Burl wood?

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ed4copies

ed4copies

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I got an email today from a person who complained that his burl was cracked.

To ME, burl wood has "character" when it has a very irregular grain pattern, possibly "eyes" and, inherently there are cracks.

What do you all think? Do you expect burls to have flaws? Does it matter what species the burl wood is?

Just looking for input--the email really made me wonder if I am completely out of touch with "wood guys" today.

Thanks for any input!!!
ed
 
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I have bought over the years a fair amount of burl wood, from pen blanks to blocks for making bowls and/or vases.
I have found that the burl with More character will have what some people call cracks or defects. A crack in a pen blank can be filled with powdered stone for a different look, My take on the burls, blocks down to pen blank size!!!
 
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Some who sell burl pen blanks will include in the description "free of checks, cracks, etc." I would expect to see just that, while at the same time realizing that a crack might reveal itself as the blank is turned. No problem there. If there is no specific description, I would expect to sometimes find small defects (cracks, splits) as part of the nature of burls. Often the most exciting burls will be accompanied with some small defects. I will take my cracks along with my excitement!!
 
IMHO. if there are no cracks or other defects, it's probably not a burl. Of course, on Ebay there have been many selling pieces of wood that they call "burl wood" but the burl may have been 10 feet away. I questioned one guy about it and he said I shouldn't be so picky!:rolleyes:
 
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Ed, I see minor bark inclusions, and tiny cracks as a part of the wood absent any other descriptor. But then I am not a product liability attorney.

Many of these turn away, and sometimes there are separations hiding in the wood. While not a burl, Olive wood has surprised me quite often. The point where a crack moves from minor to significant is a murky thing to define. Easy fills that are incidental to the finishing with CA is one way to describe the nature of "minor".
 
As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like. The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen? Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??
 
ed4copies said:
As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like. The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen? Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??
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IMHO, if i buy a blank from you or anyone selling them, i cant expect them to stay perfect or free from defect especially if the geographic location of the blank before purchase was different from mine. Not to mention what it was exposed to during the shipment of it. So with that said, and the obvious movement of wood, I personally feel like whoever it was that bought that blank from you and complained is either a real PITA and/or very inexperienced with their knowledge of wood. I mean after all, it is mother nature, go ahead and let me know when you can control that......just sayin':rolleyes:
 
seamus7227 said:
ed4copies said:
As a "gesture of goodwill" I am replacing the blank, but my real problem was looking through the bin and trying to guess what the inside of a 7/8" "stick" is going to look like. The "safest" bet had sapwood----will it separate during making the pen? Or, worse, will it separate a month down the road if the heat and humidity affect it??
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IMHO, if i buy a blank from you or anyone selling them, i cant expect them to stay perfect or free from defect especially if the geographic location of the blank before purchase was different from mine. Not to mention what it was exposed to during the shipment of it. So with that said, and the obvious movement of wood, I personally feel like whoever it was that bought that blank from you and complained is either a real PITA and/or very inexperienced with their knowledge of wood. I mean after all, it is mother nature, go ahead and let me know when you can control that......just sayin':rolleyes:
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Thanks Seamus---excellent observations, I think!!! This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
I LOVE pretty burl wood! And Ed, the burls that I have bought from you have made some spectacular pens.

To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood. The is "no magic bullet" for making burl stay together. In fact, it seems to me, the more spectacular the wood, the more difficult it is to manage.

When I get a "new" burl, the first thing I do is wrap it, as neatly as possible, in surgical gauze, place it on waxed paper, and coat it with thin CA, until the bandage will no longer accept CA.

When I drill or turn burl, I stop frequently to add additional CA. Occasionally, I still blow them up. IMHO, the problem is mine, not the wood's.
 
PenMan1 said:
I LOVE pretty burl wood! And Ed, the burls that I have bought from you have made some spectacular pens.

To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood. The is "no magic bullet" for making burl stay together. In fact, it seems to me, the more spectacular the wood, the more difficult it is to manage.

When I get a "new" burl, the first thing I do is wrap it, as neatly as possible, in surgical gauze, place it on waxed paper, and coat it with thin CA, until the bandage will no longer accept CA.

When I drill or turn burl, I stop frequently to add additional CA. Occasionally, I still blow them up. IMHO, the problem is mine, not the wood's.
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Thanks for the credit, Andy!!!

But, Dawn actually handles all the wood!!! I am asked to cut up a block, from time to time, but she purchases and sells all the wood blanks----I work in the "imported 'plastics' department"!!

If someone complains, I am asked to handle that, also. Since I actually have turned a number of wood pens, I can "speak the language" (to some people--at times like this one, I am not so sure:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)

Just want to give credit, where credit is due---Dawn finds the pretty wood!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
I can't even POST what I was thinking for laughing so hard!

In all seriousness, DAWN's Austrailian burl selections, have made many of my customers VERY HAPPY. If they hadn't been a little tedious to prepare, and I didn't have to be painstakingly careful not to blow them up, I might have wondered if Dawn was giving you all the good wood.
 
My wife nd i often chuckle about a gallery in HS, Ark that refused to display 2 of my pieces even though they had sold many and made money on them because they were cracked and therefore defective. I picked them up and sold them for a premium price later. both were burls. Some people????
 
Ed,

Any experienced woodworker will know that cracks, voids, & other imperfections are present in all burls. Period. Woodturners will either call the imperfections "character" or fill them with other materials and call that "character."

With that said, there will always be people who look for "perfect" burls. As bad as I hate to say it, you may need to post a comment on the ads stating that "burls are full of character which includes cracks, voids, etc. etc. etc."

Or you could x-ray every blank...:biggrin: By the way, yours are some of the nicest burls I've ever purchased.:smile:
 
seamus7227 said:
IMHO, if i buy a blank from you or anyone selling them, i cant expect them to stay perfect or free from defect especially if the geographic location of the blank before purchase was different from mine. Not to mention what it was exposed to during the shipment of it. So with that said, and the obvious movement of wood, I personally feel like whoever it was that bought that blank from you and complained is either a real PITA and/or very inexperienced with their knowledge of wood. I mean after all, it is mother nature, go ahead and let me know when you can control that......just sayin':rolleyes:
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This is exactly why I try to buy my blanks in advance and them let them sit before turning. Going from someplace like Arizona with 10% humdity to here in Florida with 90% and turning the day you receive the blanks is asking for issues. I have found blanks that looked great coming out of the box to be checked from one end to the other when I went to actually use it.
 
As many have already said, you expect to see imperfections in burl and they can generally be fixed by most turners. Actually the imperfections are what gives the burl its character. My experience with purchasing from you has always been positive. In this case you are providing the customer service most of us have experienced. Can you subtlely direct the buyer to this thread?
 
The term "perfect burl" is an oximoron, burl wood is by definition imperfect! I don't think most folks realize how much gets rejected when your cutting blanks. Its enough to heat my families home for the winter! When you find these perfect burls let me know, it sure would be nice to "just hack up some peices and throw them in a box" instead of spending hours figuring out the best way to get the most out of the beautiful woods we all love!

Anybody wanna point out the plain, undergrade and too far gone areas in this 8 foot section? How about the pen blank sized cracks?
 

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Andrew_K99 said:
PenMan1 said:
...To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood....
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Not to question your expectations but burl is not rotten or decaying wood It's a deformation in the tree that causes the grain to go wild. Reference here.

As for the question at hand, it's wood, it's burl, expect surprises which include cracks or voids.

AK
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By technical definition, you are right.


But, the burls that I really, really like and choose to work are usually root burls. My experience is that my prettiest blanks come from those underground or root burls, right at the "edge" of where Mother Nature has already claimed her blanks through rot and decay, and just before the area that the insects have claimed as their habitat.

I guess, technically, any knot, buldge or other physical deformity is a burl. Most of the ones I like, have to be "dug up" rather than sawn down. That is why I prefaced my remark with "to me".

Sorry for any confusion.
 
Spot on that Andy! Most of the reclaimed wood I use is stumps no one else was willing to drag off! Even very tight, straight grained trees like Black spruce will have some bizarre grain under ground!

If your not cutting up the root ball your waisting the best figure wood in the tree!
 
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I have only ever been upset with wood with Crack that was listed as crack & check free BUT this bowl blank "Almond" had a split 2" deep into the blank & was the full 6" off the blank. This crack was also about a 1/4" wide at outside edge the whole length. I would not have purchased the wood with the known issue but with check & crack free what i got was way different. I did manage to use them for pen blanks.

Bill
 
PenMan1 said:
Andrew_K99 said:
PenMan1 said:
...To me, "burl" means rotting on nearly decayed wood....
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Not to question your expectations but burl is not rotten or decaying wood It's a deformation in the tree that causes the grain to go wild. Reference here.

As for the question at hand, it's wood, it's burl, expect surprises which include cracks or voids.

AK
Click to expand...

By technical definition, you are right.


But, the burls that I really, really like and choose to work are usually root burls. My experience is that my prettiest blanks come from those underground or root burls, right at the "edge" of where Mother Nature has already claimed her blanks through rot and decay, and just before the area that the insects have claimed as their habitat.

I guess, technically, any knot, buldge or other physical deformity is a burl. Most of the ones I like, have to be "dug up" rather than sawn down. That is why I prefaced my remark with "to me".

Sorry for any confusion.
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I got some black walnut root burls sitting just waiting for the day to shine. It does stink LOL Beautiful stuff when done.

Burls are going to have some "issues" unless they are large and it's possible to get some blanks cut for pens. Sometimes when you have a piece of that size...tough to cut up for pens (for me anyways)
 
Hi Ed, Now you know I like my burls (and have gotten beautiful stuff from Dawn) and mainly use only burls when turning a wood pen. I'd say about 90% of the burled pieces do have some sort of defect weather it be a check, void or inclussion from bark.
Occasionally I get a piece like Amboyna burl or Desert Iron Wood burl and a few others that do not have any defects and I've sold a few of those here on IAP. Possibly this person was so lucky to get a piece of burl like this in the past from his supplier but can't expect that every time from everyone.

IT'S A BURL

Keith "mrburls"
 
Ed, As has been said several times now, I don't expect perfection with burls either. By their very nature, they're a culmination of imperfect wood grains that got all twisted and mixed up in nature instead of growing strait. And along the way of forming gaps and bark inclusions are "par for the course" with them as well.

And of course the wood movement is normal also. we hope it doesn't develop into cracks and gaps, but it can at times. Look at turned bowls for a good example of wood movement over time. Rounds bowls made out of fairly straight grain become oval and those made from burls can end up wrinkled, wavy and all sorts of shapes and textures over time.

If your buy was expecting perfectly solid material, he/she would be better off considering the stabilized burls, but even then there's no guarantee. Without knowing more, I'd have assume this is someone who is just not yet familiar with wood's properties yet and I would try to educate them as well as accommodate them as best I could. And it sounds like that's exactly what you did.
 
Sawdust46 said:
As many have already said, you expect to see imperfections in burl and they can generally be fixed by most turners. Actually the imperfections are what gives the burl its character. My experience with purchasing from you has always been positive. In this case you are providing the customer service most of us have experienced. Can you subtlely direct the buyer to this thread?
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Honestly, Bill, I don't need him to read this.

He will get another blank, which will cost me the postage and a $4 pen blank--absolutely NO BIG DEAL!!

My concern was truly to be certain MY expectations were realistic.

His comment was he will never do business with us again!! So, I won't have to strive to PLEASE him, in the future. Good for both of us.

As I said in my return email--"Life is too short to get upset over a $4 pen blank!!!"

Thanks to all for confirming that we are satisfying reasonable expectations.:biggrin::biggrin:
 
Did you ask him for a picture of it? Is it possible it developed a giant check during shipping?

It would be nice to know what he considers a crack and what he's actually looking at.
 
You're doing what I'd do...send him a new one and get on with life.

Having worked only a few burl blanks in my life I can safely say that none that I worked was free of cracks, checks or voids.

I've ruined a couple learning a little about turning them and I have seen enough info on here that I might be able to get along without ruining too many more.
 
I would not expect a check in the blanks,but small cracks(eyes opening up)are part of burl.I think it does matter the type of burl,I would be unhappy if i was sold ny Redwood burl with any sort of crck/check.It dries easy without deffects,but other burls will never dry without deffects.That is my two cents,Victor
 
ed4copies said:
This guy does live in another country---a place he called "Texas":biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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Considering Wisconsin is God's country, Texas would then be Hell.

And it certainly is hot enough to be called that without much argument!

This guy is officially giving Hell a bad name, BTW. Burls = inclusions. Period.
 
Recently, there has been a whole lot of "wrath" in God's country---I hope we can settle down to a few months of sanity:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: before the next "regularly-scheduled" elections in November!!!:eek::eek::eek:
 
ed4copies said:
Recently, there has been a whole lot of "wrath" in God's country---I hope we can settle down to a few months of sanity:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: before the next "regularly-scheduled" elections in November!!!:eek::eek::eek:
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Ed:
If I have my counting down right, I clock Wisconsin as having to vote ONLY ONCE MORE (excluding run-offs, etc.) THIS YEAR.

Down here, we've taken to only voting every couple of years. That way we can throw away the money we saved from fewer elections to advance Atlanta's traffics nightmares from SECOND WORST in the WORLD , to WORST IN THE WORLD.

Tongue firmly in cheek.
 
Well Andy, the "issue" started off as a budget problem---the state has been plugging the budget by usurping "earmarked funds" for several years. Last one, the Supreme Court said, "Nope, gotta pay it back!!" (Which, of course puts the state FARTHER in the hole.)

But, some people don't like the way the new guy solved the problem, so NOW those who screamed they were just eeeking by, found tens of millions of dollars to throw at ads to change back to the old---"stealing" (as defined by the Supreme Court).

End analysis: Vote is about the same as it was two years ago---same guy wins, except this exercise cost probably $100 million. (spent by all parties as well as the cost of the two elections). Just seems it would have been easier to find that $100 million to balance the budget in the first place.

Too simple!!
 
I had a request for a burl on a cigar pen. Made it and didn't want to sell it to the guy. Well he had it for a couple weeks and returned it, cuz it cracked; both upper and lower. I explained that is a chance with burl. I was happy to have that return. (Wait no picks so I guess it didn't happen) LOL
 
ed4copies said:
Well Andy, the "issue" started off as a budget problem---the state has been plugging the budget by usurping "earmarked funds" for several years. Last one, the Supreme Court said, "Nope, gotta pay it back!!" (Which, of course puts the state FARTHER in the hole.)

But, some people don't like the way the new guy solved the problem, so NOW those who screamed they were just eeeking by, found tens of millions of dollars to throw at ads to change back to the old---"stealing" (as defined by the Supreme Court).

End analysis: Vote is about the same as it was two years ago---same guy wins, except this exercise cost probably $100 million. (spent by all parties as well as the cost of the two elections). Just seems it would have been easier to find that $100 million to balance the budget in the first place.

Too simple!!
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Who ever said ''balancing the budget" was a priority. Politicians have more ways to slide around "living within their means" then Carter has of the proverbial "Little Liver Pills" [I presume that you and a few others here remember Carter's Little Liver Pills].
 
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If I am not mistaken, that is the first recall election in hisory where the guy was recalled for doing exactly what he said he would do in the original election. Usually they are reserved for doing something illegal or at least immoral. Of course maybe the recallers think balancing the budget is immoral.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
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