Cartridge Pens from “live” ammo – yes, seriously – help!!!

[duncan]

Hi Guys & Gals

I fancied doing a couple of pens from rifle cartridges but we don't have the same gun laws here in Europe as exist in the US, so ammunition isn't easy to come by…

Imagine my happiness at finding what looked like a couple of suitable 'complete' casings with leads at a flea market. I was assured these were 're-made as replicas from correct parts'. When I eased the lead tip out of the first one I realised that these were actually 'live rounds'…

I've taken the main charges out and flashed them off in the garden but I obviously have live primer caps still in the shell casing. Not knowing anything about primer caps, can these be drilled safely from the inside (to preserve the 'look' of the casing) if I use plenty of lubricant to keep the drill cool?

I realise that hitting the primer cap with a blunt centre-punch is a more fun method of disabling them but, after 40 years of woodworking, I still have all my fingers and I'd like to keep things that way…

The cartridges are both marked as "7.62" (0.3 inch?) but I can get slimline tubes inside so it should be 'do-able' I guess. I have no idea if the heads are tracer type or not but maybe somebody can tell from the photos…

Any advice on this problem (or making cartridge pens in general) would be very welcome.

Thanks

Duncan

 

[KiltedGunn]

I'm still a 1-pen noob and haven't made a cartridge pen myself yet, but I know a thing or two about bullets...

First, it doesn't look like a tracer round...it would have a red or green phosphorous ring around the tip and it does not appear to have one in the photo.

As for popping out the primer, you can safely do this with a punch from the INSIDE...gentle taps are usually sufficient...if you're worried about it, simply put a drop of oil inside it and let it sit awhile before messing with it.

You could use your punch with a press as well. Just make sure the primer has somewhere to drop out To.

Hope this helps!

Lee aka KiltedGunn
www.TexasMattings.com

 

[jskeen]

well, let me give the official company line first. Don't mess with live primers, find somebody that can safely deal with them.

Now, that being said, It is quite possible to set off a live primer in the shell casing WITH THE POWDER AND BULLET removed without having the local bomb squad show up or removing digits or anything too dramatic. Simply mount the cartridge in a vise or something similar with the open end pointed in a safe direction (IE, outside, into open air, with nothing in front of it that might get blown back in your direction) and While wearing safety glasses (just in case) hold a rounded tip punch on the primer and rap it with a hammer. Don't use a pointed or flat tip punch, cause if you do manage to penetrate the thin metal outer cap on the primer, some hot gasses and particles will be heading back at you. You will get a fairly loud bang, but nothing worse than a normal firecracker. The danger with primers is mostly when the hot gasses from the explosion are confined by something (like a punch inserted in through the mouth of the casing) giving them a chance to build up pressure and force things to fly around at high velocities.

Now that being said, I would never dream of doing that myself, or advising anybody to do so (said my barrister).

James

 

[jskeen]

Lee, you typed that while I was typing mine. I gotta disagree with you on this one, using a punch to drive out a primer from inside a casing is dangerous. The punch makes a very good projectile in the wrong circumstances and as an added danger, is usually pointed at some body part or another when being tapped out. Safer to set off the primer unconfined and then remove it, or even safer, let somebody who is equipped do it.

Sorry, but can't let that go unremarked.

James

 

[Dario]

3rd picture gets me confused. Looks like there is a solid material...almost like lead still and seems like the powder may still be further inside.

Not knowledgeable with these much but I did play around with some live cartridge when I was young and this doesn't look right.

Can anyone look/check this more?

 

[jskeen]

Dario;

I think that third picture is of the base of the bullet, not the mouth of the casing. In most military type rounds even though the copper jacket is solid at the tip, (hence full metal jacket) is is usually open at the base, showing the lead.

But, of course I could be wrong.

 

[Dario]

Looks like you are right and I hope you are.

I just thought that he took the picture of the casing from both sides of the vise and it really looked wrong.

Thanks!

 

[dogcatcher]

Dario, I believe that it the back of the bullet, and not looking down the shell case.

I advise against trying to remove the primer. if you must first soak it in WD40 for a day or so, then soak it in water for a day or 2. Then say a long final prayer, next follow the instructions of trying to fire off the primer with a hammer and punch. If you get no bang you might be safe to drill it out, but I would say another prayer before proceeding.

The 7.62 shell is a NATO round and almost identical to the 308 cartridge that a lot of the pens are made from. The library has the instructions for setting the 7mm tube in to it.

Marvin

 

[Mudder]

That is a 7.62 x 51 nato round. It is interchangeable with the .308.

Be VERY, VERY, VERY careful with it because that particular round is a military round and is made to withstand very harsh environments so I would be very Leary to think that a simple oil soak would kill the primer.

What about putting the cartridge in a piece of PVC tube about 4 ft long and dropping a center punch down the tube to hit the primer. I don't think there would be enough force to push the punch back up the tube, especially if it in not tight to the floor.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

I dunno Scott... I believe they have a name for that, what is it now? Oh yea! A mortar!

 

[Dr. Frank N. Stein]

The third photo is the projectile, it is inert. Safe with the exception of being 'LEAD'.

The primer is a whole nother story. DO NOT ATTEMPT to press it out of the casing. It also will not be rendered inert by filling it with any liquid.

Putting it in a vise and striking it isn't really a safe method to discharge it either. I have seen this done many times and many times I have seen close calls while other times it makes just a very loud bang. Most of the time in a vise it can split the casing

You should just be well aware that the primer is in fact a dangerous component on a shell that large. FWIW

 

[bad]

Duncan:
Unless you're an expert, which you aren't if you're asking us this question, I have only one piece of advice for you. DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Let me put it another way, DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you mess with a live round nothing good will happen. If you want some brass for making pens then simply post a request on this site and I'm sure one of the members in the USA would be happy to send you some new unused (so it won't set off the bomb sniffing devices) brass at cost plus shipping. But Duncan please, DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

 

[Mudder]

I dunno Scott... I believe they have a name for that, what is it now? Oh yea! A mortar!

I beg to differ Lee,

A mortar is closed on the end whereas a hollow tube would allow the charge to dissipate through the bottom. Another thing is that once you drop the punch you should move away quickly. The only truly safe way would be to chamber the cartridge in a gun and fire the primer I would suspect that my way is a heck of a lot safer that holding a punch in your hand and smacking it with a hammer.

BTW: I have personally used the method that I described to deaden some old style corrosive primers in some .30-06 cases when I used to shoot a lot.

 

[NewLondon88]

DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Let me put it another way, DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you mess with a live round nothing good will happen. Duncan please, DON'T MESS WITH A LIVE ROUND UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

So .. just what are you trying to tell us?

 

[Scotty]

You guys scare me. I agree with Bruce.

 

[Fred]

You state ... "I was assured these were 're-made as replicas from correct parts'. When I eased the lead tip out of the first one I realised that these were actually 'live rounds'…

The first clue to me that this information is completely wrong is from your middle photograph. The small dimpled punch mark next to the primer pocket is an indication that the rounds are military in nature. Any private individual reloading bullets does not have a safe and adequate method of seating primers in this way. This is a very complicated procedure to safely perform.

The 7.62 is a NATO round. Looking at the primer this particular round has the primer seated with a secondary 'crimp' thus identifying it as a military round. This crimp is to ensure the primer is not lost during combat/training/rough handling etc.

This is evident in the middle photograph as there is a small circular punch spot at the very edge of the primer itself. This wedges the edge of the primer hole and ensures the primer is solidly held in place. Primers that have this treatment are often harder to remove from the casing than normal during any attempts at reloading the cartridge. Some primers were crimped around the entire edge of the primer pocket and these are quite often very hard to properly remove.

As long as you have removed the projectile (bullet) and emptied the powder from the cartridge about the only thing you may/might/probably experience is a loud 'pop' when you strike the primer. As long as whatever you use to try to remove the primer is smaller than the opening where the bullet was seated is a good bit smaller then you are safe to punch out the primer. DO NOT USE ANYTHING THAT MATCHES THE DIAMETER OF THE OPENING WHERE THE BULLET WAS INSERTED.

There is a small 'flash hole' in the base of the cartridge that allows the flash from the primer to enter and set off the powder charge. This is the hole where you need a punch to enter from the inside. Otherwise you stand a great chance of ruining the cartridge due to deforming the primer pocket. This would make drilling the primer pocket cleanly a bit harder to accomplish.

I have reloaded tens of thousands of rounds during my shooting career. Messing with a live round of any caliber is always dangerous if you do not understand the explosive properties of CONFINED POWDER. But, since you have emptied the round I can advise you to proceed carefully and just expect the possibility of a small loud pop from when you crush the primer from either the inside or the outside. We had a small punch that looked like a blunt ice pick to use that fit the flash opening perfectly. This 'tool' was case hardened as the secondary crimp was too strong for a regular ice pick.

Do not look down into the top as you try to punch it out as some gases or unburned powder may fly out and strike you on the hand or in the face.

Soaking the primer in any fine oil (WD40) is a good and acceptable method of making the silver fulcrimate inert. The silver fulcrimate is the explosive portion of the primer that is crushed when the firing pin strikes the primer base and forces the small anvil against the small drop of silver fulcrimate in the primer.

A very easy way to safely detonate the primer is to simply set the cartridge primer end down on top of the stove eye and turn the stove on. Walk away and let the heat detonate the primer. Return and pick it up off the floor/stove. Remember the cartridge will be hot!

BE DAMNED SURE YOU DO NOT EVER DO ANYTHING WITH A COMPLETELY FILLED CARTRIDGE!

If you do and do not remove the bullet first and then empty every bit of the powder first you are messing with a miniature bomb that will cause grave body injury. Expect to be badly hurt or to hurt someone else. Either way it is just stupid to heat any completely charged bullet of any caliber.

If you are not comfortable working with this type of thing walk away and find another project to work on.

Another point, If you place an unfired round into the jaws of a vise and close down improperly ... you take the chance of crushing the primer which quite possibly will detonate the primer. NOW you have a new problem and maybe even some serious injuries. It doesn't take much to set these primers off at all!

The BEST and SAFEST method is to obtain fired rounds from someone with a rifle.

 

[Mudder]

Fred,

I have also hand loaded tens of thousands of rifle and pistol cartridges and I must disagree with you on some points.

The main reason for a crimped primer was to avoid a primer "backing out" thus jamming the weapon.

Secondly, I have had some military cases that I had completely soaked in WD-40 for 6 months and the primer still went off. I would agree with you is this was a commercial case but the military ones are made to a different specification.

Also, if you are removing the primer from the inside then you have to be sure that it is a "boxer" primer and not a "berdan". How many decapping pins have you bent or broke? Sadly, I have to admit that I've broken my share.


I do agree with you about detonating the primer with heat, I was going to suggest that today but you beat me to it. Perhaps he could suspend the cartridge over a candle flame OUTSIDE.

I also agree that this is NOT something to take lightly. I once had a primer for a .50 cal go off when I was pressing it in and it scorched the ceiling 4 1/2 feet above it.

 

[bad]

So .. just what are you trying to tell us?

LMAO

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm still a 1-pen noob and haven't made a cartridge pen myself yet, but I know a thing or two about bullets...

First, it doesn't look like a tracer round...it would have a red or green phosphorous ring around the tip and it does not appear to have one in the photo.

As for popping out the primer, you can safely do this with a punch from the INSIDE...gentle taps are usually sufficient...if you're worried about it, simply put a drop of oil inside it and let it sit awhile before messing with it.

You could use your punch with a press as well. Just make sure the primer has somewhere to drop out To.

Hope this helps!

Lee aka KiltedGunn
www.TexasMattings.com

DO NOT ACCEPT THIS ADVICE!!! VERY DANGEROUS!!!

Only after deactivating the primers should you even consider messing with them. Soaked for a while with light oil should do it, then punch out.
BTW, the round you have would be know in the Colonies as a .308. For many it is the 7.62 X 51 mm NATO round. One of the four most common rounds in the world.

 

[StatProf]

I'd like to add my "just don't do it" $0.02. I have a gun in my shop that is used to drive nails into concrete and metal. The load that I use to send these nails into concrete and metal? A 22 primer. Now consider that a 22 is loads lighter (pun intended) than a 308 and you will see where I am going. My thought is that the only safe way is to find someone with a "fired" casing. Since you already have the lead, you could just then pair these up. I have no idea what UK laws would prevent you from ordering some from eBay, but this might be your best bet. I would hate to see an email in a month that began "Here's what NOT to do . . ." One other idea is to find someone with a weapon that could fire this primer off for you. This is probably the safest way known. If you live near a university, try the physics lab. They sometimes have pretty cool setups that could easily discharge this for you. In the lab at my university, they have a pretty neat setup for measuring inertia whereby they discharge bullets out of a "homemade gun."

FWIW,
StatProf

 

[LostintheWoods]

Okay, now, you guys are scaring the bejeezus outta me, and I'm fearless! My advice would be to soak the aforementioned primed case for 6 months minimum in WD40, then take it far away from civilization and bury it. Then, come back and post a request for unprimed cases, and I'm sure someone here will happily send you a few, maybe even for free, or just the shipping cost, just to keep you from blowing off your fingers, or shooting your eye out!

 

[drayman]

duncan, i agree with fred. 12 years in the british army as a weapon training instructor, ive knocked the primer out a few times,,,, when i was young and stupid. pm me your address and i will send you some already done incl the full metal jacket. be safe

 

[Scotty]

I repeat.....you guys are scaring me. Leave this thing along. Do not attempt to punch that primer out. Too many fired cases to be had to mess with a live'un. LEAVE IT ALONE!

 

[seawolf]

Safest way is to find a person with a rifle chambered to that bullet and have him/her fire the primer in the rifle. Also they may be able to supply you with a few more spent rounds for your pen making. Mark

 

[bad]

OK, this is at least the second thread that I have participated in where someone was asking how to remove the primer from a shell casing. If you abolutely have to remove the primer from that cartridge, then please do us all a favour. Take a video camera and record the whole process. Then when it's all over your widdow or care giver can post the video on utube. That way the next time someone wants to know how to remove the primer we can simply refer him or her to the utube video rather than going through this lengthy discussion.

 

[randyrls]

As a quick reply, go check out this thread:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=38864&highlight=casings

 

[duncan]

Hi All

Thanks for all the responses. There seems to be a split-vote on whether it's safe or not so, unadventurous old thing that I am, I am going to opt on the side of caution and get hold of some once-fired casings and tips…

Just to add to the anguish of the 'bury them and run far, far away' camp, I actually had them rattling around in my trouser pocket as complete cartridges when I was under the impression that they were dummy rounds – maybe I wouldn't have been able to write the original post if they hadn't been the more robust military-spec rounds?

The responses have taught me a lot about ammo that I never knew before and I now know how to tell a military round from a non-military one…

Thanks again – it has been a delight to read your replies, laugh at the humour and know that there is so much knowledge out there that so many people are willing to share…

As a 'sidebar' we used to dissolve polystyrene in petrol (gasoline) to get a sort of napalm, dip tennis balls in it and fire them out of a closed-base drainpipe by igniting them with a long twig through a hole at the bottom of the tube – now that was a mortar!!! It was also 45 years ago…

Duncan

 

[Chris Bar]

Do not put anything into the casing! Simply mount the casing firmly in a vise, held between pieces of soft wood to prevent damage to case, and firmly tap the primer center from the outside with center punch. Don't try to drive hard like a nail, just simply tap firmly and you will hear the primer fire (unless you are deaf, and if you are, do it in the dark and watch for the flash). Unless you hear or see, do not assume it has fired. You will know when it does. Wear safety glasses to protect any potential discharged matter from your eyes, and keep anyone else away when you do this to prevent any eye injuries. Make sure the bullet has been removed and the powder has been removed, or you will have an unpleasant experience. With a small flashlight, the primer can be seen from the open end. If you cannot see the primer from the open end, do not discharge the primer. Do at your own risk. Have to say that to hopefully protect me. I just fired the primed case shown and it worked fine. Only I did not use wood....did not care if case was damaged.



I do want to caution you to be very careful with live rounds. If you punch the primer in a live round by mistake, the case will probably ruture and folks could be seriously injured.

 

[keandkafu]

WD-40 will kill any primer in 30 seconds. They do not like thin oils from the inside. This is how we de-miled US military rounds prior to melting them down. You are correct, that is not a tracer round, just a 147 grain FMJ lead core bullet. You can heat it with a torch to get the lead to drop out, but be careful, it will burn anything it touchs!

 

[wolftat]

After 25 years in the military, I have to say that you should get rid of that thing. You obviously do not have the expertise to start messing around with that. No offense meant here, but you only have the fingers that are on your hands and there are no replacements. How about dumping that thing at the bottom of a deep lake and sending me you address so I can send you a prepared round that was purchased from Sylvanite. I would rather do that than hear about another injury that could have been avoided.

 

[lane223]

Duncan,

Don't mess with live ammo. I've seen oil soaked primers go bang and bright shiny new ones go "click" (no boom). You never know. I'm in Spain too, and if you want I can get you already fired cases that you can safely drill out.

 

[Al_T]

First I will say that I don't recommend doing anything that I say. I am just telling my personal experience from my many years of reloading. Being a competitive shooter I shoot and reload approximately 30,000 to 60,000 rounds of ammunition a year depending upon the year. I typically have on hand at any one time 10,000+ primers and 25+ pounds of various powders. I reload mostly shot shells in various gauges on hydraulic equipment but I also do my fair share of metallic cartridges both rifle and pistol on single stage equipment. I have even had a couple of primers go off in reloading equipment without major disaster.

I personally have set off primers in a primed case securely mounted in a vise dozens of times without incident. I will say that there cannot be any powder or projectile/bullet installed in the case. Safety glasses should always be worn to insure if a primer is punctured you do not blow debris in your face and never do it if you are standing over the case. And only hit the percussion side of the primer. Of course best is to always fire a primer in a properly chambered firearm. Under no circumstance never try to remove a live primer from a primed case.

Again I am not telling anyone to do anything that they have no experience with or do not feel comfortable with, or do anything period. Sometime being scared makes a situation a more dangerous situation.

Al

 

[Chris Bar]

Al is giving you the correct poop. Have reloaded too and have had a cook-off fire on the 600 yard range at Perry. Man was it hot that day! I would have offered to send a few decapped spent rounds but this guy is in Spain and I can imagine the issues that might arise, here and there.

 

[lane223]

Offer still stands. Picked up some fired 7.62x51/308win brass at the range yesterday. Let me know if you want a few.

 

[livertrans]

The Caliber is 7.62X39. I'm 99.9% sure that case has a Bereden type primer that has two tiny holes that you will see when looking through the casing with a flashlight. And the primer is crimped in not pressed in. You are not going to punch it out through the case with a punch even if you could deactivate the primer. Best bet is to find someone with a rifle and drop the hammer on the round to fire it. Or as some metioned place the case in a vice and hit the primer with a DULL punch.

 

[thevillageworkshop]

Why not just take them to a local gunsmith or gun shop. They can take care of it for you and if you tell them what your doing you might even sell them one.

 

[snyiper]

Err on the side of caution. Toss it! I dont reload yet as I dont quite feel comfortable doing it alone yet I am sure once I am schooled Ill be fine. It isnt worth the risk to "try" and do one of the advised ways. I have no doubt one of the ways will work I also have no doubt with out putting actual eyes on it you could be hurt. My opinion not worth the risk...now when I was 18 that was a different story!! Good thing we get smarter as we get older!!!!

 

[KenV]

Most european casings do not have boxer priming such as is common in the US. the Beredan (sp) primers use an anvil that is in the case pocket as part of the shell and the primer cannot be knocked out with a pin from the mouth. (I have a 9.3 by 72 drilling that uses those cases). Popping the primer with a punch or finding someone with a rifle is the easy way. Lore has it that the case full of liquid and a tight piston fittning in the mouth struck a good blow will hydraulically move the primer. Very tight piston and a hard sharp blow -- nothing wimpy.

I have a little jig that tears the primer out of the pocket.

 

[penhead]

Having worked in the munitions field eight years while in the military, I read these posts with interest...but this one made certain parts of my anatomy tighten up that a pound of vaseline wouldn't have made a pea fit 8>)

ALWAYS BE CAREFULL..no matter which advice to decide to choose to use..!



Just to add to the anguish of the 'bury them and run far, far away' camp, I actually had them rattling around in my trouser pocket as complete cartridges when I was under the impression that they were dummy rounds – maybe I wouldn't have been able to write the original post if they hadn't been the more robust military-spec rounds?

 

[Rmartin]

Okay, now, you guys are scaring the bejeezus outta me, and I'm fearless! My advice would be to soak the aforementioned primed case for 6 months minimum in WD40, then take it far away from civilization and bury it. Then, come back and post a request for unprimed cases, and I'm sure someone here will happily send you a few, maybe even for free, or just the shipping cost, just to keep you from blowing off your fingers, or shooting your eye out!

I was waiting for someone to warn about shooting your eye out. LMAO!

Mom, is that you?:biggrin::biggrin: