Jim Nugent
Member
I've been doing OK with CA and accellerant, but I would like to look at some alternatives. I've used PenPlus, but it sometimes gums up on me. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.
Alternatives to CA finishes?
- Thread starter Jim Nugent
- Start date
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howsitwork
Member
Melamine lacquered but thin it first or it can set too quick if applied with a fine haired brush and leave faint lines .
apparently if you apply by soft cloth and rub on, it's easier ( only told today and not tried it that way yet) .
apparently if you apply by soft cloth and rub on, it's easier ( only told today and not tried it that way yet) .
JimB
Member
Wipe on poly.
penicillin
Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2019
- Messages
- 1,036
Sharing my mixed results, not wholly recommended:
Hut Crystal Coat. Hut Crystal Coat is a friction polish made with alcohol, shellac, and carnauba wax. It polishes up with heat from friction on the turning lathe. They use it in the local Rockler pen turning class. A pen making friend recommended it when I started on pens about a year ago. It is fast and easy, but with drawbacks, see below. I have been watching the shelf at my local Rockler and it has been out of stock for a while. Woodcraft says that it will be available on 1 December.
https://www.rockler.com/crystal-coat
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/hut-crystal-coat
Pros:
* Half the cost of similar products like Shellawax and Mylands.
* Very easy to apply and polish.
* Fast. You are done with the finish in a couple minutes.
* Highlights the grain on dark woods better than CA finishes. When CA made my bog oak and dark rosewood pens turn black, I used Hut Crystal Coat for more pleasing results that highlighted the grain.
* Looks and feels nice to the touch.
Cons:
* Like all friction polishes with wax, it is not nearly as durable as a CA finish.
* Despite the hype, I find it difficult to get a super high gloss shine with it. Sometimes I luck out, but most of the time I get a marginally shiny finish. The finish looks natural and feels good.
Next up for me:
* When the Hut Crystal Coat is gone or expired, I plan to try the more expensive products to see if they make a difference. I have not decided between EEE, Shellawax, or Mylands friction polish or a combination:
https://www.rockler.com/eee-ultra-shine-woodturners-finish
https://www.rockler.com/shellawax-liquid-friction-polish
https://www.rockler.com/high-friction-build-polish
* I have some Tried and True original and varnish oil finishes from a different project. I may try them on pens, just to see. My concern is durability and the waiting time between coats.
With plastic blanks, I use sandpaper, then all nine Micro-mesh pads (wet), then Hut Ultra Gloss Plastic Polish:
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/hut-ultra-gloss-plastic-polish
Hut Crystal Coat. Hut Crystal Coat is a friction polish made with alcohol, shellac, and carnauba wax. It polishes up with heat from friction on the turning lathe. They use it in the local Rockler pen turning class. A pen making friend recommended it when I started on pens about a year ago. It is fast and easy, but with drawbacks, see below. I have been watching the shelf at my local Rockler and it has been out of stock for a while. Woodcraft says that it will be available on 1 December.
https://www.rockler.com/crystal-coat
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/hut-crystal-coat
Pros:
* Half the cost of similar products like Shellawax and Mylands.
* Very easy to apply and polish.
* Fast. You are done with the finish in a couple minutes.
* Highlights the grain on dark woods better than CA finishes. When CA made my bog oak and dark rosewood pens turn black, I used Hut Crystal Coat for more pleasing results that highlighted the grain.
* Looks and feels nice to the touch.
Cons:
* Like all friction polishes with wax, it is not nearly as durable as a CA finish.
* Despite the hype, I find it difficult to get a super high gloss shine with it. Sometimes I luck out, but most of the time I get a marginally shiny finish. The finish looks natural and feels good.
Next up for me:
* When the Hut Crystal Coat is gone or expired, I plan to try the more expensive products to see if they make a difference. I have not decided between EEE, Shellawax, or Mylands friction polish or a combination:
https://www.rockler.com/eee-ultra-shine-woodturners-finish
https://www.rockler.com/shellawax-liquid-friction-polish
https://www.rockler.com/high-friction-build-polish
* I have some Tried and True original and varnish oil finishes from a different project. I may try them on pens, just to see. My concern is durability and the waiting time between coats.
With plastic blanks, I use sandpaper, then all nine Micro-mesh pads (wet), then Hut Ultra Gloss Plastic Polish:
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/hut-ultra-gloss-plastic-polish
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
I will only comment on what I use: Wipe on poly or Glu Boost.
I do not turn many pens annually.
I do not have to cater to customers.
If you do either, your needs will be different.
When I do segmented blanks (20-250+ segments), I have previously preferred WOP - Wipe On Polyurethane as I thought that the additional slight flexibility of the Poly would be good.
In these cases, I would use a slow speed turning mandrel, and apply 3-5 coats, under a heat light for 45-60 minutes. I could apply another coat every hr.
After 10-20 hrs, I could have easily 5-6 coats.
Recently, I have been using Glu Boost which is a CA formula. I can apply 3-4 coats of thin, then 3-4 coats medium, within 15-20 minutes. After wet sanding with micromesh and sanding, all is good. It results in a smooth finish - like plastic.
When customers/folks do not desire a "plastic" feel finish, then WOP may be a better choice. Just my opinion!
So, A Ca finish or a WOP finish - all depends on what you have to start with and what you want to finish with.
AND - All this is Just My Opinion!
I do not turn many pens annually.
I do not have to cater to customers.
If you do either, your needs will be different.
When I do segmented blanks (20-250+ segments), I have previously preferred WOP - Wipe On Polyurethane as I thought that the additional slight flexibility of the Poly would be good.
In these cases, I would use a slow speed turning mandrel, and apply 3-5 coats, under a heat light for 45-60 minutes. I could apply another coat every hr.
After 10-20 hrs, I could have easily 5-6 coats.
Recently, I have been using Glu Boost which is a CA formula. I can apply 3-4 coats of thin, then 3-4 coats medium, within 15-20 minutes. After wet sanding with micromesh and sanding, all is good. It results in a smooth finish - like plastic.
When customers/folks do not desire a "plastic" feel finish, then WOP may be a better choice. Just my opinion!
So, A Ca finish or a WOP finish - all depends on what you have to start with and what you want to finish with.
AND - All this is Just My Opinion!
I don't have an alternative beyond what all have mentioned (except Solarez, AlumiUV, liquified clear acylic, diamond coat, - none are as easy to work with as CA or the others.), but I do know that Pens Plus (it's just walnut oil, lacquer, and some "secret sauce" possibly) has to be applied almost hot and allowed to cool. The videos don't show that, but that has been my experience. I grip the paper towel or t shirt material (small piece so it doesn't catch anything) very tight and spin it at 2500 rpms. When it is almost too hot to the touch, I stop, let it cool for a minute and then continue. Same goes for the micro abrasive wax. You may be doing all of this already. Just try to give you a suggestion. Happy turning!
leehljp
Member Liaison
I have not been able to wrap my mind around different forms of waxes and polishes UNLESS the pen owner KNOWS to apply it about every 2 to 3 days or at least once a week at the longest. Those finishes are going to wipe / wear off. That is great for high end pen owners who care for their pens and put as much time in their up keep as they do for the pen's use. However, most people will not.
I was really embarrassed almost 15 years ago (had just started pen turning) because I put a great ShellaWax finish on a beautiful Purple Heart pen, gave it to a friend of my wife and then a week later, she asked me what she did wrong to the pen! I looked at it and realized that Wax finishes wiped/rubbed off with use.
I was really embarrassed almost 15 years ago (had just started pen turning) because I put a great ShellaWax finish on a beautiful Purple Heart pen, gave it to a friend of my wife and then a week later, she asked me what she did wrong to the pen! I looked at it and realized that Wax finishes wiped/rubbed off with use.
jttheclockman
Member
I only use CA on wood pens but if I had to I would use spray on lacquer hands down. Durable, flexible, easily repaired if need be and pick any shine you want easy clean up and no dipping and dripping involved. Never could figure that dipping thing because it does accumulate at the bottom of the blank. But that is just me I guess.
budnder
Member
I like Arrow Finish the couple of times I've used it:
It's my current go to for things I make for myself where I want to maintain the feeling of wood. Can't speak to how durable it is yet.
It's my current go to for things I make for myself where I want to maintain the feeling of wood. Can't speak to how durable it is yet.
Which brand/formula do you like? And why don't you use it on pens? Thanks!
jttheclockman
Member
Tony when I do some scrollsawn pieces and they require a top coat finish and there is not too many, I will use Deft or Watco. If I have a large amount of projects then I break out the HVLP gun and use waterbased lacquer and spray them.
As for pens, being I do not make many wood pens, I just stick with the CA finish which I have been doing for many years.
I have become pretty good at that so just stick with it. As they say if it is not broke do not fix it. But I would have no problem with using lacquer if I need a quick pen. I bet many of these fancy pen finishes have either lacquer or poly as the base ingredient in them, if they are not a CA form of finish. Not much else out there to use as a top coat.
monophoto
Member
Most versions of 'friction polish' are based on shellac, and will degrade fairly rapidly when applied to something like a pen that is handled a lot. But it is possible to concoct a friction polish using lacquer that holds up much better. PSI's house-brand friction polish is a lacquer product, and is the same product as the William Woodright friction polish, but I make my own - equal quantities of pure tung oil (you could also use BLO), a brushing lacquer such as Deft or Watco, and lacquer thinner. Shake well before using, apply with the lathe spinning, and rub to create friction and heat.
I have also had very good success with polyurethane - either a commercial solvent-based WOP such as Minwax, or a water-based polyurethane floor finish. Just be aware that solvent-based poly is amber in color, while water-based poly is somewhere between colorless and faint blue; waterbased floor finish is very tough and holds up well (after all, it's designed to be walked on), but you should test it on a scrap of the timber to decide if you like the appearance. I find that it's OK on darker timbers, but I don't care for its appearance when the timber is light in color.
I have also had very good success with polyurethane - either a commercial solvent-based WOP such as Minwax, or a water-based polyurethane floor finish. Just be aware that solvent-based poly is amber in color, while water-based poly is somewhere between colorless and faint blue; waterbased floor finish is very tough and holds up well (after all, it's designed to be walked on), but you should test it on a scrap of the timber to decide if you like the appearance. I find that it's OK on darker timbers, but I don't care for its appearance when the timber is light in color.
Thank you John.
jttheclockman
Member
No problem Tony. Just was outside and cut the grass. After that I sprayed 3 scrollsawn plaques with Watco satin clear lacquer. 5 or 6 coats and such a nice day for drying it was easy to finish. Still not in pen mode yet. Still woodworking. Sometime in mid Dec. I should be able to switch over if no big order comes in. Will be good to get back to making some new designed pens and trying some new things.
Urushi is great, hard to get, with a learning curve but it is the nicest finish I know, and for sure the most durable (around 7000 years).
If you are concerned with durability, forget wax and polish. Drying oil (tung, aussie, linseed,...) gives good results on hard woods sanded and carefully polished: as it is an impregnation, it will stay in the wood and not wear out. Great for rosewood for instance, but it does not work so well on soft woods though.
If you are concerned with durability, forget wax and polish. Drying oil (tung, aussie, linseed,...) gives good results on hard woods sanded and carefully polished: as it is an impregnation, it will stay in the wood and not wear out. Great for rosewood for instance, but it does not work so well on soft woods though.
Jim Nugent
Member
Any problems with allergic reactions with the Urushi?
WriteON
Member
Tru-Oil... Take your time. A few coats. Can be high shined. Rub it on. Let dry. Repeat. Like any other oils, finishes....wear a respirator. Tru-Oil is brutal.
I have been using Danish Oil lately on canes. Gives a beautiful nice natural look.
I have been using Danish Oil lately on canes. Gives a beautiful nice natural look.
FrankH4
Member
I've had luck with gorilla glue the polyurethane one then Mylands friction polish after it. It seems like it seems and holds up to everyday use. I use mine everday all day at work have it yet to rub off or dull. Have to be careful on open grain woods and engravings. The glue does foam up and you'll see the foam fill in the grain.
Jim Nugent
Member
Thanks for all the great advice! I'll keep you all posted
mmayo
Member
I really think that CA is the answer, not something to avoid and find alternative methods. I get that for some it is hard: try new techniques, be more consistent, don't rush, be easier with acceleration, sand only with 400 grit and above, buy the Beale Buff System and see great results. I am removing all non-CA pens from for sale areas. I regret selling any with lesser finishes. Leehljp was RIGHT-many moons ago when he said the other methods were inferior and is right now.
Disagree if you will but sales tell the tale, put a well finished non CA next to a well finished CA - the customer will pick the CA.
Disagree if you will but sales tell the tale, put a well finished non CA next to a well finished CA - the customer will pick the CA.
Gopher44
Member
If anyone is still interested in pursuing a high-gloss alternative to CA, here is the process I used on two pens I recently made.
Although, I like a matte or slight sheen on most of my projects. I have been trying to achieve a high gloss and durable finish without using CA. I have been able to do so in the past using Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil on bubinga knife scales. The finish has held up really well over the years without the need for reconditioning. I thought I might try the same method on pens. I am posting this to share my process and experience with everyone. Please attempt this method at your own risk. Any feedback is welcomed with open arms!
Region: California (warm and dry)
Species: African Blackwood
Day 1: Sanded to 3000 grit. Hand rubbed Tru-Oil. Dried for 24 hours. Color of the wood was significantly darker, but shined great in the light.
Day2: Appearance was very glossy, texture was tacky (very slight) and rough. Sanded lightly with 2500 then 3000 grit at roughly 800 RPM. Appearance was dull with a few shiny spots where the pores were and texture was smooth after sanding. Hand rubbed 2nd coat.
After 6 hours: appearance is glossy, dark, somewhat difficult to see grain even in light with a few high points where run off developed. Texture was decently smooth.
Day 3: Appearance was dry, dark, and glossy, difficult to see grain even in full sunlight. Texture was smooth and dry. Lightly wet sanded with 3000 grit sandpaper, resulted in dull appearance with few shiny spots. Applied light coat of Tru-Oil (2 drops) with hand.
Day 4: Applied thin coat of oil hand rubbed
Day 5: Appearance was dark and glossy, shines really nice once oil is applied. Texture was smooth with only a few spots where you can feel a bump, possibly from dust? Applied thin coat of oil.
Day 6: Allow to dry
Day 7: Finished. Appearance is glossy, grain is dark, visible defect from user error. Texture is very smooth.
Species: Mahogany
Day 1: Sanded to 3000 grit. Hand rubbed Tru-Oil. Appearance is slightly darker with rich color. Grain pops nicely. Dried for 24 hours.
Day2: Appearance was very glossy, texture was dry and rough. Wet sanded lightly using 3000 grit and Tru-oil as lubricant at roughly 800 RPM. Hand rubbed 2nd coat.
After 6 hours: appearance was glossy, good grain detail, warm color. Texture was dry, smooth (not buttery). Applied thin 3rd coat with rag on one tube, hand rubbed on the other tube. Will how each one yields.
Day 3: Appearance was glossy. Texture was dry and smooth, but still not satisfied.
Day 4: Allowed to dry for 32 hours.
Day 5: Appearance was same as previous, getting more consistently smooth. Applied thin coat of oil.
Day 6: Allow to dry
Day 7: Finished. Appearance very glossy, texture was smooth.
What did I learn?
There are a few key points and takeaways that can be gained from this experiment:
• This process does not work well for darker woods, it's possible that my initial coats may have been too thick which may have resulted in an undesirable finish
• APPLY EXTREMELY THIN COATS, best results were achieved when 1-3 drops of Tru-oil was applied directly to the pen blank and hand rubbed using a glove.
• Allow each coat to dry for at least 24 hours or until most of the smell of the solvent has dissipated. Often times, each coat had mostly dried within a few hours, but were allowed to dry longer for precautionary measures.
• Have patience. This is a long process that is best done in large batches, but it is well worth the reward if you are trying to achieve a high gloss finish without using CA Glue.
Although, I like a matte or slight sheen on most of my projects. I have been trying to achieve a high gloss and durable finish without using CA. I have been able to do so in the past using Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil on bubinga knife scales. The finish has held up really well over the years without the need for reconditioning. I thought I might try the same method on pens. I am posting this to share my process and experience with everyone. Please attempt this method at your own risk. Any feedback is welcomed with open arms!
Region: California (warm and dry)
Species: African Blackwood
Day 1: Sanded to 3000 grit. Hand rubbed Tru-Oil. Dried for 24 hours. Color of the wood was significantly darker, but shined great in the light.
Day2: Appearance was very glossy, texture was tacky (very slight) and rough. Sanded lightly with 2500 then 3000 grit at roughly 800 RPM. Appearance was dull with a few shiny spots where the pores were and texture was smooth after sanding. Hand rubbed 2nd coat.
After 6 hours: appearance is glossy, dark, somewhat difficult to see grain even in light with a few high points where run off developed. Texture was decently smooth.
Day 3: Appearance was dry, dark, and glossy, difficult to see grain even in full sunlight. Texture was smooth and dry. Lightly wet sanded with 3000 grit sandpaper, resulted in dull appearance with few shiny spots. Applied light coat of Tru-Oil (2 drops) with hand.
Day 4: Applied thin coat of oil hand rubbed
Day 5: Appearance was dark and glossy, shines really nice once oil is applied. Texture was smooth with only a few spots where you can feel a bump, possibly from dust? Applied thin coat of oil.
Day 6: Allow to dry
Day 7: Finished. Appearance is glossy, grain is dark, visible defect from user error. Texture is very smooth.
Species: Mahogany
Day 1: Sanded to 3000 grit. Hand rubbed Tru-Oil. Appearance is slightly darker with rich color. Grain pops nicely. Dried for 24 hours.
Day2: Appearance was very glossy, texture was dry and rough. Wet sanded lightly using 3000 grit and Tru-oil as lubricant at roughly 800 RPM. Hand rubbed 2nd coat.
After 6 hours: appearance was glossy, good grain detail, warm color. Texture was dry, smooth (not buttery). Applied thin 3rd coat with rag on one tube, hand rubbed on the other tube. Will how each one yields.
Day 3: Appearance was glossy. Texture was dry and smooth, but still not satisfied.
Day 4: Allowed to dry for 32 hours.
Day 5: Appearance was same as previous, getting more consistently smooth. Applied thin coat of oil.
Day 6: Allow to dry
Day 7: Finished. Appearance very glossy, texture was smooth.
What did I learn?
There are a few key points and takeaways that can be gained from this experiment:
• This process does not work well for darker woods, it's possible that my initial coats may have been too thick which may have resulted in an undesirable finish
• APPLY EXTREMELY THIN COATS, best results were achieved when 1-3 drops of Tru-oil was applied directly to the pen blank and hand rubbed using a glove.
• Allow each coat to dry for at least 24 hours or until most of the smell of the solvent has dissipated. Often times, each coat had mostly dried within a few hours, but were allowed to dry longer for precautionary measures.
• Have patience. This is a long process that is best done in large batches, but it is well worth the reward if you are trying to achieve a high gloss finish without using CA Glue.
sorcerertd
Member
Am I wrong to leave naturally oily woods that buff to a nice sheen unfinished? Bocote, for example, seems very durable, buffs to a pretty nice sheen with no finish at all, and I would think that with use and handling the oil from your hands will help a little. Rosewoods, such as cocobolo are pretty oily. I definitely do CA finishes, but sometimes I just like to leave that more rustic, natural wood feel.