Best glue for segmenting (all materials)?

[jrista]

I have been trying to do some segmenting lately, and have found that its hit or miss whether the segments stay glued or not. I am using a mix of materials, including woods, metals, and resins, all in the same blanks some times. I normally use this JB Weld 2-part 5 minute epoxy to glue things, but that hasn't been holding well. For tubs, its fine...but I am finding that it is quite flexible, soft stuff, and with segments the flexiblity usually means when drilling the smaller segments usually separate from the larger ones. I try to clamp things such that all the segments are clamped, but that is not always possible, and if I can't clamp everything then usually the segment parts separate.

Thankfully, the vast majority of the time the bit enters the final segment before this happens (in fact, I think it is because so much of the bit is within the blank that it does happen), so I usually have a consistently strait hole through the entire thing. Further, most of my segments are just flat at the moment, so I haven't really had blanks explode on me, just segments separate. So after I drill, I can usually just put glue on a tube and slide it in and glue everything in place again, and that works.

I will be doing more non-flat segmenting soon here, though, and I am concerned that I'll have problems with exploding blanks because my glues are not holding. I've tried various types of CA, the JB Weld epoxy (its the stuff I currently have), even tried a bit of wood glue on wood-only segments, and also tried the clear non-foaming gorilla glue. None of these hold, it seems. Further, all of them except one of the CA glues ultimately seem to be soft in the long run...even with the most perfectly balanced resin/hardener mix of epoxy that I can manage, the glue is still flexible and soft, and just seems to tear under stress. I've also let the glue dry under heat for a solid day (over 24 hours), for a full cure, and its still soft and doesn't truly seem to bond.

The issue occurs most with metal to wood and metal to resin bonds. I scuff up my metal layer surfaces really well, so there is plenty for the glues to grab onto. I do the same with resins. Wood is of course porous.

Is there a glue out there that just...does a better job when segmenting with multiple materials like this?

 

[Displaced Canadian]

It's been a bit since I did and segmenting. I used CA glue because of it's ability to grab and hold quickly. I also found it was very important to get any dust off the joints before gluing and a bit of moisture when gluing seemed to help. I would also use thin CA and coat the joints well when the blank was done. You still need to watch out when drilling because heat will cause CA to let go and then you are back to a collection of tiny pieces. Segmenters are like quilters, both buy large pieces of materiel, cut it into tiny pieces and stick it back together.

 

[leehljp]

Epoxy is what I use. Some seem better than others.

But there is another technique that really helps. With a tip from an early user here, I used to wind a cord around the segmented blank and coat it good with CA. Turn one end off, re-wrap and CA and turn the middle off, Re-wrap that plus CA again and turn the last part off. NOW, most people will use gauze. Wrap it with gauze and CA it good! But for the segments, I still use epoxy and let it set 12 to 24 hours in general.

This Gauze + CA outside strength keeps the forces from working against the full length of segments.

 

[jrista]

Epoxy is what I use. Some seem better than others.

But there is another technique that really helps. With a tip from an early user here, I used to wind a cord around the segmented blank and coat it good with CA. Turn one end off, re-wrap and CA and turn the middle off, Re-wrap that plus CA again and turn the last part off. NOW, most people will use gauze. Wrap it with gauze and CA it good! But for the segments, I still use epoxy and let it set 12 to 24 hours in general.

This Gauze + CA outside strength keeps the forces from working against the full length of segments.

Hmm, that is pretty ingenious. So the fibers of the cord or gauze add some reinforcement then... I'll give that a try with the next one.

 

[jrista]

It's been a bit since I did and segmenting. I used CA glue because of it's ability to grab and hold quickly. I also found it was very important to get any dust off the joints before gluing and a bit of moisture when gluing seemed to help. I would also use thin CA and coat the joints well when the blank was done. You still need to watch out when drilling because heat will cause CA to let go and then you are back to a collection of tiny pieces. Segmenters are like quilters, both buy large pieces of materiel, cut it into tiny pieces and stick it back together.

I've definitely run into the problems with CA. I have been cleaning the ends of each segment meticulously, and also working in my indoors craftroom where there really is no dust. The CA is actually usually fine with wood to wood. It is the wood to resin, and in particular wood to metal, that CA doesn't seem to handle well. The wood to metal is mostly what I've been having trouble with lately. CA just doesn't seem to bond to the metal, even with plenty of scratches in it. The epoxy does better, but the metals just don't seem to hold with the glues I have.

CA is really toxic to me, so I generally try to avoid it. I actually have several brands of CA glue here, as I was trying to find one that wasn't as toxic, and it seems none of them really bond to metal. At least, not the kinds of metals I've been using, which is ~0.01-0.025" thick brass, copper, aluminum and nickel. CA bonds wood amazingly well, and bonds to resin pretty well too. I have some wood to resin that actually worked fairly well with CA. The metal seems to be the weak joint.

 

[jttheclockman]

I probably sound like a broken record here when this topic comes up and at times find myself not answering any more but I know you are really trying to get a handle on segmenting and I believe you will have some cool ides as the more you get into it. But here goes. For woods to woods I always ( a few exceptions) use titebond II works well. I have used CA as recently as this last black gabon ebony and holy wood pen. The reason I went CA was twofold. It is super clear and has no real build up that leaves a noticeable line to speak of as with wood glues. Yes you can see the seam but that is natural and nothing can be done about it. I will post photos at bottom. Will say this if you do something like this use fresh glue and coat both sides to be joined and move back and forth to spread glue. Then I hit it again with another coat because the first coat will soak into the wood fibers and nothing to adhere to. Had success with that pen.

One time and one time only I tried to use med CA with gabon ebony, holy and aluminum when making some scallops blanks. Total failure and they fell part with the touch of the hand. Ever since I have been using System3 T88 epoxy glue and have never had a failure. I have tinted it using their tints for epoxy and again never a failure. It is my go to adhesive. I have plenty of examples in my album of the different blanks I have made over the years. I was working on a process to help with segmented blanks from blowing up when drilled but had to put in aside till I get back in the shop. I will not reveal until I try it to see if it works. As Hank said others have used gauze and also popsicle sticks adhered to the sides to prevent blowouts. Never tried it so have no experience there.

I should mention I always allow at least 24 hours before working any glue joint.

 

[mark james]

Daily usage (tube/barrel): System Three Epoxy. (Wood/Wood; Wood/Metal; Metal/Metal; Wood/All 'Polymerized materials-AKA Plastics...'

For long time adjustments (15 minute+ set time to move materials): West System 105 & 206.

CA for me has been too brittle, too prone to failure with temperature fluctuations in my area; useful for other purposes.

 

[jrista]

Thank you @johntheclockman and @mark james! I appreciate your help. I've noticed System3 and T88 come up a couple times or so now. I think I'll get some here, as the JB Weld, which has been fine for my tubes, just does not seem to cut it for anything else really. I forget who it was recently, maybe @qquake, who tried T88 for a challenging project he had as well. Sounds like a winner!

John, your work is very inspiring. You are doing a lot of the kind of interesting and unique stuff I'd like to get into...where you have dots and circles and other shapes even, in your pen designs. I really love that. I'm not worried about the basic glue seams...fact of life, and I actually kind of like seeing that extra layer of material around all the rest sometimes even. (There are those occasions where it doesn't layer evenly, or you can see how it soaked into the pours of the wood, but again, nothing you can really do about that.)

I think one mistake I *have* been making...is not necessarily allowing the full cure time every time. I have had a couple of particularly troublesome blanks the last few days, and I think I've gotten impatient with trying to recreate them. I think I tried drilling around 18 hours, and I'm sure the glue was not fully cured. I have piles of popsicle sticks, and I think for these current projects, I'm going to trim down the excess glue with a razor, sand each one square, then glue some of the wide popsicle sticks to the four sides. I'm 99% sure that these blanks are doing to come apart during drilling, but, if I can prevent the individual segments from rotating from the outside with some reinforcement...that might get me through drilling. I have found that once I am able to glue a tube in, then they no longer separate (at least, so far).

Anyway...T88, going to run down to the local Woodcraft and pick some up, as it says they have it in stock.

 

[jrista]

Well, guess I'll be waiting for the T88. Just picked up one of these blanks, and it instantly fell apart at one of the resin/metal seams. Fourth time I've glued that sucker. Clearly nothing I currently have is going to do the trick.

 

[jttheclockman]

Jon I do not know exactly the type blanks you are building but if you are just building blanks with round rings and spaces in between then do as I do and drill before you assemble and do a build on the tube blank. this way you eliminated the drilling stress. There are times that you can not but many pens I see made here with segments fall into that category and easily be built on a tube. here is an example.

By the way these were glued with T88 because I use T88 to glue my blanks to the tube and this way I killed 2 birds with one glue up.

 

[jrista]

@jttheclockman I actually did try that with other blanks that have these thin metal layers. I have thus far been unsuccessful drilling the metal on its own. I guess I've had trouble doign that with thinner wood and resin segments as well. I just don't know of a good way to hold them in place, other than trying to use the same types of glue to stick em to some kind of sacrificial piece of wood...but I doubt that would really work with the metals.

So, you use a lot of ebony and holly, it looks like. I really like the way those two go together, especially with chrome pens. I see what you've done there with those layers. For the thinner ones, though, even though they are not as thin as my metal layers, they do still seem a bit thin. How do you hold them in place and get the bit centered on them?

 

[jttheclockman]

Jon many times you have to think outside the box. That particular example, the blank was one large piece and I drilled it. Then I cut the slices on my tablesaw with a jig which is actually behind the pieces.

To drill thin metals, sandwich them between a couple pieces of scrap wood and either clamp them or nail them. What I like to do is use a larger piece of metal, drill my holes and then cut the metal to size I want. I never drill holes in small pieces unless I have to and then use some sort of sandwich. An advantage I have is I have a scrollsaw and am a scroller so I can make a jig that can hold small pieces steady. I made this guitar pick pen and had to glue a bunch of picks together. now using that epoxy they were as slippery as a wet eel. So I cut a jig the shape of the picks and stacked them in there and clamped together. Now they formed a blank and were all stacked nicely. It was then very easy to drill a hole down the center of all the picks. I lined the jig with wax paper so the blank came out of jig easily. Here is the pen and the blank I shown you in an earlier photo. Segmenting requires many jigs if you are going to go beyond the basic segmenting rings. That is what makes it fun and interesting. The pick blank is right behind the rope blanks.

 

[Alan Morrison]

This makes things easier

I borrowed this metal punch from a jeweller friend and it makes short work of cutting out rings.

www.penturners.org

If you can get your hands on one of these it makes cutting metal rings a breeze.

 

[KenB259]

Other things to consider, it's not always about the glue. Sometimes its the drill bit, and sometimes it's your(my), technique and as you already mentioned sometimes, it's impatience.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

Jon I do not know exactly the type blanks you are building but if you are just building blanks with round rings and spaces in between then do as I do and drill before you assemble and do a build on the tube blank. this way you eliminated the drilling stress. There are times that you can not but many pens I see made here with segments fall into that category and easily be built on a tube. here is an example.

By the way these were glued with T88 because I use T88 to glue my blanks to the tube and this way I killed 2 birds with one glue up.

View attachment 325330View attachment 325332

Amazing work

 

[qquake]

Thank you @johntheclockman and @mark james! I appreciate your help. I've noticed System3 and T88 come up a couple times or so now. I think I'll get some here, as the JB Weld, which has been fine for my tubes, just does not seem to cut it for anything else really. I forget who it was recently, maybe @qquake, who tried T88 for a challenging project he had as well. Sounds like a winner!

John, your work is very inspiring. You are doing a lot of the kind of interesting and unique stuff I'd like to get into...where you have dots and circles and other shapes even, in your pen designs. I really love that. I'm not worried about the basic glue seams...fact of life, and I actually kind of like seeing that extra layer of material around all the rest sometimes even. (There are those occasions where it doesn't layer evenly, or you can see how it soaked into the pours of the wood, but again, nothing you can really do about that.)

I think one mistake I *have* been making...is not necessarily allowing the full cure time every time. I have had a couple of particularly troublesome blanks the last few days, and I think I've gotten impatient with trying to recreate them. I think I tried drilling around 18 hours, and I'm sure the glue was not fully cured. I have piles of popsicle sticks, and I think for these current projects, I'm going to trim down the excess glue with a razor, sand each one square, then glue some of the wide popsicle sticks to the four sides. I'm 99% sure that these blanks are doing to come apart during drilling, but, if I can prevent the individual segments from rotating from the outside with some reinforcement...that might get me through drilling. I have found that once I am able to glue a tube in, then they no longer separate (at least, so far).

Anyway...T88, going to run down to the local Woodcraft and pick some up, as it says they have it in stock.

Yes, I used T-88 on my Goonies pen. Took several days to cure.