best Taps and Die's set

[workinforwood]

Recently I needed a metric tap and die. I have discovered that I like pens in the 8-11 range and thread sizes at .75. We all know that you can just go to Harbor Freight and score a cheap tap/die set for $40, and they even have more expensive ones up to $200. Either way, you open up the set and have a pile of great looking taps and die's but at the same time you have every tap and die that you will never need! Yes, I know there's a couple useful ones in there, but for the most part they are all sizes that are too small for a pen or too large with monster teeth that are too ugly for a pen. Then on top of all the odd sizes, most of them taps don't match the die sizes! Heck, my set has something like a M5x1, M6x1, M7x1, M8x1.25, M9x1.5, M10x1.5 ...ok those are the die's...now ok, so lets say I pick a M7x1 and thread a rod. There's no matching die for that size in the set..the closest one is M6x.75! I have a M7x1 tap, but that is obviously too big. If I go over to the standard size of the set, I'm in the same boat with different numbers. It's a joke these sets. Maybe you can match a brass fitting out of the junk drawer if you are lucky, but you can't do much else.

Looking at just purchasing an M11x.75 tap with M10x.75 adjustable die I was going to spend $60..mostly due to the die of course. To grab a set of 4 sizes I was almost up to $300

It took me quite a while to track down this tap and die set..I was getting to think such a set must not exist, but I was wrong. I found a complete set, which has a matching die for each tap size and each size comes in a fine, medium and coarse grain too! This set will cover all the good looking sizes for custom pens as well as several kit pen threads. I see the cigar threads are in the list, and I wouldn't be surprised if the gent and baron size threads are in there..not the cap threads, but the threads that get the nib sections into the body of the pen. I called them and bought the set. It's the third one down on the page. It says it is $299 but she said it rings up as $249, so it either changed in price or is on sale right now.

http://www.metricscrew-toolco.com/newcont.html

I see that if you click that you don't quite get there. You have to click the letter T, then tap and die sets and then it is there at the bottom.

 

[Paul in OKC]

MSC big book, page 285. M11x.75 for $11.67. Die is on page 366 for $13.30. I'd check there for your other sizes too!

 

[thewishman]

Sounds like a good set. Looking forward to hearing how they work..

Hey, wait a minute. Don't you have a metal lathe? Is it easier to use the tap and die than to turn your own?

 

[workinforwood]

Funny you should say that Paul. I just got a huge box in the mail today and it was the MSC catalogue. That's not just a catalogue..it can substitute as a stool!!!

Chris..yes, I spin my own threads on the outside, but not on the inside. It's too challenging for my skill level to do that. I can spin a rod and use part of the rod to make a tap, but having a real tap does a better job than a home made tap. It's good to keep the threads in a size range that is easy to repair or replace if need be as well. So what I am doing is spinning a rod to the same size as a factory tap, like say 11x.75. Then I use the factory tap to tap in the cap. The die is used to clean up the threads off the lathe, making sure they perfectly match the tap, and sometimes the threads just come out perfect and the die is not even needed. I think spinning outer threads on a lathe is easier and faster than using a die. Especially if you have specialty thread cutters. I have a .75 thread cutter that makes a perfect .75 thread in a single pass..so you only need to focus on the diameter of the rod being cut. Yea..I'm that lazy..but the more steps you can take out of a process, the less room for error.

 

[thewishman]

the more steps you can take out of a process, the less room for error.

Amen!

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Concerened I might have bought a pig in a poke I checked the tap & die sets I just bought at HF (the 40pc metric and the 40pc SAE, $9 per set on sale). According to the markings on the tools each tap has a corresponding die( I hand looked each one...).

Now that is not to say that the sets have the taps or dies that you want or are looking for, and they may not be the bestest in the world.

By the way what is the size T&D for the cigar?

 

[cnirenberg]

Jeff,
Have you tried Victor tap and die?
http://www.victornet.com/productpages/tapanddie1.html
Thay have all the different sizes and possibly an afforadble metric set. I have gotten the 1/2x 32 and 36 sizes there. They are very good about getting the merchandise out the door and into your hands.

 

[workinforwood]

Actually I did Cris. I buy a lot of stuff from those guys. They are a bit more expensive than some others, but they have quality and quite a bit of American made products. All my new cutters come from them, but they did not have a good metric set to suit my needs.

It wouldn't surprise me if your $9 HF set is better than my $30 HF set! Pretty sure the Cigar pen uses M8x.75 I know for sure it is .75, I'd have to go to the shop to be certain about the M8. Many of the old cars used that size too on their door locks, so if you go to an auto part store and purchase some lock decorations like skulls or dice..those are the same as a cigar pen. Most likely the average tire valve is also that same size. Too bad those led lights for tires are so big..they'd make a cool pen if they could downsize them.

 

[skiprat]

Jeff, why are you so interested in off the shelf sets?

I know that individual taps and dies generally cost more, but they are often ( if not always ) much better quality.
Also, I now tend to try and stick to only two sizes, those for small thin pens and the same again for bigger pens.

I'm moving away from the multi start stuff for caps and just use either M10 x 0.75 (smaller pens) or M12 x 1.0 for the bigger ones.

I do have taps to match a couple of the kits incase I want to use a kit FP nib or something but if it's my own nib ( BP or RB ) then I'll generally use an M8 x 1.0.

I'm also ( like you ) still trying to get to grips with small diameter internal threading but I'm battling to keep the thin tool stiff enough to thread stainless successfully. :frown:

 

[workinforwood]

Maybe you are right Steve, and I should have just bought the 3 sizes I wanted. But now I have all the sizes I need and if the few sizes I use the most get worn out, I can just upgrade those few I suppose.

I have noticed that a single thread requires more turns, but a single thread does not come loose. I can't stand the gent caps coming loose all the time. After building a few single thread custom pens, I'm starting to get the planning down. It's all about how many single threads you have on the pen and the spacing between the threads and the barrel of the pen. You need a little space to sturdy the cap, but you don't really need that many threads. My newest pen, I have about 5 threads. I tapped the inside and then I drilled out some of the threads so that the pen didn't instantly contact threads, but rather contacted them a bit further into the cap. Now it only took 6 turns of a hand to tighten the cap, and really there is only half a turn in a motion, so that's only 3-4 revolutions for a secure cap. It feels really solid, and isn't too much work to put the lid on. My first pen requires about 10 revolutions to tighten the cap.:laugh:

 

[Glass Scratcher]

The HF sets have M6x.75 and an M7x.75 but M8x1.0

I found plug taps in the M8x.75 threading at Bisco
http://www.biscotoolsupply.com/home...m8x.75_high_speed_steel_spec_pl.html?rid=base

and Huron Industrial Supply
http://www.huronindustrial.com/mm5/...de=EP5040080&Category_Code=ctt&Store_Code=his

Now if I can figure out how to see if they have starters and dies.

 

[Texatdurango]

Jeff, just to spread some ideas around, I have a different take on buying a SET of taps and dies.

As you mentioned in your first post, most sets have sizes you will likely never use in pen making. I took a quick glance at the set you provided a link to and noticed that in that set there were four m14 sizes, three m16 sizes, one m18 size as well as a slew of tiny sizes; m2,3,4 and m5, all of which will likely never be used in pen making.

Trying to cover all the sizes I was likely to encounter while making custom pens, I visited Victor tools and bought four sizes; 7mm, 8mm, 9mm and 10mm and four of the fine pitches of each size; .5, .75, 1, and 1.25.

I think the taps averaged $4 apiece and the dies averaged $9 apiece. If memory serves I have around $190 invested in my "pen makers set".

In hindsight, even that was overkill as there are several sizes I have never used and probably never will now that I have my "favorites". I have used probably four or five different sizes in all the custom pens I have made in the past year and those probably would have cost less than $80 or so.

I would recommend anyone wanting to venture off into custom pen making to buy just a handful of individual taps and dies rather than a set if saving money is an objective.

'Course, this is just another way of looking at it.

 

[gwilki]

Jeff: I'm confused by one statement in your first post. You said that you threaded a rod to M7 x 1, but that you didn't have the matching tap. You only had an M7 x 1 tap and that was obviously too big. Why is that?

 

[workinforwood]

Sorry Grant, that must have been a typo..I must have meant die, not tap. I'm just tossing numbers out there anyhow, because my point is that the HF set I bought barely has any taps in it that match the die sizes in the kit and the threading sizes are in most cases too big to look good. My point is for people to realize this can happen in a tap and die set, so you should research what's in the set and compare it to what you will actually use, or as others suggest, only buy the individual ones you will need. Most of the taps in the cheap set just sit there taking up space. There has been lots of interest from people wanting to tap their own pens, so I figure this is good discussion.

 

[Texatdurango]

Sorry Grant, that must have been a typo..I must have meant die, not tap. I'm just tossing numbers out there anyhow, because my point is that the HF set I bought barely has any taps in it that match the die sizes in the kit and the threading sizes are in most cases too big to look good. My point is for people to realize this can happen in a tap and die set, so you should research what's in the set and compare it to what you will actually use, or as others suggest, only buy the individual ones you will need. Most of the taps in the cheap set just sit there taking up space. There has been lots of interest from people wanting to tap their own pens, so I figure this is good discussion.

I agree, it's a good topic because there is lot's of interest, thanks for starting it. If I may add another tidbit....

I have been asked dozens of times why I choose metric threads over Imperial or fractional threads and the answer is simple, the metric threads are generally much finer.

 

[workinforwood]

Is it not also true that metric threads are the most common threads around the world? I don't know why it is, but metric threads sure are a lot easier to cut on a lathe. All I have to do is set the gears, turn on the screw and engage it. With the cutter I use, I can do it all in one pass, but if I was to use a typical thread point bit, I would just back out a touch at the end of the screw, reverse the screw direction back to the other end, dial the point back in to zero then add a few thousands on the top slide and when I re-engage the screw it will automatically start in the same position. With a standard thread I have to use a manual dial to count the turns or some weird thing like that. I have the standard dial set on my lathe and Gary explained to me how to use it, but I have not done so because the metric way seems so much less complicated. Having been raised on metric might have something to do with it too. It seams like the only standard threads I ever encounter are on plumbing fittings or pipes.

 

[gwilki]

Thanks, Jeff. I wasn't being snarkey.I've had times when I've tapped threads in metal and used the matching die to cut the matching male thread, and the connection seemed loose. I think it's because I was using cheap tooling. But, when you made that statement, I thought maybe I could be missing something.

I've found some good taps locally, made by Irwin and the difference in metal at least is very noticeable. It would appear that this is one area where you really get what you pay for.

 

[Chris88]

Jeff, just to spread some ideas around, I have a different take on buying a SET of taps and dies.

As you mentioned in your first post, most sets have sizes you will likely never use in pen making. I took a quick glance at the set you provided a link to and noticed that in that set there were four m14 sizes, three m16 sizes, one m18 size as well as a slew of tiny sizes; m2,3,4 and m5, all of which will likely never be used in pen making.

Trying to cover all the sizes I was likely to encounter while making custom pens, I visited Victor tools and bought four sizes; 7mm, 8mm, 9mm and 10mm and four of the fine pitches of each size; .5, .75, 1, and 1.25.

I think the taps averaged $4 apiece and the dies averaged $9 apiece. If memory serves I have around $190 invested in my "pen makers set".

In hindsight, even that was overkill as there are several sizes I have never used and probably never will now that I have my "favorites". I have used probably four or five different sizes in all the custom pens I have made in the past year and those probably would have cost less than $80 or so.

I would recommend anyone wanting to venture off into custom pen making to buy just a handful of individual taps and dies rather than a set if saving money is an objective.

'Course, this is just another way of looking at it.

What sizes would you start out with? Maybe 9mm and 10mm in the fine pitches of each size; .5, .75, 1, and 1.25.

 

[workinforwood]

The new tap/die set I just purchased, the taps have a cut on one side, so you can put them in a holder and tighten the tap for a tighter fit. Not quite as good as the adjustable ones with a screw in them, but at least they have adjustability for a tighter fit.

Chris...I'd start with 8-11 with a .75 pitch. That will be stronger than a .5 and nicer looking than a 1. 1.25 is way too big for a pen. If the material being threaded is really brittle, a .5 will be the best chance for success. I mostly make my custom pens with alumilite, which I find threads very nicely.

 

[Texatdurango]

What sizes would you start out with? Maybe 9mm and 10mm in the fine pitches of each size; .5, .75, 1, and 1.25.

I just sat down a few minutes ago and stared at my box of taps and dies to see which ones I have actually used and it wasn't as many as I thought. While I did experiment with most of them I settled on only a few. Since I started making "kitless" pens, I have used the following taps and dies:

7mm x .5mm
9mm x .5mm
9mm x .75mm
10mm x .5mm
10mm x 1mm

And since I made Lous Heritage nibs/feeds/housings my default components I also have his large and small taps but never saw the need for the dies yet.

Looking at all the pretty taps and dies all lined up nice and neat makes me wonder.... Will I ever use all of them!

 

[bradbn4]

Just a thought - would it be possible to update the bushing and tube pdf with the thread that is used in these kits?

I would think it would be good addition to that document.