A call for CSUSA and you Finishing Experts!

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Ryan

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Hello All!

I am new to this site. I found it while looking for some help as to why my friction polish is wearing off within 30 minutes of handling it. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

My finishing schedule is this.

1) Sand through 400.
2) Apply EEE Shine with lathe off
3) Buff with lathe on until no more residue is going to my rag.
4) On occasion I will do step 2 & 3 again.
5) I then apply the FP and burn it in real good. I repeat this step 3-4 times and inspect for streaks or dry spots. If there are none I let it cure overnight before I put the pen together.

I Did 40 Box Elder Burls this way for Christmas and did not notice a problem. It was not until I did my first pen for me out of Curly Black Walnut that I noticed a problem. I did the pen on my 30th Birthday and wanted it to be special. It was a beautiful blank and took my time with it. I took it to work and within 2 hours of use it was dulling due to the FP coming off.

After another month of solid use the FP has continued to stick on some spots of the pen but not others. I started to wonder if it had something to do with the combination of EEE and the FP which is the Craft Supply FP. I called them and they said you have to put the FP on first then the EEE. This was due to the Wax in the EEE. I made a quick slim line for my 4 year old but was not happy with the shine with this method. I then looked at the Craft Supply catalog and on the EEE Shine it said put it before the FP. ???? Another call to them resulted in yet another answer. With the great customer service they offer they said bring back the EEE if you are not happy and give the Ren Wax a try.

I live about 30 minutes away from their store so on my next trip to pick up my next order I took the problem pen with me. They looked at it and said you need to put MORE friction polish on it and try some 0000 steel wool between coats. OK I thought even though I am not a fan of steel wool.

My next pen was a Thuya Burl I picked up that day. I followed the finishing schedule above but this time with more coats and 0000 SW between coats. WOW did that thing shine. I let it cure for 24 hours before handling it and with in 30 minutes of handling it during assembly and showing it to some co-workers (one of which ordered it) the FP is already wearing off.

To me, it seems to not be sticking for some reason. So now the call to Nils/CSUSA and all you finishing experts. PLEASE help me figure this out as I do not dare start and restart on my pen orders until I know why this is happening.

Is my FP bad? Its only 3 months old.
Are the EEE and the FP not compatible?

Sorry for the long post, but your help is needed and appreciated.

Thanks,
Ryan
[}:)][?]
 
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Hi Ryan and welcome. Check out this link. It discusses finishing reasonably well. After reading it, please feel free to post additional questions or to email me. http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3939&whichpage=1#34401
 
Ryan
I will give you my thoughts on your problem but it will start a finish war. First some people have a lot of acid in their sweat I for one. This has a tendancy to get thru some oils and finish very quick. Friction polish is nothing more than shellac and wax. It will shine up very high but will not hold over a period of time. You can use Ren wax or TSW on top and this will extend the time of wear and can be buffed back up. I would advocate investing in a set of Micro Mesh and using it as your finial sanding then look into the post and try BLO/CA or Enduro Finishes. This is only my opinion as many people have many different ways of finishing which you will hear in other post. You will find one that works for you.
 
Friction Polish is not a lasting finish... it is going to dull and wear over time... usually a short time...
That is why most of us here do not use it for a high gloss lasting finish...
Take a look at the threads on using either a CA or Lacquer finish if you are looking for something that is going to last...
The pen below was done in Curly Koa.. I use sanding sealer buffed with 0000 steel wool then 4 coats of thick CA, sanded to 12000 MicroMesh then Hut Plastic Polish. It is a Gold Baron Fountain Pen...
Baron.jpg
 
I may be wrong also, but I also believe that the EEE (which I do use), and the Shellawax FP are not really intended to be a final finish. Personally, I consider them to be nothing more than just the last step in the sanding process. There are a hundred and one ways to finish pens, and some work, some do not. I usually end up using either a poly dipped finish, a Deft spray finish, or Minwax furniture paste wax, depending on the wood, and the final look I want to achieve. I am no means any expert, this is just what I find works for me, and am very happy with the results. I may also have just found a 4th finish, after reading toms' technique!
 
There are two (2) things that can happen when you put another finish over the top of a wax.

IF the wax IS soluble in the thinner or solvents used for the new finish, the wax will be absorbed into the new finish and act as a plasticizer. It will make the finish softer and more flexible than it would have been without the wax. How soft and how flexible depends on how much wax. The same works for oils.

If the wax IS NOT soluble with either the thinners or solvents in the new finish, it will just lie there as a barrier that prevents the new finish from getting a good bond with the wood.

Neither condition is the way to get a durable finish on a pen. However, all is not lost. If we generate enough heat when applying the friction polish, the wax will boil up to the surface where it is picked up by the applicator. Enough heat is finger burning hot.

Pure shellac is a very hard and durable surface. When it isn't, it is because of something we have added to it. And most Friction Polishes have added a lot of things to the shellac to give it a longer shelf life, make it easy to use, and produce a higher shine. The secret to using a friction polish is getting it hot enough that there is nothing but pure shellac on the wood surface. Whenever I hear of problems with a friction polish, I can show you somebody who isn't getting it hot enough and using too much of it. Either way, they are not burning off the wax and oils.

Most of us have found it easier to just use another finish.

I still like shellac because of its warm feeling when the pen is picked up. The lacquers and CA glues have a cold plastic feel until they have warmed up. They are also more slippery than a shellac in sweaty fingers. However they are not as easily damaged by toxic sweat.

The durability and wear resistance of a finish can be related to its hardness. On a scale of 0 to 10, wax is a 1, shellac is a 5, nitrocellulose lacquer is a 6, and CA glues and waterborne lacquers are near the top at about a 9+.
 
Russ said:

"Neither condition is the way to get a durable finish on a pen. However, all is not lost. If we generate enough heat when applying the friction polish, the wax will boil up to the surface where it is picked up by the applicator. Enough heat is finger burning hot."

Exactly my point, why put a shellac/wax mixture on the pen and then turn around and have to burn the wax off, if you are going to put another finish on top? I use straight shellac as a sanding sealer.
 
Freds solution is the right one. IF you are going to use another finish on the wood, use PURE shellac as a sealer, and a dewaxes shellac is even better. No wax, and no oils to cause problems.
 
I am not a finishing Expert, Guru, or Shaman...Oh wait, I am a Shaman. Have you tried dancing around your lathe, chanting and burning incense???? [;)]

IMHO, in order for friction polish to work, the wood needs to be polished, and sealed first. You can polish with Micro Mesh, brown paper bags (not kidding), steel wool, or other. Seal with sanding sealer, CA, shellac, or other.

A "slurry sanding" with any sealer is helpful, and needed in open grain woods.

Some people add more Shellac to Shellac based FP, this also seems to help.

My two cents in the collection bin.
 
Well, I guess I read this thread on the right day. While I haven't had any problems with Shellawax, I'm just never happy with the finish I get with it. I (by mistake) just started using straight shellac. I get a much better shine. I don't know if it last any longer but I haven't had any complaints yet.
 
Greg, the problem with shellac is that it dissolves in alcohol. It will dissolve in alcohol no matter how long ago the finish was applied. It is also affected by water, or any liquid that has water in it.

This is the reason why you see rings on French polished (shellac) furniture after people put their drinking glass on it. Even perspiration affects it. That is the problem with shellac based friction polishes.

This is the reason I don't use it as a finish. I use it only as a sanding sealer after my 400 grit. Then I continue to sand through the grits, and put on a finish that is water etc. resistant.
 
Originally posted by Fred in NC
<br />Greg, the problem with shellac is that it dissolves in alcohol. It will dissolve in alcohol no matter how long ago the finish was applied. It is also affected by water, or any liquid that has water in it.
Click to expand...

Ok, now this is where I always get confused in these finishing discussions. Laquer resists all of the above mentioned, yet Shellac and Laquer are both derived from Lac. I think it was Lou who first brought this up.

Now, I have not used friction polish for a while, and have never used pure shellac as a finish, but I do use Laquer quite frequently.

I'm confused again.
 
Shellac comes from the female lac bug, Laccifera lacca, that is about the size of an apple seed. That is why it is called she-lac. There is not he-lac.....

Lacquer can be a number of formulations. The original lacquer was made from nitorcellulose. It was to be a substitute for natural shellac. This is where it got the name. Nowadays the name lacquer is used for a number of newer formulations.
 
[}:)] Look what I created!

Just kidding. I can not believe the response I have gotten. This is great. I talked to Craft Supply again and they asked me to try the FP without the EEE to see if that helps. I will try it tonight and play with the piece all week end and update everyone on monday.

I have learned a lot from this discussion and will also be trying some of the others finishing scheduals.

Lou, Nice link you gave me on the way you finish. From all the raves about the TSW I want to give it a go, but where do I buy it? It also sounds like I will buy some Micro Mesh. You all just like spending my money I think.[;)]

Thanks to everyone for your input and I will continue to watch to see if anyone else has any idea's.

Ryan
 
Originally posted by Ryan
<br />[}:)]From all the raves about the TSW I want to give it a go, but where do I buy it?
Click to expand...
Trade Secret for Wood(TM) aka TSW is available from Pens of Color (www.pocwoodworking.com) or directly from me (http://tinyurl.com/5h8en).
 
Hi Ryan,
I will tell you up front that I am very new at pen turning so read at your own risk...:)
I have read almost all the posts on finshing on this site as well as the Yahoo penturner group and most members will tell you that friction polish as a stand alone finish is not the way to go. So, with that in mind I started down the list of the many ways to finish a pen. First I tried CA and 2 or 3 other ones but never could finish a pen that I would put my name on. Just this last week I got a finish to work. First I use Mylands Sanding Sealer next I cut Mylands Melamine Lacquer 50% with Lacquer thinner. I then put the pen barrel on a wire with a loop tied in the end so I can dip the barrel. I then shake the excess lacquer off the end of the barrel, let dry and turn barrel over and dip again. Let the lacquer cure and top with TSW. I now have a finish that looks very good and that will last longer than friction polish. I still have to work on a finish for oily woods.
I know there are better ways to put a finish on a pen but at my stage of the learning curve this is what works for me...
 
this may sound like a stupid question, but how do you keep the pen barrels and bushings from getting glued to the mandrel shaft when doing a CA finish? I had it happen to me last night when using CA on a spalted beach pen. Oh, yeah, what is TSW? I'm still learning the lingo. Is BLO/CA finish a "lasting" finish?
 
The thicker CA will not wick between the bushings and blanks as easily as the thinner. I do not wax my bushings and have not had a glue-up since I changed to medium or thick CA for finishing.

If sanding with MM to 12000 and then using EEE then the progression is backwards. EEE has a grit rated close to 2400 MM I think. I have good luck sanding to 600, using EEE and washing off with DNA, applying CA/BLO and sanding MM to 12000 then HUT plastic polish, and then a coat of TSW. (Did I say it right, LOU?)

I consider CA to be a most durable finish, as is lacquer, enduro, and others. Personally I do not like any of the friction polishes and I do get them hot and use very little. But...to each his own. A lot of us don't like CA or lacquer either.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by daveturns05
<br /> Is BLO/CA finish a "lasting" finish?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by daveturns05
<br />this may sound like a stupid question, but how do you keep the pen barrels and bushings from getting glued to the mandrel shaft when doing a CA finish? I had it happen to me last night when using CA on a spalted beach pen. Oh, yeah, what is TSW? I'm still learning the lingo. Is BLO/CA finish a "lasting" finish?
Click to expand...
I glue the bushings to my blnaks quite often and usually intentionally to kept from staing the blanks whit the residue from the bushings.
If you are glueing your bushings to the mandrel then the ends of the blanks are not being milled proberly.
There shouldn't be any gaps between the ends of teh blanks and the bushings.
When I turn a custome center band in a modified slim line or any other pen, After turning the blanks past thte dia of the pen mill. I Stop and put a piece of wax paper on the mandrel on either side of teh C.B..
I continue to turn and turn the paper down also.
The stops(usually the C.B.from sticking to the blanks.
If I decide I want the C.B. to be one part of the pen or the other I leave the wax paper off that side.
 
John, I am not able to find any information that supports the claim that Kiwi uses the wax from shellac as an ingredient in their shoe polish. Bee's wax and carnauba are the only ingredients that I found references to.

Carnauba:
1. A Brazilian palm tree (Copernicia prunifera) having densely waxy, fan-shaped leaves and toothed leafstalks.
2. A hard wax obtained from the leaves of this plant and used especially in polishes and floor waxes. Also called carnauba wax.

If anyone has any references I would like to hear. Thanks!
 
Lou,
So far I like it. Easy to apply and buff. I really am hoping it will keep the ebonite from oxidizing from the UV light. Time will tell on that one. Thanks for developing it for us. What's that odor? Smells like PR curing.. :-) I may need your mailing address soon.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />
Originally posted by its_virgil
<br />then a coat of TSW. (Did I say it right, LOU?)
Click to expand...
Perfectly, Don! BTW, now that you've been using it for a while, how do you like it?
Click to expand...
 
Lac Wax is easilly removed from shellac because it is insoluble in alcohol. By itself, it is very little different from Beeswax, about the same color, and just as soft.

Like most manufacturers of wax proucts, Kiwi will not tell us what they use, other than a blend of waxes. Lac Wax by itself would be too soft to use. Carnauba by itself is a hard and brittle wax, so softer waxes are blended with it to make a useful wax product. One of the softer waxes in the shoe polish could be lac wax, but it could just as easilly be Beeswax or Paraffin to accomplish the same thing, or they could be using all three.

The following article is not the final aythority on waxes, but it will probably tell you more than you want to know about using "The Original Wood Finish".

http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/036.html
 
I first used Hut crystal FP, I would have it would come off and be tackie.[V]

Then I used Shellawax it was ok

Then I was told to try this

Sand 220, 320 Thin CA, Tripple EEE, Then Maylands FP [:)][:)] AND THEN SOME TIME I THEN PUT A SMALL AMOUNT OF REN - WAX ON This is all done on the lathe.[^][^]
 
All,

Thank you all for your input. I did some testing Thursday-Sunday and here is what I found.

I took 2 scrap wood blanks, drilled them, put in a brass tube with no glue, mounted them and turned them round. I then sectioned them off with a parting tool so I had a division line. I then used different finishes on each segment. I then proceeded to abuse these 2 pieces by rolling them on my desk, holding them in my sweaty hands for hours. I even put them in my pocket with my keys while I walked around. Below are the results.

1) Friction Polish alone held up for most of 1 day then started to loose it's shine.

2) Deft Lacquer wiped on with a paper towel for 4 coats yielded better results in the fingernail test, but lost its shine hours before the friction polish.

3) Friction Polish with 4 paper towel wiped on coats of Deft gave even better results in the fingernail test and still had shine to it 2 days later.

4) The Deft Lacquer dip gave the best protection and shine as expected, but even after shaking off the excess I still ended up with some thick spots on the end of the barrel. These buffed out pretty good and were no longer noticeable by feel, but upon close inspection you could see that it was thicker at the very end of the barrel.

5 Friction Polish with a wax top coat. I am testing this one today as I only finished it this morning. I expect it to fall somewhere in the middle.

6) A Poly dip gave a nice shine when dipped and I expect it to give good durability, however after 24 hours it was still tacky and left a finger print when I took it off my wire. I therefore will not use this finish. It took to long to dry.

I did not try a CA finish. I know it may give great results, but as a personal choice I more than likely will not use this finish.

After all this experimenting I think the finish I will use is laid out below. I have yet to test it however.

1) Sand through all grits.
2) Add a coat of friction polish.
3) Dip in a 50% thinned Lacquer.
4) Top with Ran Wax or TSW.

Let me know if anyone has tried this and how it worked out for you.

Thanks again to everyone for all your input and help.

Ryan
 
That's almost exactly my preferred method, Ryan. You may want to wipe on your lacquer instead of dipping. You can put on a very thin coat that way. It also will dry faster. I also do more than one coat, using MM6000 between coats. You can get a fairly quick build-up. Also, before you top with Renaissance Wax or Trade Secret for Wood(TM), level the surface with MM12000. It helps either topcoat adhere better. For the most part, my finished pens look good--they look even better than my pictures (which I still find lacking).
 
Quote:

After all this experimenting I think the finish I will use is laid out below. I have yet to test it however.

1) Sand through all grits.
2) Add a coat of friction polish.
3) Dip in a 50% thinned Lacquer.
4) Top with Ran Wax or TSW.

Let me know if anyone has tried this and how it worked out for you.

Thanks again to everyone for all your input and help."

Ryan

I would not use the friction polish prior to lacquer...I would use a sanding sealer compatible with the lacquer instead. Just my $0.02.
 
Hi Ryan!
I didn't even see this thread until just now - and I thought I was doing so well checking through all the posts![;)] I have actually had similar problems with the Friction Polish, but as was discussed in the other replies- it's about how you use it and with what. I don't use any Friction Polish anymore. I, personally, am a huge fan of Master's Magic Spray Lacquer, which is available in satin or gloss. I love the stuff! I use it on pens all the time and, once you get the hang of it, it coats totally evenly, provides a nice thick coat, shines like glass and lasts wonderfully. I even put a pen through the washing machine once (on accident) that was finished with Masters and it came out looking terrific still. I just make a quick pass along the length of the pen (with the lathe off) and then rotate it a bit, spray, rotate, etc. until I've sprayed the whole thing. Then I hand turn the lathe for a few minutes until it dries and voila! I've been totally happy with it everytime. It sounds like you've really tried a lot of things since posting the original message so I thought I'd add one easy finish to the mix. Good Luck!
 
1) Sand through all grits.
2) Add a coat of friction polish.
3) Dip in a 50% thinned Lacquer.
4) Top with Ran Wax or TSW.
Click to expand...

I use this except on #2. I use CA to seal instead of a friction polish. CA prevents the lacquer from soaking in giving a nearly perfect finish everytime (especially with the 50% thinned). Just remember to nearly sand off the CA first (use a very thin CA so most of it will soak into the wood).

As Gary said.. use a sealer before the lacquer...that is what CA is.
 
CA glue is the better sealer because it seals and hardens the wood and leaves nothing on the surface to contaminate the lacquer.

Using a friction polish to seal the wood will leave some wax or oil behind that will be absorbed by the lacquer, unless enough heat is generated to boil them off. These oils and waxes will act as plasticisers in the lacquer, and it will be softer than it would have been without them.

Using a sanding sealer also leaves behind the steric acid that is used to lubricate the sanding. Unless this sealer is sanded all the way back to bare wood, any sterate remaining on the surface will also act as a placticizer in the lacquer.

You can substitute shellac for lacquer in both of the above conditions. Shellac will usually be a harder finish when it is used over CA glue, than over a sanding sealer or used as a friction polish. Unless ebough heat is generated to boil off all of the oils and contaminates in the friction polish, they will be absorbed into the finish and act as a plasticizer.
 
Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />Using a sanding sealer also leaves behind the steric acid that is used to lubricate the sanding. Unless this sealer is sanded all the way back to bare wood, any sterate remaining on the surface will also act as a placticizer in the lacquer.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this point. I would certainly trust and use the sealer thats manufactured and recommended by the manufacturer of the lacquer.
 
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SOmething I am not seeing here with the lacquer finishes... lacquer needs a couple of day to completely cure and harden properly.... if you are not letting the lacquer cure, it will not hold up to the tests that you are doing...
I use lacquer almost exclusively on my scroll saw projects and have learned to let it cure for about a week before I rub it out to a glass like finish...
Poly is in the same boat... it also needs time to properly cure and harden.. about the same time as lacquer...
This is probably why the fingernail test failed on the lacquer finished pen... it had not cured completely...
 
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