A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.....

[RogerGarrett]

I know there has been quite a bit of discussion in the past regarding ordering from some pen companies and not receiving merchandise - I've followed all of those threads as well as I can - primarily because I wanted to avoid delays and problems.

This post today is meant to present information.

I called CSUSA on Friday, July 14. I spent a great deal of time with the sales lady getting information, asking questions, asking for availability of products vs. backorders, etc., and then I placed and nearly $500 order. I was told nothing was backordered and that all kits, bushings, materials, and tools that were on my order would be sent the following Monday (July 17) or Tuesday.

As of today, I have received nothing. So, I called to ask if the order had been shipped. The answer was no. The lady who spoke to me was Michelle - I believe the very same girl who took my order. She apologized but explained that the items had not been received by them yet and that they were held up in customs 45 miles away. She could ship all but five pen kits and several bushing sets - but that those latter items would not be shipped until they received them. At first she told me she expected everything in within a week and a half, then she told me that it could be three weeks. She finally told me that she couldn't give me a date - and that I was welcome to cancel next week or the week after if I needed to order from a different source.

Folks - I was very specific in my questions prior to ordering. I explained that I didn't mind waiting until the last week of July to receive the kits, but that I didn't want to wait indefinitely for products that they assurred me would be in. The young lady who took the order was very clear on this issue. [B)]

Michelle was very pleasant, but she explained that they had no way of knowing that customs would take so long. When I asked her why CSUSA didn't call me to let me know of the delay, she explained that this was something that they should consider doing in the person - and she agreed with me [:0] However, given the coversations I have viewed over the past several months regarding the very same concerns voiced with CSUSA, I wonder why they haven't actually implemented some kind of calling process - or why they didn't at least send what they had in stock with an invoice showing the backorder - especially given her absolute assurance that all products would be shipped as promised. I can't explain why they would hold onto 90% of the order when they know the entire order can't be filled for as much as three or four more weeks.

Anyway - I thought I would share. I can do without the kits for awhile - but I can't do without the bushings. I've been told to use bushings that are sold by the same place as the kits - so I'm stuck. Good thing I have plenty of stuff to do and a long time prior to having to have these pens ready.

Again - this is a FYI type of posting. I'm sure that, once the product arrives, it will be very good, high quality kits and materials. My purpose here is to share with those people who may have a deadline to know that it might not be shipped when promised if it isn't actually in the building. If you have to get kits immediately - and if they don't have them in stock but expect them "for sure - 100% - we'll call you if there is any trouble," better to look at the place that actually has them in stock. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush!!

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett

 

[Penmonkey]

Calm down, there there. Michelle is a good girl, I've talked to her a thousand times. CSUSA is good.

Go jump in a lake.

 

[alamocdc]

Now now, Travis. Roger was just expressing his frustration at something he was told that turned out not to be the case. I don't blame him for being upset under the circumstances. And I didn't hear him slamming Michelle or anyone else. Just that he was assured of one thing and experienced another.

 

[Dario]

Roger,

I applaude you for taking this in a very calm manner. I will be upset too especially given your situation that you cleared things prior to putting your order in.

I can't relate though since most promises made to me by CSUSA were delivered in timely manner and as promised.

Seems like inventory control is CSUSA's Achilles heel...hope they can reinforce/fix it soon.

 

[Rifleman1776]

If there is a justified criticizm in there, I believe CS should have shipped what they could then notified the customer of unfortunate, and unavoidable, delays. What (probably) happened is that businesses today consider items enroute as 'in stock' to cut down on expense of having stuff sit on shelves. To say something is in stock when it is actually on a slow boat from China is unfair to the customer.

 

[RogerGarrett]

Originally posted by Penmonky
<br />Go jump in a lake.

I'm going to wait a few days - it is not quite up to 90 degrees here yet. [}][]

BTW - I'm calm - just a bit surprised at their promise when I took so much time to have them be sure to begin with.

Best,
Roger Garrett

 

[JimGo]

Roger,
If it's any consolation, the same thing happened to me with the group buy (and that was an almost $10,000 order). I think Frank is right; in this case, CSUSA appears to have assumed that their most recent shipment of pen kits from overseas would be treated just like the hundreds of other shipments they've received, and told both you and me that the kits would be available for shipping soon. Unfortunately, in this case, ICE decided to hold this particular shipment for further review. I'd be willing to bet CSUSA is every bit as frustrated by this as you are; imagine, they not only have you and your customers who are anxious for these kits, but also me, all of our people in the group buy, and all of our collective customers as well. Then there are all the other people...

Oh, I do want to mention that I agree with Travis, too...Michele has been very helpful! At this point, the poor girl knows me by name, and I think even by voice, yet she still suffers through the phone calls with me with a very pleasant attitude and has always been very helpful.

 

[RogerGarrett]

Originally posted by JimGo
<br />Oh, I do want to mention that I agree with Travis, too...Michele has been very helpful! At this point, the poor girl knows me by name, and I think even by voice, yet she still suffers through the phone calls with me with a very pleasant attitude and has always been very helpful.

Michelle was very pleasant - and she apologized. It is possible that she was not the person who took the order.

Good to have more information about your group buy - I wonder why they just don't contact people when there is a problem? I would be understanding.............[]

Best,
Roger

 

[wdcav1952]

Roger,

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, and know that can be frustrating. However, I did receive a call from CSUSA when something I ordered online was back-ordered, which I really appreciated.

If you do decide to jump in the lake and see Travis, please hold his head under until he learns better manners. [][}][]

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by JimGo
<br />Roger,
If it's any consolation, the same thing happened to me with the group buy (and that was an almost $10,000 order).

Welcome to the mad world of "Group Buy" LOL []

It is nice to see IAP members like you willing to take the ball and run with it. [^]

 

[alamocdc]

Originally posted by JimGo
<br />If it's any consolation, the same thing happened to me with the group buy (and that was an almost $10,000 order).

First, let me say that I agree with Dario, Jim! Thank you and all others that take this sort of venture on for our behalf.

Secondly, it's almost scary when I think about the value of that order... because at one point over 10% of it was MINE![:0][]

 

[mick]

I don't know about the rest of you but as best I recall every time CSUSA has been out of something or it was on backorder they have called me and asked if I wanted what they hand on hand and let them shgip the rest when it came in. I've like anyone else, I hate not getting what I order but when they take the time to call and let me know it goes a long way in easing that frustration.

 

[RogerGarrett]

I hate not getting what I order but when they take the time to call and let me know it goes a long way in easing that frustration.

And you know what? It really would have made a difference![]

Best,
Roger Garrett

 

[MesquiteMan]

They really need to have something on their website showing the stock status. I placed my first pen kit order from them 3 or more weeks ago. I had had it with Barons and decided to try the Jr. Gents. I ordered a number of Jr. Gent kits and a set of bushings as well as some other items. Got my pen kits but no bushings. They did call and tell me the bushings were backordered and would be shipped the next week. 2 weeks later and I still do not have my bushings. I have money tied up in pen kits that I can not even use due to backordered bushings that were supposed to ship the next week.

I placed a second order the following week for some other itmes and got a call that some of these items were also backordered! What is up with CSUSA? Did they recently have to do inventory and let it run low to make it easier or something?

Not real impressed with my first 2 pen related orders so far. Did I mention that I still do not have my bushings??

 

[JimGo]

Originally posted by MesquiteMan
<br />They really need to have something on their website showing the stock status.

IIRC, Nils said that this feature is coming soon.

Originally posted by MesquiteMan
<br />...They did call and tell me the bushings were backordered and would be shipped the next week. 2 weeks later and I still do not have my bushings. I have money tied up in pen kits that I can not even use due to backordered bushings that were supposed to ship the next week.

I ordered some other kits when I placed the group buy order, and those kits are on backorder, too. I have a feeling (completely unsubstantiated SWAG) that CSUSA consolidates its shipping costs and sends all the kits, bushings, etc. over in one container aboard a ship. It is this container that has been, for lack of the appropriate term, "impounded" and is awaiting customs clearance. So, rather than thinking of the CSUSA order as a few boxes that can be delivered by UPS, imagine that it's an entire semi full of stuff, and that semi has been pulled off the highway. Unfortunately, CSUSA is at the mercy of ICE.

 

[low_48]

I think we better get used to this mode of business guys. As more and more products are made in the Far East, approximately all our stuff, that's just the way it's going to be. Just wait till all the Chinese start driving cars instead of bicycles and scooters. We'll then hear the same story about gas. "It's on backorder and should be here any day", "are you in a hurry to get to WalMart or something?"[}][}][}]

 

[Daniel]

I've noticed for a long time that Craaft Supplies estimated date for arrival on items gets set back more often than not. I Must ahve developed the thinking that they really don't know when the Items will really arrive and that they can't know what they don't know. seems I've had something back ordered every time I've placed an order this year as well. all part of the program. I list on my web site that it will taek as much as 8 weeks to complete a pen. I was also advised not to set the time for that long. I'm glad now I didn't change it. all part of hand made products.
all in all I think CSUSA has the best service of anyone, a bit suprised that they woudl tell you they had items in stock that they really didn't. I've always gotten a phone call same day telling me what will not be shipped the first round. I am waiting for some pen kits myself right now. I think today was the day they thought they would get them. must be on the same boat your kits are on.

 

[DocStram]

I appreciate Roger taking the time to report on his recent experience with CSUSA. Furthermore, he went way out of his way to present the details in a logical and objective fashion. I doubt if I would have been as patient and understanding if I was in his situation.

I guess I'm old fashioned, but when I speak in person with a retailer I take them for their word. If I call in an order and the person on the other end of the phone tells me that things will be shipped by a certain day, then I expect them to be shipped by that date. Where I come from, your word is your bond.

I know Michelle is polite and that Nils is a fine person. But the fact of the matter is that CSUSA has dropped the ball way more times than any of us care to admit. I understand that they face circumstances beyond their control (a problem with customs .... or their supplier ... or an unexpectedly large group buy) but I find it all just a little too frustrating. Just imagine, Roger speaks with CSUSA on a Friday, they tell him his order will be shipped on Monday or Tuesday, and then he finds out a week later that they still don't have everything he ordered. All they had to do was tell him that when he first called.

I know that CSUSA has a huge following here ... and then I will probably be kicked around for this post .... but I think y'all have been way too understanding when it comes to dealing with CSUSA.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Rifleman1776]

DocStram said, "I guess I'm old fashioned, but when I speak in person with a retailer I take them for their word. If I call in an order and the person on the other end of the phone tells me that things will be shipped by a certain day, then I expect them to be shipped by that date. Where I come from, your word is your bond."

We should not dump on one company. The CS representative gave the best information available at the time. If she was told 'in stock' when, in fact, the merchandise was in a container impounded by customs somewhere, that is not her fault. And the circumstances changed from what management even calculated. I have owned stores and depended on deliveries and know, first hand, 'stuff' happens that is out of control of the store owner. We are talking pen kits here, folks, not life saving medicine. What is the great urgency?

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />We are talking pen kits here, folks, not life saving medicine. What is the great urgency?

Frank,

Aren't those statements contradicting? [?][}]

For a turner you surprised me...you know how it is when you want/need to turn pens and you don't have a kit? [}][][] LOL

 

[JimGo]

Originally posted by DocStram
I know that CSUSA has a huge following here ... and then I will probably be kicked around for this post .... but I think y'all have been way too understanding when it comes to dealing with CSUSA.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

I don't think any of us were saying that Roger's comments were unwarranted. I can certainly understand his frustration! My comments were intended to help him appreciate that he's not alone in this, and that, in this case, it really does seem to be something that is outside of CSUSA's direct control. Had it been something different, like manufacturing flaws, customer service problems, CSUSA sitting on in-stock products for weeks before shipping (and after payment), lost orders, etc., then I think Roger would have had even more grounds for complaining, and I think a lot of us would have rallied to his side.

 

[Penmonkey]

Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Roger,
If you do decide to jump in the lake and see Travis, please hold his head under until he learns better manners. [][}][]

[xx(][xx(]

 

[rpasto92]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />We should not dump on one company. The CS representative gave the best information available at the time. If she was told 'in stock' when, in fact, the merchandise was in a container impounded by customs somewhere, that is not her fault. And the circumstances changed from what management even calculated. I have owned stores and depended on deliveries and know, first hand, 'stuff' happens that is out of control of the store owner. We are talking pen kits here, folks, not life saving medicine. What is the great urgency?

I for one don't think this post has anything to do with urgency...it has to do with honesty, corporate honestly, not Nils' or Michelle's. Also, nobody is dumping on Nils or Michelle but we surely can dump on the company. The issue is, if I ask CSU (regardless of who I'm asking) is pen kit XYZ IN STOCK and they say yes, well there should be zero chance that my order cannot be filled unless the warehouse burns down or the USPS goes on strike. This is company policy to promise something that is not there and that's the problem. If the POLICY was to say, "we have a shipment of those pens due in tonight and pending that your order will be filled" then this post would never have existed.

 

[arioux]

Hi,

The same topics was discuss few mounths ago here and i've seen many comments about them out of stock since then.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14118&SearchTerms=csu

This is the CSU way of doing business, we like it or not and i don't think they really want to do a dam about it (i will probably be slashed for that one so read along before ripping my head). The staff is great, their kits are the best around, no one will ever argue with that and they know it. Why do you think they ended their distributor program ? You need stock to supply them and the distributor won't blame it on the boat or custom, the'll blame the manufacturer. I just hope that somewhere someone will come up with high end kit like them at probably a lower cost, because managing back order has a cost , a high cost, and that will catch up with them sometime.

Alfred

 

[tcastel]

As someone that works for a company that imports equipment from Asia and Europe I have can understand both sides of this problem. Since 9/11 importing from overseas has become a tremendous nightmare. Getting things through Customs that used to take a few days to a week now takes a week to a month. Customs has always had a policy of spot checking so many containers from each ship arriving at a port. When they do this that container is brought to a special area at the port and opened. If the material is such that the inspectors can get into the container and see everything in thats fine. If not the container is completely unloaded to check the contents. We bring in somewhere between 8-15 containers a week and the number of containers being spot checked hes at least tripled since 9/11. This makes it a complete nighmare because once the container is picked you have no idea how long they will hold it and they wil not tell you how long you can expect to wait. We've had containers of sold equipment held up for 3-4 weeks. This may or may not have been the case on the problems spoken about here but I know we have had to eat crow a few times because containers we knew were at the peirs and should be delived to us in a day or so have gone absent for extended periods of time. It could have been that they expected the container to be cleared so they said the items would be in and ready to ship (which is a little risky). It might have been better to do what we now do and tell the customers that the items are in customs and we hope to have them in the next few days barring any problems with Customs.
Sorry to be so long winded but I can see the problems from both ends.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Originally posted by rpasto92
<br />

The issue is, if I ask CSU (regardless of who I'm asking) is pen kit XYZ IN STOCK and they say yes, well there should be zero chance that my order cannot be filled unless the warehouse burns down or the USPS goes on strike.

Ever hear of inventory discrepancy? My computer tells me I have plenty of stock, but when I physically go to retrieve it,the shelf is empty. This is part of the 'real world'IMO.

-Peter-

 

[DocStram]

Nope, I've never heard of "inventory discrepancy". Nor do I care.

However, I have heard of "integrity". And what that means is this, if I speak with a representative of your company on the phone and they assure me that items X, Y, and Z are in stock and will be shipped the next working day .... then that doesn't mean in 10 days or 14 days or whatever.

It's as simple as this .... you say, "No Doc, we do not have them in stock at the present time. But, we expect them to arrive in 10 days". Then I either say "Yes, place the order" or "No, thank you".

This problem has been discussed here before. Numerous times. But, it's not going to get better until either CSUSA has competition for the same high quality pen kits ..... or they revise their business model. Again, it's not about Michelle ... and it's not about Nils. It's about CSUSA's business model.

 

[JimGo]

Originally posted by wood-of-1kind
Ever hear of inventory discrepancy? My computer tells me I have plenty of stock, but when I physically go to retrieve it,the shelf is empty.

WAIT!!! Do you work for Ikea? LOL I love their stuff; it's well made (for the price), looks decent, and very well engineered. But I HATE shopping there - their computers are almost ALWAYS wrong about the number of items in stock! We were trying to find an accessory shelf for our entertainment center, and went to four different Ikeas, each of which said that they had at least three of the shelves in stock. None of them actually had any, either in stock or in their warehouse. Even worse, we kept checking the web site to see when the new stuff hit the store, and they never "zeroed out" the inventory, even after we raised a big fuss!

Hopefully CSUSA's pending upgrade to its inventory and ordering system will render this entire thread moot, and we'll all look back on it and laugh.

 

[53Jim]

Originally posted by JimGo
I have a feeling (completely unsubstantiated SWAG) that CSUSA consolidates its shipping costs and sends all the kits, bushings, etc. over in one container aboard a ship. It is this container that has been, for lack of the appropriate term, "impounded" and is awaiting customs clearance.

I hate to add gasoline to this fire, BUT, did you know that on average, 10,000 containers fall overboard every year???

Just something else to think about.

 

[baldysm]

My take on this whole thing:
CSUSA has the best customer service out there. Mistakes do happen. Inventory discrepancies do happen - thats where what the computer says you have on hand is different from what you physically have.

If you get 10,000 kits, all exactly the same in, do you get exactly 10,000 kits? Maybe. More likely you get 9975, or 10,023 or something close to 10,000. I wouldnt pay some one $25+ an hour (including wages, insurance, taxes, benefits, etc) to count 10,000 kits to ensure I got exactly 10,000 kits worth $10 a piece. It doesnt make economic sense.

Awhile ago, there was a problem with the problem with jr gentlemans kits v2 threads. CSUSA backed up thier product.

I am buying a larger and larger percentage of the kits I make from CSUSA. I had a problem with a centerband and a Churchill clip from Berea (via BB at AS). I placed an order with Berea, and asked that I get replacements for the 2 parts I have a problem with. I'm getting challenged on the validity of my claim. I don't even care if I pay for the parts (maybe $1.50 between them), it's cheaper than buying another kit for spare parts to finish these 2 pens. I have NEVER been challenged by CSUSA, I've always been trusted.

Before I send an email about a problem with a kit, I have to have experienced the problem a few times. Whenever I have sent an email explaining a problem with a kit, I have always gotten a response from CSUSA that says my voice has been heard, even if nothing is going to change. With Berea, I've always gotten essentially a 'your wrong, that's not a problem' response.

For me, which company I buy from comes down to 3 things - quality, price, and customer service, in that order with the understanding that the 3 are related.

CSUSA has always seemed to listen to suggestions and complaints, and try to improve. They back up thier products and try to make things right if there is a problem.

I'm not at all saying that Berea has bad service, they have good service in my experience.

 

[RogerGarrett]

Originally posted by tcastel
<br />It might have been better to do what we now do and tell the customers that the items are in customs and we hope to have them in the next few days barring any problems with Customs.
Sorry to be so long winded but I can see the problems from both ends.

I think you are correct about this. I've been reading the threads since April of this year, and I find that CSUSA seemed to understand that the customs checks and other delays would cause problems with items that were not in-stock. I do not have an explanation for why, if they have experienced this over a period of several months, they do not inform the customer in an appropriate way. I would have found substitute kits/bushings for the specific fountain and rollerball kits that are held up now at other places - and would be turning now instead of treading water. Instead, as a result of bushings being unavailable, I am stopped cold. Two ideas come to mind:

1. they didn't want to lose the business so they ignored the issue and hoped I would call and pacify me. In my opinions - this is an unacceptable form of business practice. Honesty is the best approach.

2. they hoped the situation was not as bad as they knew it was. In other words, they were being optimistic (a good thing).

Either way - the consumer needs to be better informed. The approach that they currently employ is, in my opinion, not conducive towards repeat business - which is so very important in business today.

But - I will know more in weeks and months - so I will say here - I don't know for sure and hope that CSUSA will make it right.

Best,
Roger Garrett

 

[wayneis]

Back orders with CSUSA is not an unusual problem, what is unusual in this case is that Roger did not recieve a phone call. From my experence and many people whome that I have talked to have always recieved a phone call that day or the next when they have a problem. I would not want the job of ordering and stocking kits for a company like CSUSA, pen turners come and go every day. I've seen so many people who tried pen turning and loved it but when they found that it was difficult to build a solid customer base a lot of them gave it up and found something else to spend their money on. I would have to guess that there are a whole lot more problems involved in running a business like CSUSA than many of us could ever dream of in a million years. I'll stick to turning a few pens occasionally and leave the kit selling to them.

Wayne

 

[DocStram]

When the Unusual becomes Usual

Isn't it a sad state of affairs when the "unusual" problem of backordering becomes "usual"? The majority of IAP members agree that CSUSA has high quality kits and that Nils, Michelle, et al are kind, caring, and so on and so forth. Yet, here we are, accepting unacceptable business practices because it's the "usual, unusual" way of doing business.
Sometimes I'm either very profound or very confused.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

Originally posted by DocStram
<br />When the Unusual becomes Usual
Sometimes I'm either very profound or very confused.

Too much for my 'simple' mind to absorb[]Good one professore.

-Peter-[]

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by DocStram
<br />When the Unusual becomes Usual

<b>Isn't it a sad state of affairs when the "unusual" problem of backordering becomes "usual"?</b> The majority of IAP members agree that CSUSA has high quality kits and that Nils, Michelle, et al are kind, caring, and so on and so forth. Yet, here we are, accepting unacceptable business practices because it's the "usual, unusual" way of doing business.
Sometimes I'm either very profound or very confused.

We were trained well LOL

After a while you do get de-sensitized [}]...that is why new and fresh people/ideas are always welcome [][]

 

[Pipes]

Originally posted by mick
<br />I don't know about the rest of you but as best I recall every time CSUSA has been out of something or it was on backorder they have called me and asked if I wanted what they hand on hand and let them shgip the rest when it came in. I've like anyone else, I hate not getting what I order but when they take the time to call and let me know it goes a long way in easing that frustration.

They have done the same with me ! I ordered a couple a kits I never make this morning ! AND I caalled to be sure they had them ! It is a time sensitive order going to Japan ! They said they had them I hope NOW the young lady was right ! But they have been good about calling me on past orders when somthing is outa stock ! ON a E mailed order !! I buy mostly Berea kits and Blanks acrylics and would BUY more from CSUSA but there a tad rich for my blood on acrylic blanks ..BUT they do have a few I really like and am willing to bite the bullet and pay for those ! CSUSA has always done me right I hate to here of this IMO serious Cust Service problem ! I won't BUY my Berea kits direct from Berea because they IMO now don't seem to be able to get a order right even with a writen list ! BUT BB at AZ can do it everytime with Bereas products ! I sent 2 BAD transmisions BACK to Berea a month ago and They as of today have done nothing ! But I got so much stupid hassel over a few tubes that were WRONG in the kits I bought AT Berea a 600.00 order a few months ago ..I won't even bother to caLLEM ABOUT THE 2 TRANSMISIONS ! NOT WORTH THE CRAPOLA specialy if it took the time it took on the lousy tubes &gt;&gt;&gt;Thats the day I switched to BB at AZ for Bera kits and acrylics blanks ... and woodturningz at times IF I want a PSI product ... So I guess we all got a bone to pick with some of the the kit MFG's and suppliers Would I buy from Berea direct again yes for small orders and somthing I need fast there close to me and to get back to this thread strange they didn't call they alwasy have called me on things like this at CSUSA ..rant over [:I]





http://affordablepipes.com/

 

[huntersilver]

From what I have experienced, they ship me what they have and they
backorder, but I have always had a call to tell me that was the case.
Always had good luck with them!

 

[woodbutcher]

A Bush in the man is worth two in the can.[][)]
Jim

 

[alamocdc]

Or... A herd in the band is worth boo in the tush![)]

 

[woodwish]

Originally posted by 53Jim
<br />

Originally posted by JimGo
I hate to add gasoline to this fire, BUT, did you know that on average, 10,000 containers fall overboard every year???

I really have nothing to add to this thread about CSUSA. I always place order on line to save time for me, they always call the next day to let me know what they don't have. I also totally understand the frustration that so many of complain about, and agree with you.

But the part that I am curious about is the quote above. I do know in bad storms some must be occasionally lost, maybe a dozen a year or something but 10,000? At that rate soon we can walk to China just jumping from container to container, that Pacific has got to be filling up!

Edit- after posting the above I "googled" the topic of lost containers. Found a National Geographic article that says 10,000 lost overboard as Jim quoted, but an article from some shipping law firm says less than 300 containers in an average year. This is one heck of a difference! Most are lost when major storms cause a ship to roll, the shifting weight crushes bottom containers and the one above fall overboard. 300 or 10,000 really is a difference, but either way it's a lot more than I thought there would be. Thanks 53Jim for bringing that point up!