Best way to apply CA to ends of tubes/blanks

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mmayo

mmayo

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I have read on this forum the importance of applying CA to the ends of tubes and would like some advice how YOU do this. When? How? and How much?

I make good looking pens that are smooth with 20 coats of thin CA now without problems, but I am not sure about the ends. I use a Rick Herrell lathe mounted sander to true up the tube when finished.

Thanks in advance for your time.
 
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I have to admit I never when I was using CA for a finish put it on the end of my tubes? When you press in your hardware you want it to come up against the tube and wood. I have also seen it mentioned that you need to put it on the end but I definitely don't? Now I don't use CA for finishing at all..
 
mikespenturningz said:
I have to admit I never when I was using CA for a finish put it on the end of my tubes? When you press in your hardware you want it to come up against the tube and wood. I have also seen it mentioned that you need to put it on the end but I definitely don't? Now I don't use CA for finishing at all..
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Mike, you are just asking for problems down the road. At least give yourself a fighting chance because you never know with wood blanks about cracking and splitting. You use that no fume CA glue. Just a dab on the ends is all you need to seal the ends. I use the thin stuff. Put abit on a piece of wax paper and dab the end before I make my final polishing. I would not do a wood pen without it. Just my opinion.:smile:
 
I just put a drop of medium on a paper towel, let it soak in for a second and touch the ends to it, maybe twist a little. It's usually the last step before assembly... of course, I make sure it's dry before pressing.
 
3 ways I have done it.

1.Put a drop of CA on a piece of Craft Foam sitting flat on a table. Slightly dip the blank into it.

2.Dip a small metal nail into a drop of CA. Spread around the ends.

Current method.
3.I do my CA coating on a Mandrel (only thing I do on a Mandrel) with the conical finishing bushings. CA Pen Finishing 3pc Bushing Set (Delrin) Made in the USA
Using this method, the ends get coated in the process of putting my normal CA coats on. All that is left to do after that is sand the ends down. Rather than sand, I actually use a utility knife to cut off any excess. Seems like the wrong way to sand, but it works for me!
 
I seal the blanks after trimming and before turning. Instead of thin CA (which I have used before) I use clear fingernail hardener. It's very easy to apply to the ends of the blank using the small brush that comes with the bottle of hardener. I also finish on the mandrel using delrin bushings. Any excess CA is easily trimmed off
 
I don't and I have had pens out in the wild for a few years now. As I said earlier I don't seal the ends. If you get anything between the blank and the metal of the hardware you will exert tremendous pressure on the blank and you will crack things including your CA finish. Just my .02 worth. I have never had a pen returned to me for not putting CA on the ends. I have had only one failure on a pen and that was the CA.
 
Dan Masshardt said:
Does anybody have consistent issues with cracking long term (well after assembly)? Assuming you use dry wood.
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Dan there is no such thing as consistant issues with wood. Wood moves and that is a fact. How wood is finished can help but nothing is guarnteed. If you use things like acrylics or metals on the ends for oops rings or decorative rings then you probably will not have end issues. You have no idea what the customer does with the pen after you sold it. You can explain to them the do's and don'ts but again nothing is written in stone.

I will always seal the ends of my blanks if they end in wood. What does it take to add that little bit of protection?? Nothing.
 
I say this is much ado about nothing.

I certainly see why people might choose to do this, but is it something that must be done or we're going to have all sorts of problems? I'm not convinced.

In my estimation, having the ends as perfectly flat as possible is the most important. My final step before assembly is the sanding mandrel. If I put ca on the ends before that, it will be sanded off. If I put it on after, how do I know it will be perfectly flat?

If there would be a tiny bit too much moisture in the wood, isn't it possibly that it could safely escape out the ends and having the wood 100% coated could actually be worse? I have no idea.

All I was asking is if this is an actual problem people have (cracking after the fact because of unsealed ends) or just a perceived fear / precaution?
 
Dan Masshardt said:
I say this is much ado about nothing.

I certainly see why people might choose to do this, but is it something that must be done or we're going to have all sorts of problems? I'm not convinced.

In my estimation, having the ends as perfectly flat as possible is the most important. My final step before assembly is the sanding mandrel. If I put ca on the ends before that, it will be sanded off. If I put it on after, how do I know it will be perfectly flat?

If there would be a tiny bit too much moisture in the wood, isn't it possibly that it could safely escape out the ends and having the wood 100% coated could actually be worse? I have no idea.

All I was asking is if this is an actual problem people have (cracking after the fact because of unsealed ends) or just a perceived fear / precaution?
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Dan I am not going to argue with you. This is just my opinion. You don't have to take my word on it and do as you please. You have been here long enough and I am sure you have read and seen the many many posts that are posted here that show CA lifting on the ends and cracks on the ends of pen blanks. It is not the only the moisture in the wood but the moisture that the wood can pick up from atmospheric conditions such as humidity than can cause a problem. Of corse there are many more. It is hard to pinpoint the reasons those things happen and you always see the same replys all the time and it is a laundry list of what can go wrong. But no one can say for certain. I say call it precaution and why not. A pen kit meeting the blank does not guarentee a perfect mating fit. The next pen you make and sand perfectly and think it is perfect, hold it up to a light source and check the fit between each fitting. You maybe surprised. I have found that some kits such as the Sierra actually have abit of slant on the fitting so that the blank does not rub entirely on the fitting. It does not have an end piece.

To me it is just a bit more protection and it takes nothing to do it. No one is saying load up the end. Thin CA will wick right in the end and you wipe it right off. When have you ever heard of someone finishing a piece of furniture and only doing the face and not the sides:smile: Consider that pen blank a piece of furniture is the way I see it. Just trying to make my point and everyone can do as they see fit. Good luck.
 
Dan , as John says , thin CA wicks into the end grain leaving little or no build-up to require sanding to restore the end flush to the tube . The CA partly or completely fills the wood pores at the blank ends . That reduces the rate at which moisture can move into or out of the wood . It doesn`t eliminate moisture movement because it can still move through the wood fibers .

In practice , I `think`this means that you can take one of your pens with CA`d ends to Arizona for a months winter holiday , and not have to worry about it cracking , whereas one without A might crack . Leaving it there permanently is a different story . Without CA , it will almost certainly crack within a year and it also may even with the CA .

I believe wood density and pore size are important variables . I would bet that if you repatriated a desert ironwood pen to Arizona that it would be much less likely to crack than one made from an Eastern hardwood .

I guess the bottom line is to expect cracks if a pen is shipped to an area with consistently lower RH than the originating locale . CA `might `reduce or eliminate the problem . The only other ways to reduce the problem are to 1) pre-condition the turned barrel to the expected average conditions at the receiving end , then sand , apply finish , and CA the ends , all as fast as possible , or 2) stabilize the wood . Neither is an absolute guarantee of zero problems .

Wood cracks when it dries and the cracks close when the moisture content goes back up with the changing seasons . Plastic cracks and the cracks stay open year round . Personally , I prefer to be half cracked .

Wayne
 
philipf said:
Try the Woodturners Finish from General. I love it! And, it is harder than CA.
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I'm not sure if we are having the same conversation or different ones when we mention WTF or Doctors etc?

Are you suggesting WTF on the ends of CA finished pens or using WTF for the whole pen?

I be been experimenting and will continue to experiment with WTF, but so far (for me) it doesn't compare to CA. Once you get that CA shine, it's hard to go back to anything else.

As others have said in other places, if CA ever begins to give me consistent problems I will give stronger effort to alternatives.
 
Dan, it depends on what you are after as far as CA vs other finishes. If you want to wrap your pens in plastic use CA that is essentially what you are doing with it.

John, I have always contended that those pens that you see the that the finish lifted on the end were not smooth on the end! When they got pressed together it created a pressure on that particular spot and something had to give and it was the finish. It is hard to know the exact reason that wood cracks it could be exactly the same reason as the ca letting go? Don't get me wrong CA is an awesome finish and no doubt leaves a stunning shine on a pen but lets not discount the problems that are also associated with CA ie allergic reactions, unknown long term effects from fumes and others that I cannot think of. CA was developed to be used to glue a few things together and I don't know if testing has ever been done to see what could happen with the amounts that we use on a pen? It is a lot! Now I suppose the same could be said for my finish but for the most part the ingredients used in my finish are seemingly harmless!
 
I use Renaissance Wax on all my pen barrels before I assemble them. I apply it by hand off the lathe and it seals the ends without interfering with the fit of the hardware. I really don't know if sealing the ends is important or not but a little wax can't hurt!
 
rherrell said:
I use Renaissance Wax on all my pen barrels before I assemble them. I apply it by hand off the lathe and it seals the ends without interfering with the fit of the hardware. I really don't know if sealing the ends is important or not but a little wax can't hurt!
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There's an interesting idea.
 
mikespenturningz said:
Dan, it depends on what you are after as far as CA vs other finishes. If you want to wrap your pens in plastic use CA that is essentially what you are doing with it.

John, I have always contended that those pens that you see the that the finish lifted on the end were not smooth on the end! When they got pressed together it created a pressure on that particular spot and something had to give and it was the finish. It is hard to know the exact reason that wood cracks it could be exactly the same reason as the ca letting go? Don't get me wrong CA is an awesome finish and no doubt leaves a stunning shine on a pen but lets not discount the problems that are also associated with CA ie allergic reactions, unknown long term effects from fumes and others that I cannot think of. CA was developed to be used to glue a few things together and I don't know if testing has ever been done to see what could happen with the amounts that we use on a pen? It is a lot! Now I suppose the same could be said for my finish but for the most part the ingredients used in my finish are seemingly harmless!
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Mike, I am not going to get into a debate on what finishes are best to use. That comes down to a matter of choice. I use waterbase lacquers on alot of my woodworking projects and have also used Nitros. Take the precautions necessary and you will do just fine. We breathe in so much pollutants a day it is impossible to say what is bad for you today.

The point here was using something to prevent a future problem. I said some of those pens can be a multiple of things that can have caused the ends to have problems. No one can say for sure that is why when they come up all the suggestions get fired again and again.

Here you have a source of a problem that can simply be avoided by using CA, if you do not like CA use Shellac. It has been used in the woodworking business for eons for sealing. You can actually use your product for sealing because it has a poly in it and yes you are putting a plastic coat of finish on your pens also. You laid out a whole program to increase the shine on your pens so you are trying to achieve the same results, but use what you say is a safer product. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am not debating that. That is for the chemists to do.

An ounce of prevention can go a long way. If done correctly it can't hurt is all I am saying. Good luck.
 
Mike - my guess - and it's only a guess - is that its more the CA from the main tube hanging off the edges.

And I'm not dissing other finishes. At this point I can't do another finish nearly as nice. That's what I'm saying about that.


You are right - it is putting plastic over the wood. But dang does it.look nice and feel smooth.

I believe it is possible to use ca for a lighter more natural feeling finish too - I occasionally apply ca and rub out with blo on each application.
 
I put the CA on the ends to keep water from getting in while wet sanding.

When I finish with CA I rub thin CA onto the ends before applying the rest of the finish. I then apply the rest of the finish, wet sand, buff and polish then sand the CA on the ends off to true up the ends and make sure nothing is sticking out past the end of the tube.

I don't think it matters how you put it on the ends, sometimes I dip it and sometimes I just put the first coat on heavy and run it over the ends. I generally rub it however because I find running the first coat over the end leaves too much to sand off and and dipping it gets too much in the tube.
 
I agree that one of the most critical aspects of a well-made pen is perfect squaring of the ends, giving a perfect fit with the hardware all around the junction. (The other critical aspect is a correct diameter at the end - for me a few thousands proud of the hardware gives the nicest tactile feel after "chamfering" the edges with my buffer).

When using wood with a CA finish, after squaring the ends using my squaring setup, I'll put a drop of thin CA on a folded paper towel and quickly twist the ends of the blank against the paper towel. This is after I'm done micromeshing, but before buffing. Buffing will give me my best shine and also will take the sharpness off the edges. I use a Vargus deburring tool as a last step to make sure the inside ends of the brass tube are clear. A drop of blue Loc-tite goes on the hardware before pressing it into the tube.
 
Thanks for all of the input and very sorry to have stirred the pot so to speak. I will use a small dab of my thinnest CA to seal the end from now on. I made several since this thread started and all goes well if the Ca has a chance to wick in before the rest of the CA is applied to the barrel. I am about to have a reasonable quantity of well made pens to possibly sell and bad pens that cause issues later will not help. THANKS

Mike - I will buy some walnut oil product to try it too! I was not happy with sheelawax the times I tried it using their directions.
 
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