Banished Woods

[Todd in PA]

I thought I'd ask, and answer, which woods have you given up on?

In my limited experience, these woods will come off the lathe looking beautiful, but will not hold up after a few months. It may be my home, or Pennsylvania humidity. But these woods have topped my No Fly List.

1. Olive Wood
2. Eucalyptuses (Red Box Burl, Brown Box Burl, Bimble Box Burl)
3. Ebony
4. Close but not quite on my list is Ironwood.
5. I've heard bad things about snake wood. (enough that I've never tried it).

Please tell me if there are any species that you've given up on. Or disagree with my list. Maybe what I got wasn't dried properly? Maybe my shop where I store the wood is too humid? Or too cool? Am I in left field? Or are these woods problematic?

I have an AirThings in my shop which tracks temperature and humidity. These are my reports.

 

[jttheclockman]

Have no problem with burls. Have no problem with Gabon ebony and olivewood. I have some snakewood but have not turned it yet. Have no ironwood so do not know it.

Going to have to dig out my snakewood and give it a try. I just bought some real nice Italian acrylic blanks that were expensive and will try those next. Have a very nice project coming up with olivewood and will make a olivewood pen to go with it.

 

[Drewby108]

The olivewood pen (gent jr style, I think) I made my sister over a year ago gets daily use and has zero quality issues. The snakewood pen my ex uses daily (her favorite of the group I made) does have a few cracks on the ends, but I think that was more finishing issues and it having been my second pen made. The wand I made another person out of the bulk of that snakewood blank still looks great.

 

[PreacherJon]

Bethlehem Olive Wood turns like a dream... looks awesome and looks great later in life.

I'm curious... if you are finding lack luster after turning... maybe its your finish?

 

[Edgar]

Olivewood is one of my favorite woods. We have a number of carvings from the Holy Land in our home as well as many items that I have turned over the past 15 years. None have lost their charm or beauty, and humidity doesn't get much worse than along the Texas Gulf Coast.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

I thought I'd ask, and answer, which woods have you given up on?

In my limited experience, these woods will come off the lathe looking beautiful, but will not hold up after a few months. It may be my home, or Pennsylvania humidity. But these woods have topped my No Fly List.

1. Olive Wood
2. Eucalyptuses (Red Box Burl, Brown Box Burl, Bimble Box Burl)
3. Ebony
4. Close but not quite on my list is Ironwood.
5. I've heard bad things about snake wood. (enough that I've never tried it).

Please tell me if there are any species that you've given up on. Or disagree with my list. Maybe what I got wasn't dried properly? Maybe my shop where I store the wood is too humid? Or too cool? Am I in left field? Or are these woods problematic?

I have an AirThings in my shop which tracks temperature and humidity. These are my reports.

View attachment 366016View attachment 366017
View attachment 366018

What is the RH of the wood when you start turning? 40% RH is rather dry. Maybe you noticed cracks or other problems because you brought your finished turnings at a dry environment.. i try to use olivewood for penturning that is below 10%RH (ideally 8%); for bowlturning you can get away with 12% or so (especially if the bowl has thick walls).
i hope this helps, cheers.

 

[Lew]

Personally, I have never had any issues with any of the woods you list. I have used Snakewood and the pen still looks great after a year's worth of use. I've not used ebony for anything other than segments and not for a whole pen, but what I have used is doing fine. And I agree with others that olive wood generates no problems. It may turn out to be the finish as someone else suggested

 

[Woodchipper]

I have turned olive wood and snakewood; no problems. I live in Southeast Tennessee; lived in Louisiana for six years. I'll trade humidity with you.

 

[Todd in PA]

Bethlehem Olive Wood ...

I have turned olive wood and snakewood; no problems.

Olivewood .. None have lost their charm or beauty.

The olivewood ...

Have no problem with Gabon ebony and olivewood.

has zero quality issues. snakewood blank still looks great.

looks awesome and looks great later in life.

Oh dear. I was afraid of this. I have thought to post this message dozens of times, usually directly after a crack or defect appears some time after completion. I was hoping for validation that these woods are difficult. This morning...I feel correctly embarrassed.

I appreciate this community and it's instruction. I love that the group here has said, essentially, "No, Todd. The problem is not in the wood. The problem is not over there, outside of or beyond your control. The problem is something that Todd is doing, or that Todd needs to account for in his craft or environment."

Message received.

I ordered a moisture meter for starters. And I'll look into and see what conditions I can improve both within my shop and within my home where I store the finished pens. I appreciate all who disagreed here and so gently challenged me to be a better worker of my materials rather than a complaining about them.

I have attached photos of completed pens that are in my junk bin needing to be disassembled and remade. If these offer any clues about where I need to improve, please let me know.

Todd in PA

 

[bugradx2]

Oh dear. I was afraid of this. I have thought to post this message dozens of times, usually directly after a crack or defect appears some time after completion. I was hoping for validation that these woods are difficult. This morning...I feel correctly embarrassed.

I appreciate this community and it's instruction. I love that the group here has said, essentially, "No, Todd. The problem is not in the wood. The problem is not over there, outside of or beyond your control. The problem is something that Todd is doing, or that Todd needs to account for in his craft or environment."

Message received.

I ordered a moisture meter for starters. And I'll look into and see what conditions I can improve both within my shop and within my home where I store the finished pens. I appreciate all who disagreed here and so gently challenged me to be a better worker of my materials rather than a complaining about them.

I have attached photos of completed pens that are in my junk bin needing to be disassembled and remade. If these offer any clues about where I need to improve, please let me know.

Todd in PA

We all have our white whales. You make really great pens. Don't let these species stop ya.

Perhaps it's from your lumber supplier? Not sure if you order blanks in from the net or if you have a local supplier. Maybe the wood is too dry?

Not to pile on but by "eucalyptuses" do you mean red mallee? It can be a bugger to work with but I do love how it turns out with the figure it has. I've just decided that I'll never have a red mallee blank that I turn in a short amount of time because it can be a lot of filling as I go.

I wish I could give advice on the pens from your bin that are cracked.

 

[derekdd]

I've definitely given up on turning snakewood and ebony as both crack and check badly, in my experience.

When I use them these days, it's for accent pieces on other projects like box lids, pulls, etc.

 

[egnald]

I can't tell from the pictures but perhaps you can tell upon closer examination (or after sanding the finish back off). Most of the cracks to me look like they are in the finish and not in the wood? I've had finish cracks, and a "shattered glass" crazing like appearance off and on for years. Just when I think I know exactly what the cause was and have corrected it it shows up again.

I've reworked many pens that have crack-like blemishes in the CA finish as well as some cloudy and grey spots (that I attributed to poor adhesion between the wood and the finish). Here are some of the things I've attributed it to and things that seemed to "fix" it. Prior to switching to GluBoost, (and still sometimes) I used CA as a wood finish.

Cleaning: At one time I only blew dust off my blanks with compressed air before finishing and didn't use any kind of solvent to clean them. Some woods are particularly oily and many turners recommended cleaning the surface oil off of the blank using either Denatured Alcohol or Acetone. So I started doing this. I chose Denatured Alcohol simply because it seems like a much more "human friendly" and less aggressive solvent than Acetone. (More comments related to this process later).

End Sealing: On especially oily woods, occasionally I used to get grey areas on the ends of the blanks that looked like air had gotten between the CA and the wood somehow. For diagnosis I found that a drop of thin CA would sometimes wick into the void and the grey would go away. My long term solution was to 1) sand the CA buildup from the ends of the blank after applying the CA finish and then by applying a few drops of thin CA to a paper towel as a blotter and touching the ends to it to seal them up. I do this before I wet sand with MicroMesh. This change seems to have resolved the grey issue (at least so-far anyway).

New CA: On several occasions a "shattered glass" or crazed appearance would develop. It usually showed up after a week or so and got progressively worse for the next week or two. On at least one of these occasions switching to a new bottle of CA fixed the problem. I figured that my CA had gotten too old or had been contaminated somehow.

Residual Alcohol: or "Humidity" in the blank. On one occasion I was pretty sure it wasn't old CA, and I think the problem was that I was not letting the blank dry long enough after cleaning it so there was either some residual Denatured Alcohol or some residual Denatured Alcohol that had absorbed water from the humidity still in/on the blank. (Alcohol is very Hygroscopic and will readily absorb water, even by picking up water molecules out of humid air). Adding a few minutes after cleaning seemed to fix the problem. (My second approach was going to be switching from Denatured Alcohol for cleaning to Acetone since it is not hygroscopic and it evaporates significantly faster than alcohol).

Good luck. I hope you find a solution because some of the woods you listed as problematic can make gorgeous pens.

Regards,
Dave

PS I've never turned Snakewood, and I have heard many, many comments about it cracking as the blank dries out. I've never had a problem with Sonoran Desert Ironwood though, I've also had some Black & White Ebony that has cracked on me and some Granadillo. Olive seems to be quite oily and soft to me and I have never had any problems with the wood itself cracking.

 

[Darios]

Back to the original question - the only woods that I have 'banished' are those on the CITES I list, for obvious reasons.

I do have two substances that, while not fully banished, need to really, really, REALLY justify their need before I'll touch 'em again.
Black Palm and, while it's not a wood, Acrylester. Because @#$@ those things.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

Oh dear. I was afraid of this. I have thought to post this message dozens of times, usually directly after a crack or defect appears some time after completion. I was hoping for validation that these woods are difficult. This morning...I feel correctly embarrassed.

I appreciate this community and it's instruction. I love that the group here has said, essentially, "No, Todd. The problem is not in the wood. The problem is not over there, outside of or beyond your control. The problem is something that Todd is doing, or that Todd needs to account for in his craft or environment."

Message received.

I ordered a moisture meter for starters. And I'll look into and see what conditions I can improve both within my shop and within my home where I store the finished pens. I appreciate all who disagreed here and so gently challenged me to be a better worker of my materials rather than a complaining about them.

I have attached photos of completed pens that are in my junk bin needing to be disassembled and remade. If these offer any clues about where I need to improve, please let me know.

Todd in PA

I have had my share of penturning failures like anybody else i suppose. The thing is that wood moves and CA does not. If you have used another finish for instance (friction polish or some oil) things would be more forgiving, cheers

 

[duncsuss]

Banished after trying: black palm, polyester resin, acrylester resin, wood so punky it has an infinite thirst for CA
Banished without even trying: every other type of palm

Observations on snakewood and others that are giving you trouble: I treat the blanks very gently while drilling and assembling the pen. Start by expanding the ends of the brass tube enough that the components are a slip-fit, not a press-fit. Pick the drill bit that will let the tube slip right through without catching anywhere - avoid pressure if the brass expands in heat. When drilling, ibble about 1/4" then take the drill out and let it cool before drilling another 1/4" or so; lather/rinse/repeat. (I was told that heat is enemy #1.) Double check that the tube slides through. Use 2 part epoxy glue - it is slightly flexible. After turning, chamfer the inner rim of the brass tube (I use an X-acto knife in preference to a countersink bit). Glue the components in using Loctite or CA or 2-part epoxy - not sure why I feel this bit isn't as critical as the tube in the barrel. I use painters' tape to hold the parts in place while the epoxy sets and cures - no clamps, too much pressure could be another source of trouble.

All that may sound excessive - but after the first failure I adopted these methods and haven't had a snakewood pen crack on me since.

 

[Woodchipper]

Far from an expert with wood, but would (no pun intended) individual pieces be subject to stress cracks, etc? I have turned some blanks that came out great in my estimation. Another would chip or blow out from the same lot that was purchased. Maybe from different plants or trees?

 

[1080Wayne]

Wish my junk bin had pens that look that attractive ! I would say the olive is definitely a drying crack . The others probably also , although stress is always a factor in burls .

Todd , the question you always need the answer to , is `Where is this pen going to be used , or stored if not used regularly .` If the answer is in a house or business with humidity controlled environment , you need to store the blank in a similar environment for a long enough time for it to reach equilibrium in that situation . I`m sure your wife would love to store your beautiful blanks on the dining room table for several weeks to ensure that condition is met . (I gave up long ago on a pin type moisture meter , opting instead for in-house basement storage, and weighing for large pieces .)

The pen exchanges I`ve done with both East and West coast members always end up with a crack after a year or so , at my end . Similarly , I expect the pens they have received from me have less than perfect fit to the components as a result of wood swelling .

Duncsuss`s approach is an excellent one , although he has given up too easily on some materials .

Love seeing your pens , keep working on them .

 

[leehljp]

The only banished wood for me is Poison Ivy/Oak vines, green or dead/ dried out. I did try it once. But my Doctor strongly suggested for me to leave it alone after he saw me.

Other than that, I almost always see problems as a challenge to try and figure out the solution. I had a few cracks early on, but I learned how to deal with them - for myself. No wood, other than PI/O is out for me.

Fixing problems such as cracks is much more subjective than it appears - because each step is treated differently by each person even though they may say they do it step by step. For instance, how much or how hard or how lightly to sand a tube? Hard & lightly are subjectives to each individual. How much space between the tube and the blank? Do we check EVERY time for glue in the tube before inserting transmission? How accurately are the parts aligned before inserting into the tube? (Of course everyone will say they do align the parts as they insert the parts, but the reality is that it is subjective). And subjectivity so often leads to one or more problems.

On olive wood, I had some olive wood (green) from my brother in law's farm in California (2008-2009). He wanted several pens made. I microwaved them for 15 to 20 second with 5 minutes or more between each nuke. I took them down to about 6% moisture and had no problems with them to this day.

 

[woodwzrd]

Back to the original question - the only woods that I have 'banished' are those on the CITES I list, for obvious reasons.

I do have two substances that, while not fully banished, need to really, really, REALLY justify their need before I'll touch 'em again.
Black Palm and, while it's not a wood, Acrylester. Because @#$@ those things.

I have a love hate relationship with palm. I love the way it looks finished but hate the extra work that it takes to turn it. I won't touch a piece of palm unless it has been stabilized and even then it's still sketchy.

 

[Todd in PA]

I microwaved them for 15 to 20 second with 5 minutes or more between each nuke. I took them down to about 6% moisture and had no problems with them to this day.

How many cycles, Hank? I'm happy to dry the wood this way the day prior to turning if it means fewer failures.

My home is very dry in winter, being heated by a woodsove. The attached workshop is 40% humidity, having open access to the crawl space. I have a dehumidifier set to 40.

I suspect these woods that I've 'banned' are simply more susceptible to fluctuations in humidity, or arrived at my house improperly dried.

 

[bugradx2]

this whole conversation makes me want to start a "banished pen kit" thread out of curiosity

 

[1080Wayne]

Microwaving will definitely work , but it is difficult to hit a precise moisture level . I would use a low power one , say 900 w , and place the blank on the outside of the tray , not the center . Weigh before the first cycle and after each successive one so you can calculate moisture loss , and guess at how much remains .

 

[Sylvanite]

The only wood I no longer consider suitable for a pen is Katalox.

 

[ZanderPommo]

Some woods are problematic for me, and I blame both temp and humidity. I mitigate this by making sure I bring the blanks inside the house (shop isn't heated) if it's cold a day or two before turning, and making sure I seal the ends of the blank with CA after squaring and again while finishing. With something like snakewood, I also take my time while turning and use the tool to cut as much as possible to minimize sanding. If I'm really worried I'll also stabilize it. From now on there are a couple woods I'll probably stabilize after getting near finished size from the lathe.

I'll also keep these pens for awhile before selling them, just in case they crack, but that has happened very, VERY occasionally in the last several years.

 

[ZanderPommo]

Oh, I forgot the biggest thing I've done to prevent cracking that seems to have solved the problem. Pressing pen parts has destroyed so many pens in the past for me, both on the press and days or weeks later. For the last 6-7 years at least I've used a chainsaw file to file out the inside of the tube until I can press the parts by hand about 75% of the way in, and then pull them out, run a bead of red loctite inside the tube and then put them on the press. Then use a q-tip to wipe out the excess and wait a day or two before screwing everything together. I also put a couple tiny drops of red loctite beneath the clip before pressing to prevent it from rotating and destroying the pen. No problems since, and never had any parts begin to separate from the tubes over long term. I'll also use a small amount of *blue* loctite to keep screw in parts from backing out.

Got the idea from using red and blue loctite while building rifles, and it has saved me a lot of time and broken pens.