A $250,000.00 pen

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DocStram

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Chisel, et. al. .... if you'll check out your local dictionary, or dictionary.com, you will read that a craftsman is an artist. Thus, "craftsman" and "artist" are synonymns.

Actually, people like Ron Mc, eagle and those IAP members on the cutting edge are Master Craftsmen. I like to think of them as "artisans". As for Bruce, with the advent of technology, I think of him as falling within the ever expanding realm of artisans that integrate technology within their designs.

Frankly, it's all a question of semantics. Oh yeah, as for penturners like me ... I know my station in life ... I'm a journeyman ... or an apprentice, at best.
 
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chitswood

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If I could make pens that sold for a quarter of a million dollars, I don't think I would care how they are being made...[:D]

Btboone, are you saying you can make another one of those flame pens, even one for me?
 

chisel

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Originally posted by DocStram
<br />Chisel, et. al. .... if you'll check out your local dictionary, or dictionary.com, you will read that a craftsman is an artist. Thus, "craftsman" and "artist" are synonymns.

Actually, people like Ron Mc, eagle and those IAP members on the cutting edge are Master Craftsmen. I like to think of them as "artisans". As for Bruce, with the advent of technology, I think of him as falling within the ever expanding realm of artisans that integrate technology within their designs.

Frankly, it's all a question of semantics. Oh yeah, as for penturners like me ... I know my station in life ... I'm a journeyman ... or an apprentice, at best.

<b>My local dictionary was similar to a few other definitions I found through Google...</b>

crafts·man [kráftsm#601;n]
(plural crafts·men [kráftsm#601;n])
n
1. somebody who makes things by hand: somebody who makes decorative or practical objects skillfully by hand
2. skillful person: somebody who does something with great skill and expertise



<b>And</b>

art·ist

art·ist [#63471;rtist]
(plural art·ists)
n
1. creator of art: somebody who creates art, especially paintings, drawings, or sculptures
2. skilled person: somebody who does something with great skill and creativity
an artist with a basketball

3. performer: a member of the performing arts
a well-known recording artist

4. cunning person: somebody who is very good at doing something, especially something involving cunning or deceit (slang)
a ripoff artist



[Late 16th century. Via French artiste from Italian artista , from arte “art†(see art1).]






<b>I do agree that this is a matter of splitting hairs though. </b>
 

btboone

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&gt;Btboone, are you saying you can make another one of those flame pens, even one for me?

Yup. Even a left hand version in the new Blue Hawaii acrylic I found.
 

cozee

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Originally posted by btboone
<br />&gt;Btboone, are you saying you can make another one of those flame pens, even one for me?

Yup. Even a left hand version in the new Blue Hawaii acrylic I found.

Alright!! Power to south paws!!!

I do have to laugh though. Back some 25 years ago when I first started airbrushing, most "artists" I knew looked down on my airbrush. It wasn't considered art, for the most part thanks to Playboy. However, over time and airbrush artists who kept to thier art, today it is fully recognized as art and the airbrush itselff as mush as an extension of the artist as a painter's brush. Hang in there Boone! After time, what you do will be welcomed as art!!
 

alamocdc

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Tell me about it, Greg! And they get top dollar too. The airbrush work I want on my Harley will cost me about 5 times more than just getting a nice looking three tome fade.
 

btboone

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&gt;Hang in there Boone! After time, what you do will be welcomed as art!!

As in the Museum of Modern Art?
http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/1995/mutantmaterials/metals.html
 

Skye

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Originally posted by johncrane
<br />Money means jack too some people. But if you could sell a pen for $250.000 you sure would have the last laugh all the way to the bank.[:D]

Yeah, if I could grab a granite rock out of my driveway, sell it to some sucker for a quarter mill, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That doesn’t, however, mean there was anything special about my rock. It doesn’t mean I'm a pro at picking out rocks. It doesn’t mean everyone around me should respect my rock. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything about me <b>or</b> the rock. It may just mean that someone wants everyone to know they have money falling out of their orifices and they can blow that kind of money.
 

DocStram

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Originally posted by jeff
<br />This topic clearly illustrates why the Critiques Forum is not coming back.

Jeff, I'm not trying to be a smart-a** but I'm not certain I understand what you mean by the Critiques Forum not coming back.
 

JimGo

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Originally posted by DocStram
<br />
Originally posted by jeff
<br />This topic clearly illustrates why the Critiques Forum is not coming back.

Jeff, I'm not trying to be a smart-a** but I'm not certain I understand what you mean by the Critiques Forum not coming back.
Scroll down to the bottom of the forums list, and you'll see that there are two "closed" forums, one for a charity auction, and one for critiques.

BTW, I laughed pretty hard when I read your comment Jeff!
 

jeff

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That forum was supposed to be out of public view. It is now.

Al, regarding your question... this topic clearly illustrates the fact that nobody agrees on any issues of art and craftsmanship, and the process of disagreeing gets nasty.

I was just a few clicks away from creating a new forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where critiques would be encouraged, but it would be the same old thing as the old critiques forum. Two people would offer different opinions, then the arguing starts, the peanut gallery chimes in, and it all goes to hell. It's typical of the faceless, nameless, impersonal nature of the internet, which encourages much worse behavior and much more disrespect than would ever happen in person.
 

rtjw

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Originally posted by jeff
<br />This topic clearly illustrates why the Critiques Forum is not coming back.

Now thats funny, I dont care who you are.

Of course, it is the only time I have seen eagle give up on an argument!
 

baldysm

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It's typical of the faceless, nameless, impersonal nature of the internet, which encourages much worse behavior and much more disrespect than would ever happen in person.
Jeff obviously is busy with the IAP forum and has missed both the political advertising and the face to face debates concerned the upcoming elections. :)
 

Skye

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Originally posted by jeff
I was just a few clicks away from creating a new forum called "The Penturners Laboratory" where critiques would be encouraged, but it would be the same old thing as the old critiques forum. Two people would offer different opinions, then the arguing starts, the peanut gallery chimes in, and it all goes to hell.

The good thing about that is that you can say something other than an 'attaboy' without someone getting their feeling hurt. I think everyone gets tired of the one line, took 3 seconds to type "Nice pen." replies. Also, the old 'If you don’t have anything good to say..." line isnt productive. If you've got sanding lines, bad fit, you should be told. You wont improve if everyone gushes over your bad pen. Just my skewed thoughts on it.

It's typical of the faceless, nameless, impersonal nature of the internet, which encourages much worse behavior and much more disrespect than would ever happen in person.

I agree a billionity percent. One small red herring though would be old buzzard here. This is an actual conversation regarding bullet casing pens. No newbs were hurt in this discussion. All rights reserved.

Me: I think I’m going to … long rant…., is that the way you would do it?
Eagle: No.
Me: Why not?
Eagle: Because that's the way an a**h**e would do it.
Me: Ah.

Baahhaahahaaa!
 

alamocdc

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Originally posted by baldysm
<br />
It's typical of the faceless, nameless, impersonal nature of the internet, which encourages much worse behavior and much more disrespect than would ever happen in person.
Jeff obviously is busy with the IAP forum and has missed both the political advertising and the face to face debates concerned the upcoming elections. :)

Scott, I didn't know you lived in Ohio. There's been more mud slinging going on than I've seen at some very entertaining mud wrestling... oops, I almost forgot... this is a family site.[}:)][:p]
 

dfurlano

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All in all I would say this was very tame.

Critiquing someones work is a lot different what was discussed here. If you make the forum make some rules; ie nothing can be personal or about topics not directly related to what is being critiqued.

I would volunteer to moderate the forum and heard the cats.
 

jeff

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We had rules. The quote below was posted as guidelines for the critiques forum.

It wasn't so much that there were arguments about what was being critiqued or disrespect between the maker and the reviewer. It was one "critiquer" arguing with another about what could or could not be seen in photos, or whether one had enough experience to offer a particular opinion. As the link to that other site points out, it's all subjective and a number of us have a very difficult time letting others have their opinions without challenge. Some of us just feel the right, or as I've been told "the duty" to flame on endlessly about things until our collective brains have melted into mush.

Unless we're ready to eject people for posting "I like it!" in a critiques forum where that's not welcome, or for griping about someone's photography skills because they can't see how metal mates to wood, there is no point in encouraging critiques.

<b>General:</b>

The intent of this forum is to provide a place for members who desire serious, constructive critique of their work. This is not the place to get a bunch of “nice pen!†and “wow, great job!†posts. If you just want to show off your work without critique (and there is nothing wrong with that!), visit the Show Off Your Pens forum. (See note below about posting in both forums.)

By posting your work in the Critiques Forum, you are asking your fellow penturners to point out the positive and negative aspects of your work, and suggest ways you can improve it with different design, material, finish, or technique choices.

When you receive a critique, accept it graciously. Asking for a critique, then getting upset when you receive it will significantly limit the number of responses you get in the future. Use the feedback you get to improve your work, OR ignore it and move on.

When giving a critique, be constructive. Give the kind of information you would value receiving for your own work. Offer commentary that helps the maker see the work in a new light, provides specific ways to improve it, and contributes to creative growth.

The Critiques Forum is not for general conversation. A bit of back and forth followup discussion is acceptable, but stay focused on the pen under consideration. Don’t argue with people providing critiques or dispute the validity of the feedback. If someone repeatedly provides useless criticism, the moderators will deal with it.

<b>What makes a good critique?</b>

Responses should provide some type of instructional, educational, and constructive feedback regarding the work. A critique should point out something done well, and the biggest improvement that you think can be made and why you think so.

The objective is not to point out the difference between the posted work and a museum quality masterpiece, but rather to improve the posted work. Comments should take into account the skill level of the maker. Someone's third pen deserves a different critique than a complicated custom job from an old-timer.

Remember, like everything else in life, there are good and bad critiques. A critique is an opinion, and improvements are best had when there are multiple viewpoints. Don’t critique other critiques! Focus on the posted work and your opinion of it.

<b>Tips for those seeking critiques:</b>

PLEASE post good photos. Use close-ups of specific areas if it will help the reviewers. If you post a blurry photo, the moderators may lock or delete your topic and ask you to post a better photo.

Describe the work. Include the kit manufacturer and model, plating, type of wood or other material, special techniques used, etc. Describe any specialized techniques or tools used. Put some effort into helping people understand what you’ve done and how you’ve done it.

If you’re looking for comments on a particular aspect of the pen, such as the shape, fit, finish, etc., say what you’re looking for or what you want ignored. If your skill level is not well known (perhaps you are a new member…) let us know something about your experience.

<b>Tips for those providing critiques:</b>

Don’t critique someone’s work unless you know what you’re talking about. Bad advice serves nobody. Offer critiques that are within your experience base. Nobody is standing at the door checking your credentials, but the voice of experience vastly improves the value of the critique. If you’re regularly offering critiques on complicated, custom designs, and you have nothing but straight, bushing-to-bushing slimlines in your photo album, your input will likely carry less credibility.

Remember that you are critiquing the work, not the person. Avoid personal references by talking about “itâ€, the pen, rather than “youâ€, the maker. Avoid using vague words like “niceâ€, “I like…â€, “goodâ€, or “bad†unless you can follow them with some specific supporting comments.

When you provide a critique, be clear, concise, honest, and direct, without being mean. This is not the place to flame or air personal grudges. Focus on the work under critique and be specific with your suggestions and observations.

<b>Crossposting:</b>

It's perfectly acceptable to post in both the Show Off You Pens Forum and the Critiques Forum. However, please don't upload the same photo twice. Use the "My Previously Uploaded Files" button in the photo upload box to select the same photo for the second post.

<b>Adminstrivia:</b>

Moderators will lock Critique topics after approximately two weeks. The nature of a critique is to improve future work. If you respond long after the request was posted, the maker may have long passed the point where your critique is useful.

Critiques will be archived on the same schedule as most other forums, approximately four months after the topic is locked.
 

alamocdc

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Originally posted by jeff
<br />Unless we're ready to eject people for posting "I like it!" in a critiques forum where that's not welcome, or for griping about someone's photography skills because they can't see how metal mates to wood, there is no point in encouraging critiques.

Agreed. I entered one pen in to the Critiques forum and withdrew it the same day. I was basically told my photography wasn't good enough for the pen to be properly critiqued so I removed it and never attempted it again. I didn't get all PO'd about it either. I just figured it was a waste of my time and effort and I have better things to do.
 

JimGo

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I actually liked the critiques forum, even though it did often end up in certain members sniping at others. I felt that I got some good feedback from it. Thankfully, I have DCBluesman, MDWine, Draken, and others to chat up in person.
 

dfurlano

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You wouldn't want to eject people but you should eject posts.

It wouldn't be a big deal if you didn't have the forum but then again it would be very unique if you did and it worked. The number one rule is that you can't challange someone else critique, you can offer your own about the subject but not about an individual.
 

DCBluesman

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The critiques forum did not die due to flaming. Flaming goes on in the Casual Conversation area quite frequently. It died because it was not properly moderated. I don't really care whether or not we have a new forum, but I don't want anyone hiding behind the fact that certain wars are allowed to flame on ad infinitum and others are heavy-handedly squelched. As for the other forum, who gives a rat's rump what they do over there?
 

DocStram

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I read over the Rules for Critiques very carefully. They seem to be well thought out and clear to understand. Here's a crazy idea .... but think about it ..... maybe we could have an objective moderator who is NOT and who has NOT been a member of IAP .... a person who doesn't even turn pens. Somebody who is an impartial observor who doesn't give a rat's a** about who the power people are in IAP or who has history of flamethrowing. Then, that person could objectively monitor the posts and pitch out any that do not follow the guidelines. I reckon I'm trying to find someway of salvaging the idea of a critiue forum.
 

JimGo

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Al, that will never work. You've seen how addictive pen turning is! The minute we introduce the non-turner to the topic and they see all the creative and technically accurate pens that can be made with "just a few hand tools" (not to re-kindle the earlier aspects of this thread), you KNOW they're gonna want to give it a try! [:D]
 

jeff

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Moderation has little to do with whether or not someone is involved in the activity they're moderating. If anything, a penturner would better understand the relevance of some comments. Personality is the key.

It seems like a lot of you would like to have a critiques forum. I'm going to open up a new topic for discussing this. Let's see how long it takes to have an argument in that topic [;)]
 

Skye

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Originally posted by gerryr
<br />What about someone who was a pen turner, but can't anymore?

Nah, I think if it's going to be someone with experience, it needs to be current experience.

The idea isnt the person's skill level, it's the simple ability to know a critique from a personal attack, advice from an insult, and someone taking advice from someone getting their panties in a wad.
 

GreggR

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Why Mr. Boone! Didn't I see a Mazak Quick-Turn behind you??! [:D] See, that's why I have a Haas VF-3 in my garage, cuz' I ain't got no skills either... LMAO
 
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Skye

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Originally posted by mrplace
<br />Wonder why his pen is worth $250k and these aren't?

http://www.airlineintl.com/loiminchay/loiminchay_forbidden-jade.htm

Simple; He's not asking $250K for them.

This whole thing reminds me of an church auction I was at. There was a painting, just a normal painting, nothing great. Bidding started at $25......$25.... do I hear $30?..... $30...... etc, etc. Sloooow to start, but then these two guys got into it. Back and forth, back and forth, the damn thing sold for <b>$3,000!</b> Now, does that mean the painting is worth $3,000? Absolutly not. The only thing that means is someone can say they paid $3,000 for it, and to some, that bragging right is worth paying for.
 
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