Authenticity

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DCBluesman

Passed Away Mar 3, 2016
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Please, if you decide to participate in this thread, do not 'run rabbits' about specific woods or specific vendors. The topic is just as relevant for Bethlehem Olive Wood, Turkish Walnut or Mount Vernon White Oak. I am not referring to any particular claim or claimant, just to the idea of authenticity.

Authentic or Not?

Recent (and some not so recent) threads on the forum have demonstrated the vast differences of opinion in regards to the burden of proof and authenticity. This is not a trivial matter and has generated sometimes heated debate.

One side in the debate states that a piece is 'as claimed' and that the burden to prove otherwise is on the buyer. The seller offers a mass produced document claiming authenticity yet expects compelling evidence to dispute the claim.

The other side in the debate holds that the seller must provide material facts and evidence that support the claim of authenticity.

So, who's right?

In my opinion, we are missing a choice. We should be discussing Authentic, Inauthentic and Inconclusive. In my limited experience, I find more wood that falls into the Inconclusive category than into the other two combined.

To me, authenticity is a matter more narrowly defined as provenance, tracing the whole history of the wood to the present. Expert opinions, scientific tests and comparative examinations may also be used in establishing the complete documentation of provenance. The least valuable aspects of provenance are marketing, words, stories, promises and Certificates of Authenticity.

So how is a pen maker to know if a wood is truly authentic? I have a mental checklist of sorts.

1. What is the complete history of ownership…going back to the tree?
2. Who is the seller and can I validate his reputation?
3. How did the seller obtain the wood and what documentation can he provide?
4. Is there independent validation of the authenticity? What is the reputation of the independent source?
5. Does the seller guarantee the authenticity and what are my remedies if inauthencticity is proven?
6. In the case of possible claims against me, will the seller back me in court?

Now I don't necessarily ask all of these questions of each seller, but on a controversial or extremely valuable piece, you can bet I do. And when I sell the pen, I provide all of the information I have such that my customer can pass on the provenance.
 
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Lou:
To me, it's all about "good faith". I try my best to only buy from reputable vendors. Additionally, whenever possible, I try to deal with IAP vendors.

It is not so much that they are "vendors" here, but instead they are pen makers, just like me, and want others to enjoy the various products that they have "discovered".

With some purchases from IAP members, it is buying a product that they have too much of. With other vendors, they are trying to offset some of the costs of their hobby. I doubt seriously that anybody on this forum is getting rich selling stuff!

In almost ALL cases (except BOW), I try to buy stuff from here. Most everyone that I deal with here (including you) goes "above and beyond" to make sure that I get what they advertised.

Another case in point...Bruce119. I buy a good many "money" blanks from Bruce. He sends sample bags of currency, along with a COA, describing how he obtained his materials.

One only needs to pass a "money scanner" over the blank to insure that there is SOME authentic U.S. Currency in his blanks. Yet he sends a sample "baggie" along with a COA. All of the blanks I have bought from Bruce pass the scan test with flying colors. Yet he wants to make sure that his product and his reputation are above reproach. NOT many vendors outside of this forum would go to this trouble!

I have bought money directly from the Bureau of E & P, put it in the food processor and then cast it, Yet, no luck passing my own scanner test!

Curtis will buy back your blanks, FOR ANY REASON, including being TOO STUPID to read the instructions for making his blank into a masterpiece.

In your case, your nibs are the best (most affordable quality) nibs that I have ever used. I DON'T KNOW OR EVEN CARE where they come from! I can sell them and know that BOTH OF US have made every effort to provide my customer with the best product (in your case, the best VALUE) available.

I do buy my BOW from Israel. To me that means that I have made every "good faith" effort to deliver the "real goods".

I have never witnessed our great country MORE divided! When I was a youth, our country decided that every man (or worman) is honorable until proven otherwise. Today, it seems to me that the media is more focused on throwing "shi....t", unearthing a scandal, and tearing down good people than reporting what is actually happening. I believe that if all Americans held the news media to the high standards that the IAP members set for themselves, this would be a much better place!

I, for one, pray nightly that we return to a society that believes, trusts and wishes the VERY BEST for his or her fellow man (or woman), regardless of nationality, skin color, religion, political affiliation, sex, or sexual preference......But then again, I have always been a bit naive. And for the record, I belive with all of my being that the good people of Iran are being oppressed by a giagantic Ahole!
 
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Lou, I think a lot of comes down to trust. Trust is something that is hard to do in this day and age at least for me. But if I buy from a reputable dealer, especially here, then I trust that I am getting what I pay for. However there have been vendors here who have burned people. Most of them did not last very long. At some point you just have to decide where to draw the line on trusting your vendors or trying to prove that they are not truthful. I do think that it is easier to just trust them then it is to prove them wrong especially when it comes to wood.

I will give you an example. I am trying to do a state tree pen project. I have asked members here to sell me wood from their state trees in their individually states. Do I have anyway to prove that the wood they are sending me is from their state? No, but I trust them until proven wrong. Heck, I can't even verify that the wood they sent me is the right tree since I suck at identifying wood.

Maybe I am a more trusting individual then others or something. I guess the bottom line is that I will continue to trust the vendors here until I get burned.
 
Interesting Lou. My cousin got some Elm from a tree that was planted on the grounds at the Pentagon, which was destroyed by a storm. He got some of the tree,cut into blanks and, printed up some nice certificates and is selling pens to the Pentagon employees.(I make the pens) Since the employees knew of the tree,there has never been any question about their authenticity thus far. But what if ? Thanks for the thought.
 
This is the conundrum that marketers often face - you can enhance the perceived value of a product by making claims about the product - quality, functionality, uniqueness, authenticity, etc. The problem comes if someone challenges one of your claims. If you can support it, everything is fine, but if not - - -
 
Considering where I work, BOW is actually a valuable marketing point. So I've only so far bought from Israel. That's the best effort I can make on the point. I'd love to get the super specific confirmation, but when the seller is on the other side of the planet, I have to trust them. I can't think of any test that proves the wood is from Bethlehem. Let alone Israel.

Some folks do wreck wood (I'd LOVE some!). You have to trust the diver that he really got that wood from a wreck. And the seller that the wood being sold is what the diver gave him. How do you test that wood was from a wreck and not a submerged barn?
 
DCBluesman said:
Please, if you decide to participate in this thread, do not 'run rabbits' about specific woods or specific vendors. The topic is just as relevant for Bethlehem Olive Wood, Turkish Walnut or Mount Vernon White Oak. I am not referring to any particular claim or claimant, just to the idea of authenticity.

Authentic or Not?

Recent (and some not so recent) threads on the forum have demonstrated the vast differences of opinion in regards to the burden of proof and authenticity. This is not a trivial matter and has generated sometimes heated debate.

One side in the debate states that a piece is 'as claimed' and that the burden to prove otherwise is on the buyer. The seller offers a mass produced document claiming authenticity yet expects compelling evidence to dispute the claim.

The other side in the debate holds that the seller must provide material facts and evidence that support the claim of authenticity.

So, who's right?

In my opinion, we are missing a choice. We should be discussing Authentic, Inauthentic and Inconclusive. In my limited experience, I find more wood that falls into the Inconclusive category than into the other two combined.

To me, authenticity is a matter more narrowly defined as provenance, tracing the whole history of the wood to the present. Expert opinions, scientific tests and comparative examinations may also be used in establishing the complete documentation of provenance. The least valuable aspects of provenance are marketing, words, stories, promises and Certificates of Authenticity.

So how is a pen maker to know if a wood is truly authentic? I have a mental checklist of sorts.

1. What is the complete history of ownership…going back to the tree?
2. Who is the seller and can I validate his reputation?
3. How did the seller obtain the wood and what documentation can he provide?
4. Is there independent validation of the authenticity? What is the reputation of the independent source?
5. Does the seller guarantee the authenticity and what are my remedies if inauthencticity is proven?
6. In the case of possible claims against me, will the seller back me in court?

Now I don't necessarily ask all of these questions of each seller, but on a controversial or extremely valuable piece, you can bet I do. And when I sell the pen, I provide all of the information I have such that my customer can pass on the provenance.
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Excellent thread. I as was mentioned, will generally trust the seller that is selling it in "good faith" and buy it also in "good faith". That being said, if it were particulaly valuable or offered extensive legal ramifications if proven otherwise, I would "do the research" and expect the documentation before getting involved.

Landon
 
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Grandma taught me that there is the product and the story -- and you need to price each separtely. There is a history centuries long of stories which may or may not have been true, and it depended on the value added by the story.

I am reminded of the story of the man claiming to have had the hatchet that George Washinton chopped down the Cherry Tree --- When asked in detail about it he iterated it was -- just had 4 new handles and 1 new head.

You pay your money and take your chances -- and hope the stories you buy are indeed good ones -
 
This is a subject that I think has thoroughly been beaten into submission... I personally do not sell anything that would require a "certificate of authentication"... I do tell stories about the woods and materials I use, but only as a matter of generating interest. I am also sure to tell customers that while certain woods are "claimed" to be historic or religious, or whatever, that I cannot confirm the authenticity of those stories... to date, I do not think not having a COA has affected sales one whit.
 
I've seen this debate crop up several times through the years that I've been here. It's not an easy one to get a black and white answer on in most cases.

I for example have to trust that the woodworker in the UK that I get the English Bog Oak from is really sending me pictures of HIM cutting up those glorious black logs that have been pulled out of the fens and that that is the wood he is sending me.

I have to trust that the person in Ireland that I get the Irish Bog Oak from is sending me wood that they find on their property. They are artist that use the wood themselves, so I give them the benefit of the doubt.

When I sell a pen made from one of them, I tell the customer about it, but I don't make up certificates or anything because as I've explained to them "I can get you a certificate for authentic unicorn horn if you'd like, but I wouldn't put much stock in it".
 
Very interesting thread. Let me share some experiences. I was an e-bay seller...selling mostly woods from Puerto Rico. One of my best selling woods were Cuban Mahogany and Lignum Vitae.... well, I received several e-mails questioning my Cuban Mahogany and L. Vitae were not genuine???? I really did not understand why some "experts" in wood's id can question the provenance of both woods if I live in the Caribbean, where these woods come from!!! As some members have pointed out, this is a matter of trust...but I will add it is also a matter of common sense...if I give you a piece of L. Vitae and I live in a place where L. Vitae is native, you can be for sure you will get genuine LV...not False L. Vitae from Argentina, a country very far away from the Caribbean. If you buy BOW and the package you received is from Israel, then you can be for sure it is from Holy Land... NOT Olive Wood from California, Spain or Italy...if the Olive Wood is really specifically from Bethlehem...well, it is another story...then you should trust...
 
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dalecamino said:
Interesting Lou. My cousin got some Elm from a tree that was planted on the grounds at the Pentagon, which was destroyed by a storm. He got some of the tree,cut into blanks and, printed up some nice certificates and is selling pens to the Pentagon employees.(I make the pens) Since the employees knew of the tree,there has never been any question about their authenticity thus far. But what if ? Thanks for the thought.
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I'm well acquainted with those elms! I worked 4 to midnight at the pentagon and my then husband to be (49 years ago) would meet me after work to walk me back to the barracks. We often paused under one of those dark elms for a little "private time." Happy memories!
 
I prefer to have doubts about any claims about any wood that the seller cannot provide provenance for the claim. And the way businesses operate today, I might even doubt the provenance. After the hurricanes of 2004, I did a lot of beachcombing and discovered a very large old concrete structure with a few pieces of wood still attached to it. I can only presume that it was a structure left from some of the military training camps on Hutchinson Island during WW II. I don't know the size of the original wood but the pieces I salvaged appear to be heart pine. And any pens I make will go the museum on the North Hutchinson Island dedicated to the "frogmen" and demolition teams who trained there. No provenance, just a little history, maybe!
 
sbwertz said:
dalecamino said:
Interesting Lou. My cousin got some Elm from a tree that was planted on the grounds at the Pentagon, which was destroyed by a storm. He got some of the tree,cut into blanks and, printed up some nice certificates and is selling pens to the Pentagon employees.(I make the pens) Since the employees knew of the tree,there has never been any question about their authenticity thus far. But what if ? Thanks for the thought.
Click to expand...

I'm well acquainted with those elms! I worked 4 to midnight at the pentagon and my then husband to be (49 years ago) would meet me after work to walk me back to the barracks. We often paused under one of those dark elms for a little "private time." Happy memories!
Click to expand...
Thanks for that information Sharon. That's pretty cool. Is this a small world?
 
You cannot know for sure. Mind you, you also cannot know that you are not a complete whole, but rather just a brain suspended in a vat of formaldehyde, being fed neurological impulses from an advanced supercomputer, meant to deceive you into thinking that you're directly experiencing reality, as part of a plot by a mad scientist in a futuristic Mad Max world to earn a doctoral thesis and thereby impress the lovely lab assistant. (I've had no sleep for a few nights)

Cogito, ergo sum! But what do we really know for certain? (I'm not actually a Solipsist - just making a point)

Some people still doubt the moon landing - and you cannot convince them of otherwise. I prefer to trust Allan Bean when he says he walked there.

If a vendor says that an item is made of something, and I have no reasonable reason to doubt him/her, then I can assume that the claim is genuine. If I have reason to doubt said property is genuine, then I would be remiss to purchase. It comes down to trust, and believing in the claims of another.
 
If I buy a piece of BOW with a generic COA I don't really doubt it's authenticity. If I'm buying a blank that is from the Nina, Pinta, or the Santa Maria I'm going to need a lot more proof than a piece of paper. I think that most wood falls in the realm of inconclusive and must be taken with a measure of good faith and common sense. The bigger the claim the more proof that is needed.
 
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