CA/BLO - what else?

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Munsterlander

Munsterlander

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
267
Location
Gaithersburg, MD, USA.
I've been alternating between Russ F's video (CA then BLO) and Don Ward's article (3 drops of BLO then CA) trying to get a consistent result with CA/BLO. It's still totally hit or miss - great when it hits, awful when it misses.

Here's the problems I'm seeing and a couple of questions:

1) The biggest problem I'm having is not clouds, but whether I use MM between coats or just wait to 'til the end, I get a lot of white "flakiness"/garbage on the CA surface (it's not loose), and much of the time I can't seem to clean it up short of going pretty much all the way back to the wood. Does not happen all the time - whatever I'm doing pretty consistently works great on curly pyinma, but, on desert ironwood, for example, I get this pretty consistently. Sometimes I can "clean it up" by using EEE, and sometimes I give up at that point and go ahead and finish with friction polish (which actually looks not bad over an undercoat of CA). Incidentally, I see this problem whether I use either the video or the article.

2) I do get clouds at times, and they seem to happen most often when I have a barrel with a fairly thick part (larger diameter) relative to the ends of the barrel. I suspect I'm getting sand-through most of the time when this happens - is there a trick to avoiding this other than the obvious? Given a higher point in the barrel I'm sure if I'm not careful that's the spot that will get sanded the most when I MM. But it occurred to me that in addition to that maybe I'm doing something wrong on those high points when I apply the CA glue - maybe I'm not getting as much on at those points as I need to?

3) I've read a ton of posts and it sounds like most of you wind up with a very smooth surface between each coat - in some cases not even needing to sand (I think Russ mentions going straight to buffing somtimes? I may be remembering that incorrectly.). I'm not getting this, and it doesn't seem to matter whether I keep the paper towel on the barrel for a longer period of time (Don says a frequent source of failure is not staying with it long enough) or a shorter one. Sometimes I even get bits of the paper towel getting embedded in the glue if I stay very long. So I'm wondering about specifics of what you guys are doing with the paper towel. Say it's Don's technique, 3 drops of BLO first and then CA - applied directly to the barrel in one pass with the paper towel underneath - once the glue is on, do you use the same part of the towel the whole time you go back and forth? At some point it gets a bit crusty as the CA starts to cure. Same thing if it's Russ' technique with BLO on the towel after the CA is applied. Stay in the same spot? Or do you move to a clean area to go back and forth?

Incidentally, I've tried this with plain white paper towels and with blue shop towels, no appreciable difference.

You might conclude from my posts that my "operation" is a bit of trainwreck, so I do want to say it's not all bad - I might have to spend 3 hours on the finish for one pen, but for most of them I eventually get something with which I'm satisfied. I was in a class last week with a bunch of engineering professional types and at the breaks wound up selling 14 pens and grossing around $650. 'Course I've still got about $3K to go before I cover my startup investment and stock of wood and kits - but it was still pretty exciting!

Thanks for any guidance.

-Mike
 
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I do it my way...

I hesitate to post, because everyone who is 'successful' with the CA/BLO finish has a different method. What works for me, is when I use BLO, which is seldom, I only use it on raw wood and then only enough to just wet the wood (to bring out grain). FOR ME, the BLO seems to percolate up through the successive coats of CA and continue to do its thing (see Note** below).

Usually, I just hit the raw wood with thin CA, and then finish with several coats of medium CA. If, between coats, the surface starts to get rough, I sand it smooth with 400 grit, then ALWAYS finish sanding with the grain, and start back with the thin coats (one or two drops per barrell) of CA. I don't have a prescribed number of coats of CA, I get a 'feel' (sorry - I know that isn't helpful) for when there is enough. I finish sand up to 600 grit, and then finish on the buffer.

On thin coats - I ALWAYS battle the temptation to put more CA on, even after I have discovered that 'less is more' I still want to put too much CA on the blank.

**One note about why I don't use BLO - FOR ME, it radically softens the CA to the point where it clogs the sand paper and almost becomes unworkable. After using the BLO as mentioned above, it takes a number of coats of CA just to get to the point where I can work with the finish.

YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.:smile:
 
I've found that I had most of my problems (which included some of your problems) when trying to apply too much CA in one coat.
Here is my process:
* I use paper towels that have no dye, and I try to get ones with little to no embossing, but I'm not sure how much the embossing matters
* I fold it up until I have an applicator that is about 1" wide and 5-6" long
* Lathe speed ~500rpm
* I start by putting enough BLO on the applicator to cover 1" by 1" and wipe it on the blank.
* Then I wipe off the excess with a clean part of the applicator.
* I then put 1 or 2 drops (a very small amount) of CA on top of the BLO soaked part of the applicator
* Using light pressure and quick motions, I start applying it back and forth on the blank.
* I keep moving and watching the "reflection" from the ceiling light. I'm waiting for the CA to haze over.
* Shortly after the hazing has started, it should start to polish out (cure)...keep going until it has been completely polished out. I use the reflection again to determine this.
* From the time the CA is applied to when it is cured is about 45 seconds to a minute.
* I then apply 1-2 drops of BLO in the exact same spot as last time, and wipe it on and wipe off the excess.
* Then do the same process for CA as before.
* My current method has me putting 4 back-to-back coats of BLO/CA, then MM (all grits), then one more coat of BLO/CA, then friction polish. I think that the highest grit of MM is still coarser than what CA will cure to on its own. Then I use friction polish.
* If the blank is pretty porous wood, then I might use thin CA on the first coat (maybe the second too). But after that, it is all thick.

I was having all kinds of problems when I was using too much CA. I couldn't get a smooth coat, it wouldn't cure consistently, it would start picking up paper towel. After I reduced the amount, most of my problems went away. I also use pretty light pressure when applying the CA. I may start to apply pressure after the hazing process, because some parts of the blank have cured and other parts are still hazy. Sometimes the pressure helps.

Hope my method helps you to figure out yours...
 
OK, here's a couple of dumb questions about the CA/BLO finish.
1) Does it have to be BLO or would something like Tung oil work too?
2) What does EEE stand for?
 
Heya Bruce
I'm pretty close to Eric's method. I'm new to BLO/CA finish, just started it last month, but have had suprisingly good luck, probably more by accident than skill :) . I also worked using Russ and Don's tutorials, and didnt notice too much of a different in results between them, both came out really nice, so I took what I thought was the best of both. I put a little less BLO than Russ, a little more than Don, and follow Don's instructions about following the CA with the paper towel. I do keep it on there quite a while, and as Eric said, the overhead light is a big help, as well as lathe speed. I've ended up relegating my little shopfox vs for finishes as I can slow it down, and do the actual turning on the rikon <just more comfortable for me>. I MM after the last coat, tried inbetween coats, but didnt see much difference.

EEE is tripoli. It's a buffing/polishing compound, and I believe removes fine scratches.
 
What works for me

Munsterlander
When I first started turning pens last March I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I found some pretty good videos on YouTube that helped me a lot. This link is to the one that helped me the most and was the first time that I had even heard of the BLO & CA finish. There is a whole set of videos this guy has done and they are all very helpful for the beginner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBTbCOL4npg
That got me started and I worked with trying different methods till I got one that works pretty good for me.
1. First I use the Mylands Sanding Sealer, or Formby's Tung oil or sometimes the BLO first to bring the grain out.
2. I put on a coat or two of the Hut Crystal Coat.
3. Then I start with the BLO & CA finish. I use the Brawny half sheet towels. I fold one in half lengthwise and cut it into inch and half to two inch strips. Take one of those and fold it in half long ways and in half the other way. (I use these strips for applying all finishes.) I put a few drops of BLO on the paper towel spread up and down it then apply a coat of it on the pen blank.
4. Then, (using the slowest speed on the middle belt step of my Jet 1014 VS lathe) I add three drops of the thick CA glue to the same paper towel and at first lightly spread it across the wood then increase the pressure a little, crank up the rpm and move the paper towel quickly back and forth. For me I found that holding each end of the paper towel strip and moving the whole strip across the wood (like buffing the shine on a pair of shoes) and back and forth across the wood works best. I watch the light reflection off of it till it shines pretty good. I found this will give me a finish without a bunch of groves in it. I usually repeat this giving it three to five coats. I use the same piece of paper towel two or three times, sometimes both sides of it.
5. Then I will give it a coat of the Hut Crystal Coat then top that with a coat of the Myland's Friction Polish. Depending on how it looks and if the piece of wood has that Wow factor I will repeat this a couple of times.
6. Sometimes, but not very often, I need to take the buffing wheel to it with some EEE. If I have to do that then its back in the lathe to add a coat of Myland's Friction Polish back on it.
I usually get very good results doing it this way. I know it may be over kill combining the different finishes but I end up with something that has a deep shine to it and looks great.
Any who, that's the method that I've developed over the last five months. The key seems to be moving the paper towel quickly back and forth across the wood when applying the CA. If you move it too slow it will leave groves in the finish.
 
I've been on the road for 3 weeks for work and finally got a chance to try some the advice folks provided. I definitely was using too much CA before and reducing it pretty much eliminated the flakiness issue. Thanks! Still not predictably perfect, but a couple more steps forward...

Another followup question. If I wind up with a sand-through spot, I'm assuming it's ok to just add more coats of CA again with sanding back to the wood. Is that correct? Also, I have some "problem" pieces that in the same areas always seem to not want to hold any finish - anybody else have this experience and any suggestions?

Thanks again.
 
Munsterlander said:
I've been on the road for 3 weeks for work and finally got a chance to try some the advice folks provided. I definitely was using too much CA before and reducing it pretty much eliminated the flakiness issue. Thanks! Still not predictably perfect, but a couple more steps forward...

Another followup question. If I wind up with a sand-through spot, I'm assuming it's ok to just add more coats of CA again with sanding back to the wood. Is that correct? Also, I have some "problem" pieces that in the same areas always seem to not want to hold any finish - anybody else have this experience and any suggestions?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Concerning "Sand-through spots" - I posted this earlier and will re-post it here as it "might" apply to one of the problems.

"One note on "spots". If you are having spots or areas the size of a small fingernail or even half that size - then you are probably having sand through. It could be too aggressive sanding at the low end of MM but the fact that you are having a spot on one side appear - this is indicative of another problem - OOR (out of round).

A mandrel nut too tight (sometimes forces a miniscule 'kant' into the blank and bushing), the tail stock too tight on the mandrel, a bent mandrel, a bushing OOR or drilled off center. Any of these that cause as little as .005 - .008 00R will cause one side of the blank to be highlighted. Tracking down the specific cause is a trial and error situation. (Mandrel-less eliminates the 'mandrel' problems)

IF the sand through is all the way around, then you are not having an OOR problem, just heavy sanding problem."

The other question:
"If I wind up with a sand-through spot, I'm assuming it's ok to just add more coats of CA again with sanding back to the wood. Is that correct?"

Sometimes it works and many times it does not. New CA over a sand through spot will show often show up as a lighter spot. In a couple of cases where I did this, I didn't have much to lose so I applied a spot of BLO to darken it, wiped it off and then applied CA. Matched fine in those two cases and you will know it in a couple of minutes.

IF it does not work and it becomes obvious that you have a 'spot', then either sand the whole blank back down or use acetone to remove it all. Let it set for about 10 minutes or run the blank on the lathe while holding a piece of paper towel against it to heat and get the acetone out.
 
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