source for tool needed

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nwcatman

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Sep 30, 2007
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298
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south texas
have started to turn mesquite bowls (very poorly) and need an S-curve bowl rest. saw the ARTISAN bowl rest in csusa catalog and is just what i need, partly because the post available is for my old rockwell/delta lathe. but of course csusa is out of stock and have no idea when will receive a shipment. i have googled a few other sources but no luck. anyone know of another source? THANKS
 
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Rifleman1776 said:
Personally, I would class that as a 'want' item and not 'need'.
If you really feel the urge, there are many suppliers who might have them in stock. Or just wait until CS gets more. Maybe the feeling will pass......
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damn! why didn't i think of that?? guess i'll just sit here and stare at the bowl with all the interior catches from the tool extending too far over the edge of the standard tool rest and wait for the "urge" to pass. or until CS get them in stock. or until the other 6 suppliers i called decide to stock them. great advice frank! thanks.
 
At the risk of getting slaughtered I'd like to point out that the catches don't come from the tool being over-extended, they come from cutting with the wrong part of the gouge. I have a set of curved rests (different sizes no less) that have remained in their drawer for years. Ever since I discovered that I was the problem. They cost a small fortune though and serve to remind me that no amount of gadgets can replace practice.

Marc

nwcatman said:
damn! why didn't i think of that?? guess i'll just sit here and stare at the bowl with all the interior catches from the tool extending too far over the edge of the standard tool rest and wait for the "urge" to pass. or until CS get them in stock. or until the other 6 suppliers i called decide to stock them. great advice frank! thanks.
Click to expand...
 
marcruby said:
At the risk of getting slaughtered I'd like to point out that the catches don't come from the tool being over-extended, they come from cutting with the wrong part of the gouge. I have a set of curved rests (different sizes no less) that have remained in their drawer for years. Ever since I discovered that I was the problem. They cost a small fortune though and serve to remind me that no amount of gadgets can replace practice.

Marc
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really? my understanding, and just mine, is that the wood will grab the tool if the tool is not supported close enough to the wood, and thats why even on a standard tool rest turning between centers the rest needs to be as close to the wood as possible, within reason. i understand the concept of the bevel of the bowl gouge rubbing the wood for support and the the edge of the gouge scraping the wood, but seems like a rest, up close to the wood surface will provide a much smoother, safer cut. yes/no/maybe so?
 
Having the tool extended too far over the rest may cause vibration which will lead to chatter marks in the wood, but not a catch. I have turned a lot of bowls and never used a curved rest. Just adjust your straight rest so it is closer to the area that you are cutting, i.e. set it at a 45 degree angle to the face of the bowl.
 
marcruby said:
At the risk of getting slaughtered I'd like to point out that the catches don't come from the tool being over-extended, they come from cutting with the wrong part of the gouge. I have a set of curved rests (different sizes no less) that have remained in their drawer for years. Ever since I discovered that I was the problem. They cost a small fortune though and serve to remind me that no amount of gadgets can replace practice.

Marc
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Your response was more diplomatic than I had considered posting. I believe that, in actuality, very few bowl turners use the curved rest. It may be a nice thing to use but is not necessary. Catches come from other factors involving poor tool technique. nwcatman may want to slaughter you for not speaking his language (juvenile) but we were only trying to help.
 
You might try anybody that carries a good supply of Robert Sorby tools. Sorby makes a modular tool rest that has all of the usual accessories. I bought one when I was turning on my Jet VS Mini. I bought mine at The Cutting Edge while visiting my youngest son in Houston. Later when I upgraded to a PM3520B, I bought the larger diameter post from them for about $18.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
Your response was more diplomatic than I had considered posting. I believe that, in actuality, very few bowl turners use the curved rest. It may be a nice thing to use but is not necessary. Catches come from other factors involving poor tool technique. nwcatman may want to slaughter you for not speaking his language (juvenile) but we were only trying to help.
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Frank
You have yet to successfully turn a bowl and come off sounding like you think you are a pro.

You do more harm than good when you give this type of advice.

Edit in:
http://familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10857

marcruby said:
At the risk of getting slaughtered I'd like to point out that the catches don't come from the tool being over-extended, they come from cutting with the wrong part of the gouge. I have a set of curved rests (different sizes no less) that have remained in their drawer for years. Ever since I discovered that I was the problem. They cost a small fortune though and serve to remind me that no amount of gadgets can replace practice.

Marc
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Having the tool overextended from the tool rest can cause chatter, which can cause torn grain, rough finish and yes, a catch.

Now, you can get away not using a curved rest with a 6" bowl, maybe even a 10" bowl. Turning a 18" bowl a curved rest is essential.
 
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All I can give you is my experience, and I turn a lot of bowls and vessels. Catches occur when the wrong edge of the tool hits the wood. You can do this a lot of ways. Always ride the bevel and watch the leading edge of the gouge (I'm assuming you are using a fingernail ground bowl gouge here). You should be cutting with about a 1/16th to 1/8th section of the edge just to the left of the point for the cut you are talking about. If the tool is cutting deeper than that then there is a chance that you will pick up a nick from the right side and catch. Square ended gouges can also catch on the upper left edge. Whichis why I don't like them -- your cut is more constrained.


It takes a while before you will get the hang of this, but once you do, you will have eliminated the major source of catches. It sounds to me like you are pushing too hard. Try taking a lot of thin cuts instead one deep one. That really helped my own skill building.

As far as tool rests go, I have a lot of them, because that's what I thought I needed. What I use is a 4" offset rest that is best for pens and a 9" rest that is centered 3" from one end. If I feel I need additional support I poke one end or the other into the bowl. These get me close enough on the inside of the bowl to feel stable. I do use 4 different bowl gouges - 3/8" and 1/2" Sorby's, the 5/8" Ellsworth, and a 3/4" Thompson in a heavy handle. One of the factors in which tool I use is how much reach I need. That Thompson doesn't move unless I want it to.

So what I'm suggesting is that you make do with the rest you have and put the money into gouges. Or do smaller, shallower bowls until you're entirely comfortable and then figure out what you need then. Every bowl turner develops a different sweep and turn as their confidence builds -- you don't want your tools to force you into a pattern that isn't completely natural.

Well, I've talked way too much. See if you can borrow a few of Bill Grumbine's DVD's. He's a far better teacher than I will ever be.

Marc

nwcatman said:
really? my understanding, and just mine, is that the wood will grab the tool if the tool is not supported close enough to the wood, and thats why even on a standard tool rest turning between centers the rest needs to be as close to the wood as possible, within reason. i understand the concept of the bevel of the bowl gouge rubbing the wood for support and the the edge of the gouge scraping the wood, but seems like a rest, up close to the wood surface will provide a much smoother, safer cut. yes/no/maybe so?
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actually, i do have a bill grumbine DVD and love it. and i really do appreciate all the genuine advice i have gotten. i currently have the 5/8" ellsworth and a heavy round nose scraper. am considering the mahoney 1/2" finishing gouge (csusa # 247-3110) as in theory it seems to make sense. sure would like to spend the $100 on something else though. i have to work like everyone else to pay the bills but am tired of buying the wrong tools (and cheap wrong ones) over and over again. what thompson are you refering to, specifically? thanks again.
 
Ron in Drums PA said:
That's why you are not getting any chatter, a nice heavy tool can make all the difference...
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I think that's the point I was making
Now, you can get away not using a curved rest with a 6" bowl, maybe even a 10" bowl. Turning a 18" bowl a curved rest is essential.
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Now there I couldn't disagree with you more. And I work in the 12 to 16 inch range pretty often. A straight rest inside the bowl diameter works fine. It's simply a matter of how you want to work. I find curved rests get in the way of the sweep of my cut. It wants me to cut straight across and I cut up and then down through center. I can't do that if I'm too close. Now I do like to be close on the outside of the bowl because of the way I shift from roughing to finishing cuts. But on the inside I need 2 or 3 inches.

Anyway, I didn't dive in to discuss technique but to advocate a principal -- that a turner first master the tools at hand. Otherwise you are very likely to spend money solving a problem that is just part of growing pains on a lathe. Been there, done that.
 
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It's a v that I've extended just a bit. I couldn't recommend Thompson tools more. Unfortunately they are costly and you have to make handles for them. But if you have the ellsworth 5/8" you've got a good gouge that do plenty of hard work. It's a shame I can't see what you're doing -- you should be able to get close enough with a standard rest at an angle, which makes me wonder is your approach to the center isn't the problem.

Marc

nwcatman said:
MARC- the 3/4" Thompson gouge you have.........is it the V shape or the U shape tool?
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marcruby said:
I think that's the point I was making

Now there I couldn't disagree with you more. And I work in the 12 to 16 inch range pretty often. A straight rest inside the bowl diameter works fine. It's simply a matter of how you want to work. I find curved rests get in the way of the sweep of my cut. It wants me to cut straight across and I cut up and then down through center. I can't do that if I'm too close. Now I do like to be close on the outside of the bowl because of the way I shift from roughing to finishing cuts. But on the inside I need 2 or 3 inches.
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I hadn't realize you had a 3/4" Thompson, not to many pen turners have a big gouge like that. I'm also a big fan of Thompson gouges.

Depending on the size of the tool, I load up my handles with about 4oz-8oz of buck shot. Not only does this add more weight, it also dampens the vibration. I believe you can extend a little farther off the tool rest because of the extra weight too.


Funny, I prefer a straight tool rest on the outside. When I'm finessing the final cuts on the inside, a curved rest works best for me .
 
marcruby said:
It's a v that I've extended just a bit. I couldn't recommend Thompson tools more. Unfortunately they are costly and you have to make handles for them. But if you have the ellsworth 5/8" you've got a good gouge that do plenty of hard work. It's a shame I can't see what you're doing -- you should be able to get close enough with a standard rest at an angle, which makes me wonder is your approach to the center isn't the problem.

Marc
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what i'm thinking is.......my ellsworth for the roughing out and the thompson U shape for the finish interior. that good? i'm getting better with the ellsworth. a little. i realized a big problem is inadequate lighting in the shop to see the edge while its in the bowl so i'm doing it by feel.
 
also- to rough out the interior i am using the method shown by richard raffan in his book TURNING WOOD p. 160 in the middle left photo where he starts the cut with the tool on its side then rolls it slightly counterclockwise to continue the cut with the shavings coming off the edge at about the 1 oclock position. and this is what GRUMBINE shows too. is this how you do it too?
 
Now that you've turned on the lights I think your progress will surprise you! What size gouge were you considering? I use the Sorby's or the Ellsworth for finish cuts. I've never worked with the round Thompson's. Let me know if you decide to try one. By the way, both Thompson and Grumbine are very accessible by email. I had a long exchange with Bill when I was buying my vacuum chuck and he's the guy who steered me to Thompson.

Marc

nwcatman said:
what i'm thinking is.......my ellsworth for the roughing out and the thompson U shape for the finish interior. that good? i'm getting better with the ellsworth. a little. i realized a big problem is inadequate lighting in the shop to see the edge while its in the bowl so i'm doing it by feel.
Click to expand...
 
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