CA finishing help

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Doug Jones

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Crawfordsville, Indiana, USA.
I'm not the sharpest chissel in the shop, so I need help. I've heard of this "CA" type finish. What is it and how do I do it (step by step). Is the shine better than the Hut Crystal finish I use?
Any help is greatly appreciated,,,,
 
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What we need is a nice, detailed article on finishing with CA. Any takers? Fame and fortune can be yours. Well, fame at least.

Jeff in Litchfield, OH
 
Actually, Greg Wilson is working on an article on CA finish. He is very good at CA finish! That article may even end up in a magazine first. In the meantime I can provide a quick review, and then maybe get some information for the tips section.

There are a number of different ways to apply CA as a finish. Here's a good basic method. After sanding with, say, 150 grit, turn the lathe down as much as possible, and drip thin CA on the top of the spinning pen blank while holding the sandpaper against the underside of the blank. This will create a slurry with the CA and the sanding dust which will the fill the pores. When this sets, sand the rest of the way through the grits. This will sand through the seal coat, but the surface will still be sealed where it counts. After you have sanded, turn the lathe down again, and holding wax paper or plastic against the underside of the spinning pen blank, drip thin CA onto the top of the blank, and use the wax paper or plastic to distribute the CA evenly across the blank. Put on a second and third coat using thick CA, and then a fourth coat using thin again. When this sets you will probably find that the surface is uneven. Sand by hand with 320 sandpaper until smooth again, then lightly sand up through the Micro Mesh again, and you will end up with a wonderful shine.

This is but one way to do it, and I actually do it a bit different myself now, but I'll put more about that in the tips section soon. I hope this helps!

Scott.
 
It's just me again!

I thought I'd tell a bit more about how I have been doing a CA finish lately. First of all, this is not "original thought"! I picked this up from an article on pen finishing by Michael Dresdner, the finishing expert. I use a combination of CA Glue and Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO).

Insted of using plastic or waxed paper, I use a folded up paper towel both because it holds the BLO better for this purpose, and because the cellulose in the paper speeds up the cure of the CA. When I'm ready to put my finish on the pen I start with the lathe spinning at a slow speed. I put a good sized drop of BLO on the paper towel and spread it around on the pen blank, distributing it evenly. A nice side effect of this is that the BLO will help keep the CA from gluing your bushings to the blank. Then I put a fresh drop of BLO on the paper towel, and hold this on the underside of the spinning pen blank, then drip thin CA onto the pen blank from above, so that the CA and the BLO mix as I distribute it evenly across the pen blank. I repeat this with two coats using thick CA, then a final coat using thin CA again.

The BLO seems to cause the CA to cure almost instantly, but it changes the consistency of the CA so that it flows onto the pen blank more evenly. The last pen I did in this manner did not even require any sanding afterwards! It was a nice smooth, even surface. If I wanted the super glossy shine I like from CA finishes I'd still have to polish up through the Micro Mesh, but on this particular pen the slightly matte finish was nice.

As a side note, my Wife uses this same method, but she doesn't reduce the speed of the lathe to apply it. She doesn't like to mess with changing speeds. So she applies it at top speed on a Jet Mini, which ordinarily would end up with either a porcupine pen, or a CA facial treatment, but the worst she has experienced was gluing the top of her thumb at the joint so she couldn't bend it!

Try it! If you like it, remember us fondly! If you don't like it, forget I ever mentioned it! [:D]

Scott.
 
Scott, thanks for the continuing my education on using CA as a pen finish. Seems there's about as many ways of doing this as there are pen turners.

Does the BLO affect the color of the wood? For example, I have some Osage Orange that I made a pen from that came out a real nice light orange/yellow. Finished that with Shellewax liquid. Would the BLO darken it?

Thanks,

rick
 
Hi All!

The BLO will darken the wood. Woodworkers say it "Pops the Grain"! But to tell you the truth, unless you have some kind of sealer on first, the CA will darken the wood as much, so I don't see much, if any, difference.

Now I will say that your results may vary. Greg has tried this method and says he just cannot get it to work right for him. I think the key to all of this is to have an open mind, and try different things with your pens, but do what works for you.

Scott.
 
Well, Scott, I tried your method. Went to home Depot for some fresh BLO, had my important gift pen all ready to lather on the Scott Finish, cup of coffee next to the lathe... and disaster! Too much BLO? Too much CA? Whatever the issue, the finish was wavy and cloudy! I polished with MM from 3600 to 12000 but I still wasn't happy. I need more practice!!
 
Hi Jeff,

Wavy and cloudy. Hmmmm. Just a guess but maybe too much BLO. I use an oil can to hold the BLO, and am able to put just a drop or two on the paper towel with it. But that's just a guess. The BLO will mix with the CA and cause it to cure almost immediately. Too much BLO might overpower the CA and cause these problems. Too much CA would just be a straight CA finish, which might be uneven but should be clear.

I like to use the oil cans to apply oil finishes to both pens and bowls. They keep the oil pretty fresh, and you can apply a pretty controlled amount right where you need it. I have one for BLO, one for Mineral Oil, and I just bought a couple more for Walnut Oil and Witches Brew (combination of mineral spirits, BLO and poly). Maybe you ought to throw this in the tips section!

Scott.
 
Scott, that's my thought too. I tried to get just a drop on, but probably had too much. I'm not discouraged, though! Where do you get the oil cans? They Home Depot items?

Also, when you go to 'shine up' the finish, what grade of MM do you start with? Probably pretty high, as you just want to polish.
 
Hi Jeff,

These are just your basic oil cans, the kind with a trigger that pumps the oil out of the spout. Two I bought at a hardware store clearance sale, and two more I bought at Harbor Freight.

I would start about 1/3 of the way into the Micro Mesh. In other words skip the first two or three sheets. But I don't hink it would hurt to go all the way through the MM.

Take care!

Scott.
 
Good morning all,

I have this question posted and emailed in different places so I can get a number of similar (or different) answers. My question is: Can one use the CA/BLO finish over a cured oil finish, or will the CA react to the oil undercoat? Any help or information will be greatly appreciated.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner [:)]
 
Well Lee, we meet again. Scott didn't mention which papertowel he uses. I have used plain bounty for some time now, but Russ Fairfield has suggested I use Viva. I did last night and I do think it is better than bounty. I put BLO in an empty contact lens solution bottle, enlarge the hole in the tip just a little and it is easy to apply a few drops to the paper towel applicator. I apply a littile BLO to the wood. Seems the longer you leave it on the more it soaks in and darkens the wood. Some wood needs it and some doesn't. I buff the blank dry, apply one drop to the aready used towel, run it over the pen to have fresh oil on the pen, then apply the CA much as Scott described. I too have results that are as good unsanded as they are sanded. Its really nice.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
 
Hi Guys! I've been gone for a couple of days!

Lee - I don't think there would be any problem associated with applying the CA/BLO over an existing oil finish. I'd say go for it!

Hi Don - Next you'll be asking me which toilet paper I use!!! ;-) I really like a paper towel I got at Sams Club, which they called their "Cloth-Like" paper towel. But our local Sams stopped carrying it, so I think Viva is what I switched to.

I agree, it is important that you be able to control how much BLO you apply to the paper. I keep mine in one of those oil cans with the trigger. With a gentle squeeze of the trigger I can get one drop, two drops, whatever. But whatever works, as long as you can control the amount.

I'm glad somebody else is having some good results with this!

Scott.
 
Hi guys. I need to tap into the collective wisdom here. (I feel like changing my alias to Grasshopper!) I did a CA/blo finish on a purpleheart pen last night that turned out beautifully - grain really popped, deep shiny finish. This morning the pen is - basically - boring. Rubbed blo on with lathe stopped (only a couple drops), made sure there was no excess, turned on lathe, added a new drop of blo, then CA, polished blank, etc. Everything was beautiful. Finished with Crystal Coat. This a.m. - blah. Noticed on a couple of pens that finishes disappeared within a couple days. This has happened on cypress and cedar (I didn't use the CA/blo on these 2 because I was having the blotchies with cypress. just sand, polish to MM, then crystal coat.) Am I using too much blo, not enough coats? Do some woods just eat finish?
Thanks for your help!
 
Hi Denise!

Strangely enough, your problem may be the Crystal Coat!

Crystal Coat used to be my very favorite finish. I used it all the time. I still keep it around and use it occasionally. Nice stuff! But it isn't a CA finish.

When you cet your CA finish done, and polished up through the Micro Mesh, try just a light coat of Rennaissance Wax. With Crystal Coat, you actually put a new layer of shellac finish over your CA, and the small amount of BLO may be clouding up the shellac a little bit. Just guessing there, though.

Some woods are trouble to finish! Usually that's because of oils in the wood. That usually isn't a big problem for CA, but just in case it isn't a bad idea to wipe down the pen barrel with something like acetone first.

See if this helps!

Scott.
 
And PS - try wiping that purpleheart pen down with alcohol (not the "good stuff" though!). Shellac is alcohol soluable, and that may clean a lot of it off the pen. Let me know how it does!

Scott.
 
Originally posted by paleydp
<br />Hi guys. I need to tap into the collective wisdom here. (I feel like changing my alias to Grasshopper!) I did a CA/blo finish on a purpleheart pen last night that turned out beautifully - grain really popped, deep shiny finish. This morning the pen is - basically - boring. Rubbed blo on with lathe stopped (only a couple drops), made sure there was no excess, turned on lathe, added a new drop of blo, then CA, polished blank, etc. Everything was beautiful. Finished with Crystal Coat. This a.m. - blah. Noticed on a couple of pens that finishes disappeared within a couple days. This has happened on cypress and cedar (I didn't use the CA/blo on these 2 because I was having the blotchies with cypress. just sand, polish to MM, then crystal coat.) Am I using too much blo, not enough coats? Do some woods just eat finish?
Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...
Denise,
What type of CA are you using? My experience ranges through thin, medium and thick when used with BLO. Thin never seemed to work well. I couldn't get an even coat. Thick will work for me but you get what I like to think of as the "dreaded CA sling".[:)] I moved to medium after my wife picked up a package of 4 X 2g superglue tubes at one of those Mart (Wal or K) stores. They turned out to be medium viscosity and applied well with no sling. Polishing through M-M 12,000 also works wonders. After applying CA and BLO, I wipe up any excess BLO and then polish back up to M-M 12K. I apply a minimum of 2 and a max of 6 coats (so far). When done, I apply lacquer based padding finish used like a friction polish. No problems with that so far. I've been using it for some time on wood that ranges from dry to wet (meaning both oily and green) and the only problems come from CA viscosity. I can't address Crystal Coat as I have never used it. Mylands even seems to work well with this method and I haven't had any problems with it wearing off so far.
 
I just joined, so I have an excuse for being late [:D]

I have tried a bazillion methods for using CA as a finish, and will always keep experimenting more and more!... lots of fun trying new stuff ....

I wrote a quick article about the method I presently use....

http://www.woodhelp.com/CAInfoSheet.htm
 
Last night I was finishing up a pen with a CA finish. I sanded up through 12000 MM, I had some Meguires Mirror Glaze because I use it with the Enduro Poly finish and thought that I would give it a try with CA. It did an awsome job and really made a big difference right before my eyes. I used a folded up piece of Heavy blue shop paper towel, put a little MMG on it and with the lathe at high speed applied it to the blank back and forth. It takes about a minute but then it really starts to shine, I then use a clean piece of the same towel to continue buffing.

By the way, someone here I believe, mentioned the Enduro Poly finish. Thank you, I purchased the starter kit and do really like it. My latest experiment was useing a small 2" micro fine foam paint roller. I placed the finished blank on a dowell and rolled it around the foam roller which I held still with my finger. I let it dry for about five minutes and gave it another coat. Let it set over night and then put it back on the lathe and polished with Micro Mesh using 3200 through 12000. I then used the Meguires Mirror Glaze like with the CA and buff it out. It has a softer feel than CA and shines up just as nicely as CA but has no smell and I don't end up glued to anything.

Again, whomever you are, thank you.

Wayne Swindlehurst
 
Wayne,

Thanks for the breakdown. I think I was the one who asked about the Enduro...maybe over on Yahoo. But tell me, where did you get it? Did I understand correctly that you bought the Enduro and the Meguires together in a starter kit?

DWFII
 
Maybe I should start a new topic for questions regarding CA finishes, but what the heck, I'll ask and see what happens. There has been a lot of discussion regarding CA finishes on Yahoo penturners group and there definately a split among that group about CA finishes and from catching up on reading here there is probily is one here as well, but before I commit one way or the other regarding CA finishes and being opened minded about new things to try, I have a couple of question to ask about CA finishes:
1. When did CA start being used as finish on small wood turning (pens, bottle stoppers, duck calls, etc.?
2. What is the expected life of a CA finish?
3. do the companies that make CA support usage as a Wood finish?
4. What are the known disadvantages of using CA? besides glueing your fingers together or to the turning itself.

I am very curious on trying out CA and in fact have started an experiment regarding CA, Is there a volunteer out thier that would look at my finished CA pen, first to make sure I did it right and verify that it was a CA pen? I will also send a pen to someone else a pen using a more standard finish that would consist of Tung oil and 2# shellac (mother nature product). I will compare the finishes over a period of year to see how they will hold up and then send the pens to a volunteer or a group of penturners for thier analysis. The test environment I will use; one pen will be given to my son to use in his office, he constantly uses a pen daily to sign company documents and the other to my wife who uses a pen daily in her job, after 6 months change them around. I know this sounds elaborate, but I am really curious about using an adhensive as a finish and am willing to spend some time with it from a nuetral point of view (since I am fairly new at penturning). let me know what you think and any helpful suggestions and answers to my questions would be most appreciated.
 
Patrick,
First your year long comparison is Just the type of thing I woudl like to see more of in these groups. Everyone has there opinions, and many of them come cheap and are worth every bit of it.
I woudl say (combination of experience and opinion) is that the poularity of CA as a finish i due to it's Durability/Convenience Ratio.
It is fast but durable. I woudl certainly suspect that more durable. finishes are possible, Such as Shellac or Varnish. you could concivable incase the pen in resin. but each of these have time consumption or application issues. I am a firm believer that teh finer the pen the finer the finish should be. adn to develop a level of quality for various finishes is just what needs to be done. the durabilty etc. including best finishes for various woods.
the draw backs of CA, other than gluing various items to imbarassing and creative locations of all types.
1. Fumes. the use of CA can be hazardous to you health.
2. a tendancy for it to not go on right. leaving cloudy spots adn an uneven finish.
3. the recent debate over just how to apply one. there was no such debate when I started using it. I went straight to the lathe and did it. now I have ran across several confused beginners that can't seem to get it down. the whole introduction of BLO seems to have complicated it.
4. storage issues for the CA. limited shelf life.

the expected life of a CA finish I don't know. the fact that a pen is handled adn used leads me to think that no finish will last forever. I do knw that tha CAQ finishes on my pens have lasted a year or more. adn then others have been pretty shaby after just a few months, it depends on the use. this far out does any wax or polish i have used.

I am ot awaire of any company that produces CA that even knows it is used as a finish. much less recomends it. I have seen evidence that many other forms of wood turning are not awaire of it's use as a finish.
 
Daniel;

You brought up a good point regarding time to apply finishing, I will include this in my little research project. The shellac finishes have the same problem as you pointed out regarding shelf life, years ago a 3lb cut shelf life was one year from mixing, now they (companies) have extended that to 3 years, but I believe a sacrifice was made somewhere in the thier formula mixing by adding a chemical along the way, but can't put my finger on it. So I keep on using the raw flakes and mix myself to get the shellac finish I want. I don't always use shellac, but I do love the look of it as it brings out the grain pattern of the wood in a mirror like image. I also have not used it on any pens yet, because of it known character defect of disintegrating around any aclohol, easy to repair, but I don't want my clients to keep bringing back my pens to repair when they were out at the bar the night before and the pen got some aclohol on it, if you know what I mean. Are you at the "Rendezvous"? If so how is it going?
 
I always like these discussions.... I sell CA, and have done, and will continue to do as much research as I can... The discussion of shelf like always comes up, and I have watched this carefully over the past 9 years... If the CA is kept where the air can't get to it, i.e. a never-opened bottle I believe 3 years is easily attained as a shelf life, with no noticable degredation of the CA... but did the finish properties change with the "older" CA?... no idea yet, as I just started using CA as a finish about a year ago...

I have not found a product yet that is as easy to apply, soaks in as well, or is as cost effective as CA... it only takes a few drops to finish a pen...

I use 3 different wax applications after I have applied and sanded CA... the final wax being pure carnuba... This finish wears off obviously, but is also very easy to apply and re-apply... I'm still very new to this as I said, so I will be trying all kinds of finishes in the future, but I will continue to use CA as the base (Uhh... filler?)...

Good stuff folks... I am reading it all!!
 
Patrick,
the easiest way to test different finishes is to finish 1/2 of the pen one way, and the other 1/2 another way. It's easy to test for sanding differences, or even durability of a finish. Granted, 1/2 of the pen will probably be handled more than the other 1/2, but it can give a closer test than two separate people in separate environments.

Personally, I have pens finished with CA that look nearly as good as they did when they came off the lathe, but through regular daily use, show some wear. Some pens I've seen with only a friction finish (basically shellac) look as though there is no finish or very little.

One of these days, I've gotta get my CA finishing article finished for the AAW! sigh.......
 
Greg,
Good points, but both of these individuals write roughly the same amount of time (it's not a perfect situation) but should be a good base to start from, plus it also will be opportunity to see how the human oils (contains some acidic properties -not much) will effect the finishes over a period of time. The mention of the current shellac within current friction finishes, I have a problem with, the friction finish by Hut is very suspect, a high tendency of the compounds to seperate (produces a not even finish as well as no finish with in days due to wood absorbsion). The product from Australia (Shellawax - I believe) does not have the seperation that Hut (Crystal Coat) experiences, but contains a high concretrate of wax (last bottle I looked at), the wax contains acids that can counter act the shellac itself and causes it to thin and spead unevenly (note warning on bottle)if not applied for 2 to 3 minutes to allow heat build up to dispense wax and shellac evenly. The Crystal Coat contains carnuba wax that creates an effect with the shellac itself that dulls without concentrated heat this sometimes doesnt work (towards the end of 1 year shelf life as noted on bottle), both products rely on heat to be the catalyst for even spread of finish. In using pure shellac, you do not experience this uneven finish by utilizing a pad or a brush. Shellac needs time to cure (the downside), during the curing time, shellac melts together and pentrates the wood to start forming a sealed bond, after two to three coats (long times to re-apply - disadvantage), the shellac form a mirror look that has depth with the ability of popping the grain. I have not used shellac on any of my pens nor have I used CA on any of my pens. I have tried both the Shellawax and Crystal Coat friction finishes and I am not satisfied with these. I have used laquer finishes from Deft and Minwax, I have used different polyies by dippingwith good results, but not perfect. There has got to be something that will produce a mirror finish that is not an adhesive (hard to learn and apply) nor a mixtures of Wax and other components (bad seperation issues). There is a lot of good information out there on the benefits and dis advantages of both types of finish. I'm just wanting to step up and experiment until a highly gross and durable finish can be found and the results can be made public for anyone to make a well informed decision, without personal influences that may or maynot effect the well being (health and financial) of the person appling either type of finish. I hope this makes some sense, if not I apologize.
 
You could also check other variables such as applying time. Set times and such by putting the finish on a dowl. just turn a plain old piece of pine.
It could then be sliced up for penetration analysis if that was desired.(thinking of the stabalizing claims of CA there)
the half and half finish idea really takes a lot of the variables out of the durability question. both finishes where subjected to the same treatment. Plus a photo of a piece of wood showing the results of the various finishes would go along way in helping others choose a "Look" that they prefer. the problem would be in trying to determin for anyone other than yourself what is the "Right Finish" Penturning is an Art. It is about achieving the results that the Artist desires. Wrong can only happen if they desire a High Gloss finish and consistantly end up with a Matte.
Durability is anouther matter. and can be measured. But even on that note. I sold a key ring that the customer wanted to get worn quickly.
So go figure.
I think the idea of determining the characteristics of various finishes is a great one.
Sorry, I'm not at the Rendezvous. But I am working hard with a couple of others on getting the IAP rolling so this is not slack time for me.
I have to wait on reports with the rest of you. from what I have heard it is going very well though.
 
Daniel;

Good point, wood reacts differently with various finishes applied, a using a simply dowel would show the different finishes and provide a test bed as well as a benchmark in most cases, but it would tend to eliminate the daily handing of the human, which oil from skin does effect the finish after a period of time. So I might add the dowel pin theory to this as well for pentration and appeal analysis for common softwood and then set a dowel set with a common hardwood such as oak (very pourous). This may turn to be a bigger research project than I first imagine, but I feel it needs to be done right to be of any benefit to anyone (there still will be holes in the research but its a start). I am also thinking oily woods as well, they really react differently to normal finishes. I hope everyone can contruibute your thoughts and ideas, hopefully it will answer a lot questions out there as well as help the newer turners who come on board.
 
Hey if your going to be setting around for a year waiting for the wear results, I figured we need to give you something to do :)
 
oh, I have enough to do for more than a year, I work with wood all day for 5 1/2 days out of the week, and so when the evening comes around, I like working with the AA and trustone material. Different from wood so it breaks up the routine. I do pens from woods of my projects to customers as thank you's, but these pens are finished in the same finish as the project I was working on for them. They are most appreciative and even gave me some referrral pen business I wasnt expecting. I still stick to a pricing structure I use in the Wood Shop, nobody seems to mind. No, I can wait for a year if need be to determine results, gives me a break and excerizes the mind. Someone needs to do it and it might as well be me, since I don't have a lively hood dependent on it (kinda makes me a little dangerous - huh [:D].
 
Tom,
I'm not Scott. But the answer to yur question is yes. the sealing and the finishing are two seperate steps. you creat the slurry with sandpaper and Ca then when it dries you sand it all down. most of the Ca is actually sanded off leaving every little grain and flaw filled in. you will still see the grain but it will be smooth adn filled in. at this point some people including me actually polish the wood all the way out to 12000 micro mesh. Then come back and apply the CA/BLO, or just CA whichever you prefer. then this will be sanded and polished as scott described. in this case I described three seperate steps. you can include or exclude any one of them and decide on the results yourself.
I always see the filling step as making as smooth a foundation for my finish as I can get. then I do the finish step I can concentrate solely on the CA, wether I am sanding through and if the shine is even with every grit etc. I know the wood under the finish is as good as it is going to get. I have and to many great finishes marred by something left in the wood itself.
 
Daniel,

Sorry for the confusion, but thanks for the reply!

I'm really new to pen turning, and from what I've read here, it seems that most people prefer some sort of CA/BLO combination for the finish instead of friction polishes. Is that because the CA based finish holds up better than friction polish?

Right now I'm just turning pens and giving them as gifts, but I still want to be sure that they're not going to quickly lose their finish.

Thanks for your help!

Tom
 
Tom
I've never used the BLO myslef, But I have read lots of comments on it. From what I understand the BLO has to do with getting the ca to go on smoother. I don't recall ever seeing anything about it being more durable.
along the line of how durable ca is. I had a fairly large pool of it on a piece of plexiglass the other day. just out of curiosity I scraped it off with a razor blade to see what it was like. expecting it to be hard and brittle I wa suprised that although the outer surfce was hard. it remained very flexable. more like a rubber. I twisted and bent it and not one mare, cloudy area or anything appeared in it. I was impressed at ow reistant it was to being damaged.
 
Hi Tom,

I used to use a lot of friction polish, and I still whip out the ole' HUT Crystal Coat occasionally! But the CA finish is so much better! It shines up better, and is more durable. Using BLO with the CA just seems to be an easier way to apply the CA - but it's still all about the CA.

Scott.
 
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