antler "horn" but if there's cracking during the turning process, B67 may do the trick.

 

[wimkluck]

Woodfulprojects Her a link for stabilizer. It it is, according to me, the same as catus juice. https://mappatools.com/en/product/impregnating-resin-5-liter/ Costs 150 euro's for 5 liters. plus shipping Netherlands-Belgium. I have good results.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

Hi Wim, thanks for the link.
I'll hardly come back to commercial products since the stabilizing resin i make (acetone + paraloid) costs me between 4 and 5€/L instead of 30€ or 40€.

 

[leehljp]

Gen,
This was/is very interesting. I had never heard of Paraloid B44 or B67 or B72, or Paraloid in any form before your post. I Looked up Paraloid and came up with the most references to B72, and from there, found different links, and uses of the B72 and different dessolvables, such as different grades and types of alcohol. I was surprised to find references to it being used on piano hammers to finely tune (my term) the hammer head for right ping/tone/sound, (again, my terms) - but it was effectively used by some professional tuners and musicians with PHDs.

Very Interesting.

That said, I appreciate you sharing this. I go months and even a year or so without needing to a stabilizer and then need some. This is an ideal way to make and use only as much as needed when I need it.

 

[PatrickR]

I like the idea but would be concerned about the effect of acetone on the pump and the very flammable nature of it.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

I like the idea but would be concerned about the effect of acetone on the pump and the very flammable nature of it.

Absolutely nothing to be worried in terms of flamability as far as basic security measures are taken. The same measures as when you use shellac to varnish you wood or when you use acetone on a usual basis (cleaning, etc).
BUT! regarding the effect of acetone on the pump, you couldn't be more right. It has indeed an effect, at least on my 40€ pump...
Did not mention it on my post by joints are weaken by the corrosive effect of the acetone. Worse, the thing that spins inside the oil chamber (sorry I have no idea what it is called -> it a sort of plastic thing in the middle of a metal cylinder) it was stuck because it had increased size because of the acetone present in the oil. I can confirm that the acetone vapors land in the oil! Probably there are other symptoms that I haven't yet noticed... But maybe this is because of the continuous use I did. Multiple batches (not only the ones on the video). If you do use it once in a while, I wonder if it still has major effects on the vacuum pump.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

Gen,
This was/is very interesting. I had never heard of Paraloid B44 or B67 or B72, or Paraloid in any form before your post. I Looked up Paraloid and came up with the most references to B72, and from there, found different links, and uses of the B72 and different dessolvables, such as different grades and types of alcohol. I was surprised to find references to it being used on piano hammers to finely tune (my term) the hammer head for right ping/tone/sound, (again, my terms) - but it was effectively used by some professional tuners and musicians with PHDs.

Very Interesting.

That said, I appreciate you sharing this. I go months and even a year or so without needing to a stabilizer and then need some. This is an ideal way to make and use only as much as needed when I need it.

Glad you could find it useful. It is indeed used for piano hammers. Came to this during my researches

 

[Curly]

I was curious so did some poking around and I found some sellers here call the product Acryloid B44, B67 & B72. In other words two names for the same product. Knowing it may expand possible sources closer to home or better cost.

 

[derekdd]

Very cool experiment, thanks. I found a source for paraloid B44 from a museum services company. Apparently, it is used to stabilize bones, fossils, and stone by archeologists and museums.

Soluble in Toluene, Xylenes, Acetone and Methyl Ethyl Ketone. I'd have to do a bit of digging around to see if any of these solvents would be better than acetone.

This topic is quite relevant to me as I'm considering getting the equipment to stabilize blanks. Thanks, again.

 

[endacoz]

Very cool experiment, thanks. I found a source for paraloid B44 from a museum services company. Apparently, it is used to stabilize bones, fossils, and stone by archeologists and museums.

Soluble in Toluene, Xylenes, Acetone and Methyl Ethyl Ketone. I'd have to do a bit of digging around to see if any of these solvents would be better than acetone.

This topic is quite relevant to me as I'm considering getting the equipment to stabilize blanks. Thanks, again.

Cactus juice has no none solvents. Acetone and the like wont touch it that's why I stabilize with it for years now. I'd rather stabilize with something that won't be ruined by elements or acid. I sell stabilized burls and material to open turners, knifemaker, Luther's and more.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

Cactus juice has no none solvents. Acetone and the like wont touch it that's why I stabilize with it for years now. I'd rather stabilize with something that won't be ruined by elements or acid. I sell stabilized burls and material to open turners, knifemaker, Luther's and more.

Well, not according to my experience. Cactus Juice do reacts with things. One of those things being the acrylic lid of your vacuum (provided that you have an acylic lid). It will react with acrylic and create cracks on the surface. From what I've seen, the cracks remain on the surface and do not dig deeper. However, I've came accross some posts/videos saying that because of the cracks and the pressure, an implosion had occured.
This said, in comparison with acetone, CJ didn't have any impact on my vacuum pump. So yeah, if you can afford 40-50€/L, CJ is the way to go.

 

[Mortalis]

Soluble in Toluene, Xylenes, Acetone and Methyl Ethyl Ketone. I'd have to do a bit of digging around to see if any of these solvents would be better than acetone.

Solvents such as above have been taken out of the operations of all general manufacturing processes for a reason. They are all carcinogenic.
Along with the high volatility of them I hope everyone involved is hyper cautious of this process. That is a main reason Cactus juice is so popluar in the main stream wood working arenas.

 

[PatrickR]

IF I were to do this (Im not) it would only be outdoors. The exhaust from the pump will contain acetone vapors. Also acetone evaporates at a very fast rate, it would seem impossible to maintain a consistent ratio. I use about a gallon of CJ a year. Too many downsides to this approach.

 

[wimkluck]

Well, not according to my experience. Cactus Juice do reacts with things. One of those things being the acrylic lid of your vacuum (provided that you have an acylic lid). It will react with acrylic and create cracks on the surface. From what I've seen, the cracks remain on the surface and do not dig deeper. However, I've came accross some posts/videos saying that because of the cracks and the pressure, an implosion had occured.
This said, in comparison with acetone, CJ didn't have any impact on my vacuum pump. So yeah, if you can afford 40-50€/L, CJ is the way to go.

I had the same experience with the "plastic"lid. The Question is: is this due to the catus juice or the pressure/vacuum?
Here in Europe you need to take a careful look if its acetone what you buy and not a alternatief.

 

[PatrickR]

I had the same experience with the "plastic"lid. The Question is: is this due to the catus juice or the pressure/vacuum?
Here in Europe you need to take a careful look if its acetone what you buy and not a alternatief.

I think it's the CJ, a well known reaction. It would take a chemist to explain it. I made sure to buy a chamber with a glass lid because of it. in A shop I worked in that flame polished acrylic I saw it crack from simple exposure to alcohol fumes. In liquid form CJ will remove alcohol based inks, like a sharpie.

 

[WoodfulProjects]

Solvents such as above have been taken out of the operations of all general manufacturing processes for a reason. They are all carcinogenic.

This seems scary tbh. However, tried to look it up and not sure if acetone is carcinogenic. At least no real studies have proven it so far.
This said, I'm pretty sure it's not healthy either so you are probably right that people should be aware of what they're doing and the risk they're occuring.

As for me, next batches will be done outside which is safer.

 

[Mortalis]

This seems scary tbh. However, tried to look it up and not sure if acetone is carcinogenic. At least no real studies have proven it so far.
This said, I'm pretty sure it's not healthy either so you are probably right that people should be aware of what they're doing and the risk they're occuring.

As for me, next batches will be done outside which is safer.

If you look at the SDS for Acetone it does say it is not carinogenic but all the other issues it presents are enough for me to not want to unnecessarily muck around with it. Have I in the past? Yes and I have used it to clean stubborn stuff off my skin but not any longer.
Since its vapors are heavier than air you dont know it until it's to late. The vacuum will be purging those vapors in the process and that is when the caution really needs to be taken.
PLease use every precaution when using Actone.

 

[leehljp]

I don't deal with acetone as much as I do CA, but my hands are in contact with it more intensely than CA is - except for the CA fumes. AND CA fumes are far more damaging to me than Acetone so far. That said, I take several precautionary steps when using CA, and a a regular basis.