Artist or Craftsman??

[jttheclockman]

I made reference to this question in the other off topic conversation about a tricky question. This also is one of those that can be batted around and I will link an older thread that dealt with this here. It has been debated ever since this site has been opened. It can apply to many other aspects of life too and other hobbies.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/craftsman-or-artist.155974/

It is an interesting read and it goes back a few years. So my question here in 2022 lets see what the masses have to say today. Do you consider yourself in the stage of your pen turning career a Craftsman or and Artist or both?? If you go back and read the link I provided you will see some very interesting answers and some trying to explain the difference. Maybe with your passing of years doing this you look at your work and yourself in a different light. Lets here it. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[Lmstretch]

Hmmmmmm, I think both. You are are Craftsman for being able to create a work of art, or you vision, which makes you an artist.

To put it in other terms. To turn a simple pen from a simple piece of wood or acrylic that fits to the hardware may make you a craftsman. But to design a complicated blank using techniques like segmenting, casting, or inlays makes you an artist!

 

[MedWoodWorx]

I made reference to this question in the other off topic conversation about a tricky question. This also is one of those that can be batted around and I will link an older thread that dealt with this here. It has been debated ever since this site has been opened. It can apply to many other aspects of life too and other hobbies.

https://www.penturners.org/threads/craftsman-or-artist.155974/

It is an interesting read and it goes back a few years. So my question here in 2022 lets see what the masses have to say today. Do you consider yourself in the stage of your pen turning career a Craftsman or and Artist or both?? If you go back and read the link I provided you will see some very interesting answers and some trying to explain the difference. Maybe with your passing of years doing this you look at your work and yourself in a different light. Lets here it. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

This is interesting in the way you put it. After all woodworking is a craft as well as an art. I believe that what is most important is the way that someone approaches what he/she does.
Let me bore you a bit with my point of view. The greek word ( in layman's terms) for a master craftsman is mastoras. The root of this word comes from the latin word magister (that means expert and also teacher) although we picked it up from the english word master. Many greek words come from italian, latin, english ( paraphrased) and turkish/ arabic. The master craftsman is someone who does a work with meraki ( passion in turkish; can also mean sorrow or grace in arabian). So if you hear an old-timer talking about a person calling him meraklis it means that he is an artist at what he is doing; no matter if he is a plumber, a cook or a musician.
Whether someone is a master craftsman or an artist it is not up to him to call himself that ( in the same way alexander the great didn't call himself great but others did). If someone has passion at what he does he will become better eventually. But maybe this is not the point after all; i.e. making great pens, but benefiting from the process of becoming a better craftsman and thus a better person.
I am sorry for blabbing, cheers.

 

[Joebobber]

I don't think it matters what a person considers themselves to be. For the sake of the post I think all craftsman are artists. Not all artists are craftsman. Simply put art is a skill acquired by experience, study, or observation. That is from the Meriam Webster dictionary. I would imagine a craftsman is 1 who uses art to craft. I am far too lazy to look it up.

 

[rherrell]

I've never considered myself an artist...never. I have absolutely no "art" abilities, none. I've been a fabricator all my life, my dad had a sheet metal shop and I started working there at a very young age. I consider myself more of a craftsman than an artist.

 

[Bryguy]

I think if you are taking, not making, a blank and putting it on a kit pen, you are a craftsperson. If you are making your own segmented or other blank on a kit pen, or making your own kitless pens you are both a craftsperson and an artist. I'm whatever others think me to be.

 

[Larryreitz]

I have been doing A&C shows for a bit more than 20 years. Before morphing into pen turning I sold photography, in one form or another. Whenever people would ask me if I was the artist I always replied "I am the photographer" and further joked that I didn't want to get my friends the painters PO'ed at me. Folks can look at my work and call it whatever they prefer. If they like it an make a purchase, the money is the same either way.

 

[MedWoodWorx]

I've never considered myself an artist...never. I have absolutely no "art" abilities, none. I've been a fabricator all my life, my dad had a sheet metal shop and I started working there at a very young age. I consider myself more of a craftsman than an artist.

I bet that if we could ask van gogh he would say the same thing...

 

[Kenny Durrant]

I wonder if this was sparked by another post that had emotions going all over the place. I thought it was a legit question and didn't think there was any hidden meaning behind it. So not to start something unnecessary here I'll go ahead and comment on John's question. IMHO it's just labels. In woodworking there's stages and I'm not sure which stage would put you in another category. Just among myself and a few friends we each have a different opinions of when something's done. We go from good enough, I don't see any flaws to break out the microscope. Another thought is those that really have a passion for what their doing are always going to strive for the best product. Others will strive to do their best. As a whole "We" shouldn't knock those that are doing their best but it doesn't meet others standards. We all had to start at some point and hopefully our work wasn't as good then as it is now. So why take a chance of disappointing someone to the point of giving up.
Not a poke at Bryan but because he mentioned it, I just had this discussion with my best friend. I told him he didn't have time to do everything he wanted so let others help him out. He wanted to make his boss a pen. I told him I'd make the blank and he could turn it. He said if I did that he wouldn't have made the pen. I reminded him of the nice wooden pens he's turned. I asked why he took credit for making those because he didn't make the blank. Next time he wants to take credit for making a wooden pen he needs to grow the tree.

 

[Alan Morrison]

I have to say that I have never been asked before if I consider myself as either artist or craftsman, I just think of myself as a pen maker ( when I'm making pens ) or a scrollsawer ( when scrolling ) or woodworker when making other things. I think that others may determine my level of ability.

 

[MRDucks2]

Back when I was into leather work, I was a member of Leather Artisans International. Artisan still has a nice ring to it.

"a worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand."

 

[PatrickR]

I worked as a graphic artist for many years but never called myself an "artist" but the word has more than one meaning. I'm a craftsman, I'm good at making things.
i recently was reading about the "10,000 hour rule"
"it takes 10,000 hours of intensive practice to achieve mastery of complex skills and materials"

 

[Bob in SF]

I try to work raw materials with humility and reverence for the material and the viewer. My simple minded view (without proselytizing) is that we are here to reflect creativity back up to an infinitely high and profoundly creative power. Art and craft are inextricably intertwined, and all of my "fine artist" friends have mastered their crafts as vehicles for their art. Art strikes me as one-of-a-kind, and craft is reproducible. Nothing wrong with reproducible.

I've been off this wonderful forum to manage some real world challenges, during which time I've painted daily - not sure if it is art, but it's fun. Warm regards to all makers. Hoping to get back to pens ASAP.

Fondly - Bob

PS: Here's a little 8x10" pastel - "Dik-dik" - tiny East African antelope commissioned by a dear friend - offered here as sentiment without pretense of art:

 

[jeff]

I try to work raw materials with humility and reverence for the material and the viewer. My simple minded view (without proselytizing) is that we are here to reflect creativity back up to an infinitely high and profoundly creative power. Art and craft are inextricably intertwined, and all of my "fine artist" friends have mastered their crafts as vehicles for their art. Art strikes me as one-of-a-kind, and craft is reproducible. Nothing wrong with reproducible.

I've been off this wonderful forum to manage some real world challenges, during which time I've painted daily - not sure if it is art, but it's fun. Warm regards to all makers. Hoping to get back to pens ASAP.

Fondly - Bob

Good to see you, Bob. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[MRDucks2]

Glad to see you back on line Bob.

I would wonder about reproducibility as an indication of art. While that will hold true in many cases, we have seen art in history that has become reproducible over/after a time. There will always be those works that are untouchable, but there are both very famous reproductions that did not render the original any less a work of art and much of Sam Maloof's work (as an example) is reproducible but it would be hard to not consider him an artist as he stretched the creativity of woodworking.

Your point is well taken, though.

 

[jttheclockman]

Bob good to see you post again and the painting is beautiful. Now I would like to comment on this thought.

Art and craft are inextricably intertwined, and all of my "fine artist" friends have mastered their crafts as vehicles for their art. Art strikes me as one-of-a-kind, and craft is reproducible.

You are dead on when you say the two terms are intertwined and they sort of have to be. To me I agree when you consider yourself an artisan you have the ability to make and perform tasks that are unique to you and your style. Even taking simple objects and making copies of them but you adding your own spin or touch to them takes them to another level. What the final product looks like is in the eyes of the maker and those that view it and they can like it or not agree with the style but that falls in a different catagory and not a title of craftsman or artist. I think this is where confusion or interpretation of the question comes into play. You need to be a craftsman in order to be an artist. Craftsman to me is a person who can take a task or make an object that is well done and done with the knowledge of skill to do it. I will keep the thoughts geared to pen turning being this is what we do. Doing a simple pen making task as putting a wood blank on a pen kit and doing all the tasks it takes to make it fit and finish to a top quality item to me makes you a craftsman. Now if there are obvious flaws such as over turning or under turning and finishing flaws does not make you a craftsman. It maybe the best you can do but to me it is just a step to get to a better product. But with that said, there is also the perspective of the artist within this simple pen and that is the selection of kit and materials matching. Even the type of finish applied.

Now talking pen making and taking that next step of creating your own blanks can take you right up into the artist level but again the craftsmanship is needed to show off the artistry to its fullest. When people here have said they do not care what people call them is a sign of no pride to me. I think you should take pride in what you strive for. When making that blank whatever style it is, uses another portion of the brain. We all have it and in some their eye is more in tuned with the brain. You are making that one of a kind or enhancing a style of pen making. Now what catches one's eye or desire to try comes into play. We are all human and have different likes. But whatever we do stiving to do the best and reaching deep down to do those one of a kind pieces is what will take you to the next level. We all have both artist and craftsman within us. Happy turning.

 

[MRDucks2]

I am wondering:
True Art is not functional but stimulates a high order of pleasure that is most often purely aesthetic.
A craftsman creates items that are or can be, ultimately, functional in some form or fashion Intended to be used rather than admired.
Building off Bob & John's comments, a craftsman can create that which is also ends up being artistic and an Artist can also create that which is functional, even though the individual or the intent may never plan the other.
I believe all of this has been said, just trying to wrap my mind around it using fewer words.
I still like Artisan.

 

[RunnerVince]

When I was in high school, I wrote a short story that ended up winning an award. It started out as an English class writing assignment. I was just a high school student doing his homework. But people read all kinds of things from the story. So in a sense, it was art, which made me an artist. But was I a craftsman? I would argue not. I maybe had some natural talent, but at that point, I was just a kid who had a single good idea.

I do like the notion that "craft" implies some semblance of repeatability, but not in the sense of being able to make the same identical item over and over. Rather, I think mastery of craft means you have the ability to consistently create the things you want to create--to take the idea and make it a reality. I wrote a good story, but I could not consistently write great stories. I was a "one-hit wonder," so to speak, and therefore not a craftsman. I think art comes from two places: either the ability to do something in a way that others haven't done before, or in the ability to do things to a degree of excellence that few others achieve.

Can you be an artist and not a craftsman? Yes, I think. Some of the best songs of all time where one-hit wonders. The fact that the artist didn't create more doesn't diminish the artistry of that one song, but the lack of craft is evident in the inability to do it again. Can you be a craftsman and not an artist? Again, I think yes. There are many fine craftsmen (and women) the world over who do great work that requires years of experience to master--the people who make any product with a high reputation for quality/durability, but who don't do anything new. But to be both--to do something well, consistently, in ways that make people go "well I haven't see that before" or "that's amazing!"--now that's something special.

 

[Gary Beasley]

I consider myself a craftsman that occasionally turns out art. Creativity applied doesnt always result in a successful piece of art but the craft is always there.

 

[jttheclockman]

Maybe we should all call ourselves Artcrafters. or Craftyartisans.

 

[jrista]

If you look up definitions for both words...both are about as two words can be in meaning. In fact, the definitions of craftsman often include the words "artisan", "artisanal", "artificer", etc. The definitions of artisan often refer to "craft" or "crafts" or "handicraft", etc.

Some definitions of craftsman indicate it is someone who is highly, professionally skilled, but may not have that "artisanal" skill, while others literally state that a craftsman IS an artisan.

I guess I've always generally considered the two words to largely mean the same thing, or perhaps different aspects of the same thing. I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive at the very least, and I think you can be both an artisan and a craftsman. I think the artisan is more the aspect of the aesthetics of the piece...how the pen looks, its style, etc., while the craftsman is about the way it is crafted...the tooling, finish, the fitting of parts & segments, etc.

I would say there is an aspect of both artisan in the turning, finishing, construction of custom/segmented blanks, as well as an aspect of the craftsman in the same, even say the construction of custom/segmented blanks. You are CRAFTING something, even if its just a blank...and at the same time, you can be creating a work of ART as well. I would certainly say that many, most, of the custom segmented blanks shared on this site demonstrate great skill in both crafting and art...the craftsman is creating art, and is therefor an artisan at the same time (which would explain why so many definitions of the word "craftsman" use the words artisan, artisanal, artificer, "skill in the arts", etc.)

Keep in mind...art doesn't necessarily have to be flashy, fantastic, abstract or anything like that...even a simple piece can be highly artistic, in and of itself, as well as in the right setting.

 

[jrista]

I've never considered myself an artist...never. I have absolutely no "art" abilities, none. I've been a fabricator all my life, my dad had a sheet metal shop and I started working there at a very young age. I consider myself more of a craftsman than an artist.

Looking at some of you pens...you certainly seem to demonstrate artistic abilities!