Beginner Question - spots on turned blank

[Jmaxcy]

Hi guys

relatively new to turning, have what may be a dumb question (apologies).

I'm turning a piece of cocobolo and noticed little dots in the grain of my turned blank (see picture attached). Is this a result of my turning or is this simply an element of the grain? Also shocked how lightly colored this cocobolo is given how dark it was prior to turning.

I know I need to sharpen my tools (next step in my learning process) and was concerned maybe this is a result of tools than need to be sharpened.

thanks in advance for helping a rookie!

 

[jttheclockman]

It is the beauty of the grain pattern. Never know what is inside a blank until you turn it down. The blank will darken when you put a finish on it. Not sure how you are planning on top coating but to punch up the grain some and add some color back use an oil to pop it like Danish oil or Boiled linseed oil. Then top coat of choice.

 

[Jmaxcy]

It is the beauty of the grain pattern. Never know what is inside a blank until you turn it down. The blank will darken when you put a finish on it. Not sure how you are planning on top coating but to punch up the grain some and add some color back use an oil to pop it like Danish oil or Boiled linseed oil. Then top coat of choice.

Thanks! I actually don't mind the coloration. There are actually spots on it that are darker / orange colored. I think it makes for a unique pen.

but the dots on the grain shown are natural from the grain? Not something I did?

 

[1080Wayne]

Natural grain . Definitely not something you did . The blank you started with was probably dark from long exposure to light . Many woods darken that way .

 

[Jmaxcy]

Natural grain . Definitely not something you did . The blank you started with was probably dark from long exposure to light . Many woods darken that way .

Thanks! The little knicks almost look like something that could have been created by a gouge. Glad it's not the case.

 

[Jmaxcy]

Figured I'd share the finished product since you guys were so helpful

would love any feedback, trying to get better!

 

[leehljp]

Those dark spots are called wood capillary tubes and they carry watery sap through the tree. Not all woods have them large enough to be seen.

While on the subject of wood characteristics, paddock/paddock wood - very orange-ish in its "just sanded and finished state" has these tubes as do many others - walnut, oak etc. But concerning some paddock will have a very large cellular structure that can be seen by those with very good eye sight. Over the years, there have been a few questions as to what some pen makers are seeing in their closeup photos. It is the larger cellular structure.

Some woods have some unique characteristics.

Now, if those spots were WHITE, that would have a different answer!

AND one last note: It can be seen in the photo that you are sanding the bushings. After 20 to 25 pens, those bushings will have shrunk enough that you will not have a perfect fit. Plus, the metal sanding dust from the bushings will discolor some light colored woods. Mandrel savers or Turning Between Centers and adding conical bushings will eliminate both problems. You will need a good set of calipers and turn/sand your blanks to size by measuring with the calipers. The fine fittings as a result of using calipers to measure will - bring about a more professional look quickly.

 

[Jmaxcy]

Those dark spots are called wood capillary tubes and they carry watery sap through the tree. Not all woods have them large enough to be seen.

While on the subject of wood characteristics, paddock/paddock wood - very orange-ish in its "just sanded and finished state" has these tubes as do many others - walnut, oak etc. But concerning some paddock will have a very large cellular structure that can be seen by those with very good eye sight. Over the years, there have been a few questions as to what some pen makers are seeing in their closeup photos. It is the larger cellular structure.

Some woods have some unique characteristics.

Now, if those spots were WHITE, that would have a different answer!

AND one last note: It can be seen in the photo that you are sanding the bushings. After 20 to 25 pens, those bushings will have shrunk enough that you will not have a perfect fit. Plus, the metal sanding dust from the bushings will discolor some light colored woods. Mandrel savers or Turning Between Centers and adding conical bushings will eliminate both problems. You will need a good set of calipers and turn/sand your blanks to size by measuring with the calipers. The fine fittings as a result of using calipers to measure will bring about a more professional look quickly.

Thanks for the explanation.

so the dots highlighted in the picture below are natural to the wood, and I should just accept them as a part of the grain? I don't love the looks of them because they almost look unnatural but I'll just accept it for what it is!

thanks for the tips on sanding the bushings. Never thought the bushings would get sanded down so quickly. I've done about 25 pens but all different kinds / bushings.

Any feedback on the finished product? Trying to make my product better and you seem very knowledgeable on the subject! Thanks again!

jerald

 

[leehljp]

Thanks for the explanation.

so the dots highlighted in the picture below are natural to the wood, and I should just accept them as a part of the grain? I don't love the looks of them because they almost look unnatural but I'll just accept it for what it is!

thanks for the tips on sanding the bushings. Never thought the bushings would get sanded down so quickly. I've done about 25 pens but all different kinds / bushings.

Any feedback on the finished product? Trying to make my product better and you seem very knowledgeable on the subject! Thanks again!

jerald

Jerald,
I understand your penchant for not liking the looks of them. With experience of different kinds of wood, you will probably drift to certain kinds or types and leave others off of your inventory. There are a few woods that I don't like the looks of because they look bland to me but there are those that love that very characteristic of it.
As to cocobolo, not all cocobolo has those dark capillary spots on them, so if you get a chance to inspect some blanks at a store, look for some blanks without them.
Below is a cocobolo duck call that I made some years ago that does not have the capillary tubes in them:

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

As to your finish: You are progressing fine. The finished pen does have a very fine sanding finish on it, almost like it is polished. If one cannot see sanding marks, then that is excellent. That is the good part. Critiquing some - on the upper barrel, the finish was sanded through to the wood. I don't know your finishing techniques or more specifically how many coats of CA or other that you put on. It is common early on to "sand through" the finish, thereby leaving dull spots on it. With experience you may learn to "build up" a thicker layer of finish. Some people like that, some don't. That is a personal choice. I personally like it myself.

Mark Dryer has a great set of "10 Minute" Videos that help with different aspects of finishing.

IN that link, he is demonstrating the adding of a finish to an acrylic blank that does not shine much. The application of that method can and will work with wood pens also. Several people use that method and it works well for them. I don't use that method personally, because I learned a different method early on. But the point is, I am not saying mine is the best. Mark took the time to make some great videos and they work!

I add layers of CA / Glue boost by turning the blank on slow speed on the lathe and wiping a layer onto the turning blank with a pouch that small pen parts come in. I put my finger in the small pouch, add a couple of drops onto the plastic pouch and gently rubbed it across the turning blank.

Which every way works best for you is what you should use. But the point is to build up layers or enough thickness so that you do not sand through to the wood. And then you can polish the fine outer coatings of CA or other finish that you use.

 

[Jmaxcy]

Jerald,
I understand your penchant for not liking the looks of them. With experience of different kinds of wood, you will probably drift to certain kinds or types and leave others off of your inventory. There are a few woods that I don't like the looks of because they look bland to me but there are those that love that very characteristic of it.
As to cocobolo, not all cocobolo has those dark capillary spots on them, so if you get a chance to inspect some blanks at a store, look for some blanks without them.
Below is a cocobolo duck call that I made some years ago that does not have the capillary tubes in them:

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

Imported Photo from leehljp

Imported Photo from leehljp. Please edit title and description.

www.penturners.org

As to your finish: You are progressing fine. The finished pen does have a very fine sanding finish on it, almost like it is polished. If one cannot see sanding marks, then that is excellent. That is the good part. Critiquing some - on the upper barrel, the finish was sanded through to the wood. I don't know your finishing techniques or more specifically how many coats of CA or other that you put on. It is common early on to "sand through" the finish, thereby leaving dull spots on it. With experience you may learn to "build up" a thicker layer of finish. Some people like that, some don't. That is a personal choice. I personally like it myself.

Mark Dryer has a great set of "10 Minute" Videos that help with different aspects of finishing.

IN that link, he is demonstrating the adding of a finish to an acrylic blank that does not shine much. The application of that method can and will work with wood pens also. Several people use that method and it works well for them. I don't use that method personally, because I learned a different method early on. But the point is, I am not saying mine is the best. Mark took the time to make some great videos and they work!

I add layers of CA / Glue boost by turning the blank on slow speed on the lathe and wiping a layer onto the turning blank with a pouch that small pen parts come in. I put my finger in the small pouch, add a couple of drops onto the plastic pouch and gently rubbed it across the turning blank.

Which every way works best for you is what you should use. But the point is to build up layers or enough thickness so that you do not sand through to the wood. And then you can polish the fine outer coatings of CA or other finish that you use.

Thanks so much.

I am using pens plus for my finish. Well I apply CA in between coats up to 600 grit to fill voids then finish with usually 4 or 5 coats of pens plus.

when you say I sanded through the finish, are you saying that because there's a section that's a different color? Meaning it goes from dark to light / purple? If so that's how the wood looked when I turned it, prior to even sanding at all. It's the first wood I've seen with that drastic of color difference. Basically The entire blank is that light with purple grain except for the dark section in the lower barrel section shown and up near the cap.

thanks again for all the information. I'm going to give CA a try again on my next piece rather than pens plus and we'll see how I do.

 

[Jmaxcy]

Thanks so much.

I am using pens plus for my finish. Well I apply CA in between coats up to 600 grit to fill voids then finish with usually 4 or 5 coats of pens plus.

when you say I sanded through the finish, are you saying that because there's a section that's a different color? Meaning it goes from dark to light / purple? If so that's how the wood looked when I turned it, prior to even sanding at all. It's the first wood I've seen with that drastic of color difference. Basically The entire blank is that light with purple grain except for the dark section in the lower barrel section shown and up near the cap.

thanks again for all the information. I'm going to give CA a try again on my next piece rather than pens plus and we'll see how I do.

Also those duck calls look great! Well done

 

[leehljp]

Thanks so much.

I am using pens plus for my finish. Well I apply CA in between coats up to 600 grit to fill voids then finish with usually 4 or 5 coats of pens plus.

when you say I sanded through the finish, are you saying that because there's a section that's a different color? Meaning it goes from dark to light / purple? If so that's how the wood looked when I turned it, prior to even sanding at all. It's the first wood I've seen with that drastic of color difference. Basically The entire blank is that light with purple grain except for the dark section in the lower barrel section shown and up near the cap.

thanks again for all the information. I'm going to give CA a try again on my next piece rather than pens plus and we'll see how I do.

I read late last night that you used Pens plus instead of CA as a finish, so my assessment was not accurate. AND the second part is that I suddenly realized what happened that you got those dark spots/capillary tubes - your blank is from the sap wood. That happens on occasion. Most cocobolo blanks are cut from the darker heartwood. Sapwood is where the growth takes place and where most of the sap fluids travel. Sapwood is also the reason it is so light looking. I think it was John T that mentioned darkening it with a coating of boiled linseed oil or other oil. I agreed at the time, but now realize that since it is sap wood, it will not darken to the level of the other heartwood.

The lighter color also makes it look like "sand through" which is the term that one sanded through the finishes back to the bare wood, which leaves lighter colored spot or places than those that are not sanded through to the bare wood.

BTW - The finish you used Pens Plus which is a combination of shellac and wax. Shellac is a good sealant and I use it on some wood projects to seal the wood before using a finish on top - including when I want to finish with a wax.

But as far as pens go, pens are handled a dozen times or more per day; much more than wood furniture. Wax is excellent on wood furniture as they are not handled daily with oily dirty hands nor are they stuck into sweaty pockets or into purses where they bang around with compacts or coins or lip sticks. Wax does not protect the wood on pens from that. Wax is not a long term protector. Wax is good for people who will wipe the pen off regularly and wax it weekly. High end pens ($500 - $2000) are often treated that way by their owners, but most people will not.

Wax wears off. period. it is not a long time finish. There are many pen turners who know and understand this and wish for the wood on their pens to be felt. And I agree, it is nice to feel the wood grain of a nice pen. But that should be maintained with waxing and cleaning on a regular basis. Most people will not do that.

The best overall finish for protecting a pen from sweaty pockets and hands and the insides of a purse is CA. Some pent turners use forms of lacquer or forms of polyurethane and those work well also, but they usually take 24 to 48 hours to cure even though they harden to touch in less than an hour. There are 3 or 4 on this forum that use a form of Japanese lacquer called urushii that usually takes weeks to finish for a single pen. That is the hardest and most resistant finish of all but difficult to learn to use.

CA is the finish that is quick and hard, and the reason that so many use it.

All finishes have their purpose and each pen maker chooses which they want to use, and that is fine. I did want to let you know the purpose behind each. Advertisements and sales departments are there to accentuate the positives of their product, but don't usually give the other sides of the product as to what they do not do.

 

[WoodsoftheRaven]

Those dark spots are called wood capillary tubes and they carry watery sap through the tree. Not all woods have them large enough to be seen.

While on the subject of wood characteristics, paddock/paddock wood - very orange-ish in its "just sanded and finished state" has these tubes as do many others - walnut, oak etc. But concerning some paddock will have a very large cellular structure that can be seen by those with very good eye sight. Over the years, there have been a few questions as to what some pen makers are seeing in their closeup photos. It is the larger cellular structure.

Some woods have some unique characteristics.

Now, if those spots were WHITE, that would have a different answer!

AND one last note: It can be seen in the photo that you are sanding the bushings. After 20 to 25 pens, those bushings will have shrunk enough that you will not have a perfect fit. Plus, the metal sanding dust from the bushings will discolor some light colored woods. Mandrel savers or Turning Between Centers and adding conical bushings will eliminate both problems. You will need a good set of calipers and turn/sand your blanks to size by measuring with the calipers. The fine fittings as a result of using calipers to measure will - bring about a more professional look quickly.

I really appreciate this group and the willingness to share knowledge and support. I wonder how you could tell what you could about the bushings from the finished pen? I will also need to start using calipers, thank you!

 

[leehljp]

I really appreciate this group and the willingness to share knowledge and support. I wonder how you could tell what you could about the bushings from the finished pen? I will also need to start using calipers, thank you!

Experience some, a very clear monitor and I can see sandpaper scratch marks around the bushing and on the blank. There are plenty of guys on this forum that can spot things like that, and it is the experience that tells us what to look for in figuring out what the problem is. Each us at times can come to the wrong conclusion as we might see something a little different from another helper, but we don't argue about it usually, because we are just glad to help one another out. Thanks for your comments!

 

[Jmaxcy]

I read late last night that you used Pens plus instead of CA as a finish, so my assessment was not accurate. AND the second part is that I suddenly realized what happened that you got those dark spots/capillary tubes - your blank is from the sap wood. That happens on occasion. Most cocobolo blanks are cut from the darker heartwood. Sapwood is where the growth takes place and where most of the sap fluids travel. Sapwood is also the reason it is so light looking. I think it was John T that mentioned darkening it with a coating of boiled linseed oil or other oil. I agreed at the time, but now realize that since it is sap wood, it will not darken to the level of the other heartwood.

The lighter color also makes it look like "sand through" which is the term that one sanded through the finishes back to the bare wood, which leaves lighter colored spot or places than those that are not sanded through to the bare wood.

BTW - The finish you used Pens Plus which is a combination of shellac and wax. Shellac is a good sealant and I use it on some wood projects to seal the wood before using a finish on top - including when I want to finish with a wax.

But as far as pens go, pens are handled a dozen times or more per day; much more than wood furniture. Wax is excellent on wood furniture as they are not handled daily with oily dirty hands nor are they stuck into sweaty pockets or into purses where they bang around with compacts or coins or lip sticks. Wax does not protect the wood on pens from that. Wax is not a long term protector. Wax is good for people who will wipe the pen off regularly and wax it weekly. High end pens ($500 - $2000) are often treated that way by their owners, but most people will not.

Wax wears off. period. it is not a long time finish. There are many pen turners who know and understand this and wish for the wood on their pens to be felt. And I agree, it is nice to feel the wood grain of a nice pen. But that should be maintained with waxing and cleaning on a regular basis. Most people will not do that.

The best overall finish for protecting a pen from sweaty pockets and hands and the insides of a purse is CA. Some pent turners use forms of lacquer or forms of polyurethane and those work well also, but they usually take 24 to 48 hours to cure even though they harden to touch in less than an hour. There are 3 or 4 on this forum that use a form of Japanese lacquer called urushii that usually takes weeks to finish for a single pen. That is the hardest and most resistant finish of all but difficult to learn to use.

CA is the finish that is quick and hard, and the reason that so many use it.

All finishes have their purpose and each pen maker chooses which they want to use, and that is fine. I did want to let you know the purpose behind each. Advertisements and sales departments are there to accentuate the positives of their product, but don't usually give the other sides of the product as to what they do not do.

Thanks for the info.

the reason I went to pens plus was the exact reason you listed, the look and feel, at least to me, seem more natural than a CA finish. I'm going to try my hand at CA again as my intention is at some point to hopefully sell my finished products to at least partially fund this new found addiction to pen turning. I'll need to break away from my own preferences and think through what most people seek, which seems to be the high gloss finish of a CA.

question on the sapwood- is there a way to tell by looking at a blank if it's sapwood or has sapwood? this blank was so dark you could barely see any grain and i Was shocked when I got halfway through the turn and it looked A completely different color. I actually don't mind The color variation but certainly don't like those capillaries. Generally I try to look at each end grain to see which side has more action towards the center of the blank as that's where you'll ultimately end up.
Thanks for your help

 

[Jmaxcy]

Thanks for the info.

the reason I went to pens plus was the exact reason you listed, the look and feel, at least to me, seem more natural than a CA finish. I'm going to try my hand at CA again as my intention is at some point to hopefully sell my finished products to at least partially fund this new found addiction to pen turning. I'll need to break away from my own preferences and think through what most people seek, which seems to be the high gloss finish of a CA.

question on the sapwood- is there a way to tell by looking at a blank if it's sapwood or has sapwood? this blank was so dark you could barely see any grain and i Was shocked when I got halfway through the turn and it looked A completely different color. I actually don't mind The color variation but certainly don't like those capillaries. Generally I try to look at each end grain to see which side has more action towards the center of the blank as that's where you'll ultimately end up.
Thanks for your help

I tried my hand at a CA finish last night, see below for finished product. It's probably not as shiny as it could be but I think I did a decent job.

I sanded to 600 with coats of medium CA in between to fill voids. Did tung oil, let cure overnight. Cleaned with acetone then did 5 costs of thin CA, sanded 1500 to 12000 dry micro mesh, then did 3 coats of flex CA, sanded 1500 to 12000 wet.

did have a bit of splintering taking it off the bushings. I'm debating whether to try another couple coats of CA to bring a little more shine, or
Possibly Sanding down again to fix the splintering. I did notice some lines when I did flex CA coat. Wet sanding took that down but seems to have taken a little bit of shine away too.

would love your thoughts thanks

 

[penicillin]

Try switching out the metal bushings for the cone-shaped plastic non-stick bushings. I use them for sanding and finishing.

If you use them for sanding, then be extra careful. It is easy to go past the edge of the blank and round it over after you worked so hard to match the metal pen kit bushings. Using the plastic bushings for sanding solves the problem of getting metal particles in your wood and darkening it, as well as eliminating sandpaper wear on the metal bushings. Repeating: Just be careful with the edges of your pen blanks while sanding.

In theory, CA finish won't stick to the plastic non-stick bushings, but the reality is that sometimes it does. Regardless, it is far less of a problem, and far less likely to result in damage to the blank when removing the plastic bushings from the blank. I apply a little wax to the plastic bushings, which helps, too. If CA sticks to the plastic bushings, I try keep them clean by picking off the dried CA crust with a fingernail.

 

[Jmaxcy]

Try switching out the metal bushings for the cone-shaped plastic non-stick bushings. I use them for sanding and finishing.

If you use them for sanding, then be extra careful. It is easy to go past the edge of the blank and round it over after you worked so hard to match the metal pen kit bushings. Using the plastic bushings for sanding solves the problem of getting metal particles in your wood and darkening it, as well as eliminating sandpaper wear on the metal bushings. Repeating: Just be careful with the edges of your pen blanks while sanding.

In theory, CA finish won't stick to the plastic non-stick bushings, but the reality is that sometimes it does. Regardless, it is far less of a problem, and far less likely to result in damage to the blank when removing the plastic bushings from the blank. I apply a little wax to the plastic bushings, which helps, too. If CA sticks to the plastic bushings, I try keep them clean by picking off the dried CA crust with a fingernail.

Thanks for the tip! Just ordered the plastic bushings. Other than the splintering, any feedback on the finish itself?

 

[penicillin]

Thanks for the tip! Just ordered the plastic bushings. Other than the splintering, any feedback on the finish itself?

You're welcome. I can't see the photo well enough to comment about that pen.

I can share some general advice about CA finishes. This advice is based on personal experience, so others may differ:

• There are no shortcuts to learning how to apply a consistent CA finish. It takes practice, plain and simple.
• Everyone has a different favorite applicator. Some use paper towels. Some are specific about brand of paper towel (Bounty is popular). Some people use the tiny plastic bags that come in pen kits.
  • I use thin craft foam sheets, cut into small squares. I like the 9x12 sheet from Walmart for 88 cents. One sheet will do a lot of pens. A lot.
• I learned that two drops of CA on the craft foam is just right. If you apply more CA at a time, it will go on thicker, but it is too hard to smooth perfectly. You are more likely to leave waves and ripples. Of all the things I learned about applying and smoothing CA, that's the one that helped me most.
• You have a few seconds to smooth the CA. Be patient, but not too patient. If it starts to feel tacky, pull the applicator away immediately - you have taken too long.
• Stand back with the accelerator/activator spray. One puff that arrives in a fine mist on the CA is good. I hold the spray about 12 to 18 inches away.
• Be patient with CA. It is very fast, but not instantaneous. If you use accelerator/activator, give it at least 30 seconds or a minute between coats; longer without it.
• If you have problems, you can sand the CA back. It will look white and scratched. That's okay. It will become clear with the next application of CA.

My CA choice is GluBoost Fill n' Finish followed by GluBoost Fill n' Finish Thin, per their instructions. I have used several different CAs, all with success. If you are having issues and your CA is fresh, don't assume that the problem is your choice of CA.

 

[Jmaxcy]

You're welcome. I can't see the photo well enough to comment about that pen.

I can share some general advice about CA finishes. This advice is based on personal experience, so others may differ:

• There are no shortcuts to learning how to apply a consistent CA finish. It takes practice, plain and simple.
• Everyone has a different favorite applicator. Some use paper towels. Some are specific about brand of paper towel (Bounty is popular). Some people use the tiny plastic bags that come in pen kits.
  • I use thin craft foam sheets, cut into small squares. I like the 9x12 sheet from Walmart for 88 cents. One sheet will do a lot of pens. A lot.
• I learned that two drops of CA on the craft foam is just right. If you apply more CA at a time, it will go on thicker, but it is too hard to smooth perfectly. You are more likely to leave waves and ripples. Of all the things I learned about applying and smoothing CA, that's the one that helped me most.
• You have a few seconds to smooth the CA. Be patient, but not too patient. If it starts to feel tacky, pull the applicator away immediately - you have taken too long.
• Stand back with the accelerator/activator spray. One puff that arrives in a fine mist on the CA is good. I hold the spray about 12 to 18 inches away.
• Be patient with CA. It is very fast, but not instantaneous. If you use accelerator/activator, give it at least 30 seconds or a minute between coats; longer without it.
• If you have problems, you can sand the CA back. It will look white and scratched. That's okay. It will become clear with the next application of CA.

My CA choice is GluBoost Fill n' Finish followed by GluBoost Fill n' Finish Thin, per their instructions. I have used several different CAs, all with success. If you are having issues and your CA is fresh, don't assume that the problem is your choice of CA.

Thanks for the info

do you think I need to sand it all the way down and start over to fix the splintering? I would guess yes?

 

[penicillin]

do you think I need to sand it all the way down and start over to fix the splintering? I would guess yes?

The question was addressed to me, but I will leave it for others to answer. I looked once more at the photo, but I do not understand exactly what you mean. Let's see how others respond.