Rookie issues with European Style Roller Clip Pen Kit

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Mike

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I turned and finished a pen today, but I am not happy with it. It is one of the European Style Roller Clip pens with the tenon and I botched the tenon. The tenon was a few thousandths (.003?" too small and when I glued the center ring on, the wood is proud on one side and the metal on the other.
This was my third attempt on this pen kit and I think it might be above my skill level at this point. On the first 2 attempts, I turned the cap center end too small. I didn't pay attention to the instructions and the "suggested profile", plus the bushing is about .006 or .008" smaller than the finished part needs to be.
I need to practice turning to size without a bushing. I am going to move on to some simpler kits and then make up some blanks from scrap and practice.
Any advice or criticism welcome.

Thanks,
Mike
 
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From one Mike to another (we have to stick together) I have the same kind of problem, and a couple of years ago I took advice from experienced turners on IAP and started turning between centres and do not now use bushings.

Even though I say it myself, I have better results.

One gripe I have though is why is the headstock centre so small and the tailstock centre large? Sometimes the headstock centre is too small in diameter for the tubes, particularly in the larger pens.

Is there a larger headstock centre out there that I have missed?

Keep trying with the European Mike, but I have to say it isn't one of my favourites.

Mike
 
Mike said:
I turned and finished a pen today, but I am not happy with it. It is one of the European Style Roller Clip pens with the tenon and I botched the tenon. The tenon was a few thousandths (.003?" too small and when I glued the center ring on, the wood is proud on one side and the metal on the other.
This was my third attempt on this pen kit and I think it might be above my skill level at this point. On the first 2 attempts, I turned the cap center end too small. I didn't pay attention to the instructions and the "suggested profile", plus the bushing is about .006 or .008" smaller than the finished part needs to be.
I need to practice turning to size without a bushing. I am going to move on to some simpler kits and then make up some blanks from scrap and practice.
Any advice or criticism welcome.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...
If you like the look of Europeans, and don't want to mess with the tenons, there are some where you don't have to do a tenon. PSI has some as well as Craft Supplies USA, same look, no tenons to turn.
 
Turning to size without a bushing (whether tenon or blank) is easily accomplished with certain kinds of mandrels OR with a TBC - turning between centers setup. The TBC is rather simple and does not use a mandrel.

A look at the many mandrel systems and TBC is shown here:

Bottle Stopper, Pen, Project and Ring Turning Mandrels

Here is a sampling of Mandrels used to turn Pen and Project kits. These are available from many suppliers around the world. Many are in the USA, Canada, Europe, Asia, etc. This information does not reference Amazon, eBay, Etsy, non-pen related...
www.penturners.org
Click on the mandrel in the pict and a downloaded PDF will show just about every current mandrel related item for sale, plus other items and TBC. (Wayne spent a great deal of time and effort to make that PDF. We are so grateful for him for doing this.)

The TBC related items are:
# 32, 33 and 39 for drive centers
# 35-38 live centers.

There are mandrel related items in that PDF that can be used without bushings also.

AS you wrote, it is usually easier to turn to precise size if bushings are not used and calipers are.
 
Jans husband said:
From one Mike to another (we have to stick together) I have the same kind of problem, and a couple of years ago I took advice from experienced turners on IAP and started turning between centres and do not now use bushings.

Even though I say it myself, I have better results.

One gripe I have though is why is the headstock centre so small and the tailstock centre large? Sometimes the headstock centre is too small in diameter for the tubes, particularly in the larger pens.

Is there a larger headstock centre out there that I have missed?

Keep trying with the European Mike, but I have to say it isn't one of my favourites.

Mike
Click to expand...
Thanks, I will look into the TBC system. I don't see how it works, but it seems a lot of people like it.
I will watch some videos.

Mike
 
Hippie3180 said:
If you like the look of Europeans, and don't want to mess with the tenons, there are some where you don't have to do a tenon. PSI has some as well as Craft Supplies USA, same look, no tenons to turn.
Click to expand...
I am not a big fan of the European style look. I told my grandson and his wife to pick a pen from several websites and they both wanted the European with the roller clip. That's how I got here. I am using the Bethlehem olive wood. He works at their church as a maintenance man and is studying to be a minister and she is employed at the church as well. I want the pens to be as close to perfect as I can make them. Of course, that is always my goal.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Hippie3180 said:
If you like the look of Europeans, and don't want to mess with the tenons, there are some where you don't have to do a tenon. PSI has some as well as Craft Supplies USA, same look, no tenons to turn.
Click to expand...
I was looking at those last night. I will look further and see if I find one that looks the same as what I have.

Thanks,
Mike
 
leehljp said:
Turning to size without a bushing (whether tenon or blank) is easily accomplished with certain kinds of mandrels OR with a TBC - turning between centers setup. The TBC is rather simple and does not use a mandrel.

A look at the many mandrel systems and TBC is shown here:

Bottle Stopper, Pen, Project and Ring Turning Mandrels

Here is a sampling of Mandrels used to turn Pen and Project kits. These are available from many suppliers around the world. Many are in the USA, Canada, Europe, Asia, etc. This information does not reference Amazon, eBay, Etsy, non-pen related...
www.penturners.org
Click on the mandrel in the pict and a downloaded PDF will show just about every current mandrel related item for sale, plus other items and TBC. (Wayne spent a great deal of time and effort to make that PDF. We are so grateful for him for doing this.)

The TBC related items are:
# 32, 33 and 39 for drive centers
# 35-38 live centers.

There are mandrel related items in that PDF that can be used without bushings also.

AS you wrote, it is usually easier to turn to precise size if bushings are not used and calipers are.
Click to expand...
Thanks Hank. I really have not considered TBC. I have had very good outcomes with the bushings so far, but maybe it is time to look at TBC.

Mike
 
When turning anything to size it is wise to use digital calipers as you turn. Yes, it takes more time but it is the price of accuracy.
 
I used digital calipers, but I just took a few thousandths too much after the last check. I have 3 sets of nice calipers, one SS from Browne and Sharp that are over 50 years old and still work perfectly. One glass filled set, I forget the brand, but well made and a set from Vinca, 12" long, digital fraction, decimal and metric. Displays to .0001". I simply took too much off.
My eyesight is 20/20 at 71 yo. I had cataract surgery in 2018 and had the lens implants that allow you to see near and far in both eyes. It cost a couple thousand more than the basic implants, but it was life changing. So not being to see is not my problem.
Are there advantages to either the TBC with bushings or no bushings? I watched a couple videos and after seeing the TBC with bushings in action, it looks like it might be more accurate than a regular mandrel and you still have the bushing for a sort of crutch.
Maybe I can find a bushing the size of the tenon and use that? There is probably one in all the bushings I have.
Good stuff for me to think about.

Thanks again to all,
Mike
 
Mike,

Woodcraft (and perhaps other vendors) offer a bushing set for European styles. (See here) It has a "floating" ring over a bushing sized for the tenon, and you turn the tenon to size until the floating ring slips over the tenon.

Then you use the outer diameter of the floating ring to size for the mating surfaces of the trim ring and the barrel.

I think it works well. It lets you sneak up on the tenon sizing.
 
Brian G said:
Mike,

Woodcraft (and perhaps other vendors) offer a bushing set for European styles. (See here) It has a "floating" ring over a bushing sized for the tenon, and you turn the tenon to size until the floating ring slips over the tenon.

Then you use the outer diameter of the floating ring to size for the mating surfaces of the trim ring and the barrel.

I think it works well. It lets you sneak up on the tenon sizing.
Click to expand...
OK, now I feel stupid. That is the bushing set I have. If that is in the instructions, I didn't see it. Makes perfect sense. I will use it on the next one.

Thanks,
Mike
 
The current instructions on the Woodcraft site do not spell that out in the instructions.
Here is photo from an older set in my instructions binder.

I prefer to set up the orientation with the nib at the headstock end, so I set it up opposite of what is described.

IMG_20230725_203434616.jpg
 
Brian G said:
The current instructions on the Woodcraft site do not spell that out in the instructions.
Here is photo from an older set in my instructions binder.

I prefer to set up the orientation with the nib at the headstock end, so I set it up opposite of what is described.

View attachment 357435
Click to expand...
Thanks Brian. I googled "original 06s62 bushing instructions" and found instructions including using the sliding ring to size the tenon. I really appreciate you taking the time to point this out to me.

Mike
 
Brian,
The old instruction sheet I found was 77B04. It is an old B&W copy but is still legible. I went to the Woodcraft website and downloaded the new revised PDF in color and read it. It has the following text in the turning and finishing the blanks section. It is the same one I was using all along.

"A tenon will be required to be turned for the
Cap portion of this kit, refer to tenon image for specifications.
Use the center ring bushing to check your progress, once the
ring slides over the tenon proceed turning the remaining portion
of the cap end to the diameters of the bushings."

Point is, I did not read the directions thoroughly. Again, thanks for pointing this out. I should be able to complete these pens now and have them turn out the way I want.

Mike
 
Glad to have helped. I make the tenon slightly shorter, maybe 1/64" shorter, than the instructions indicate. That seems to give a better fit between the lower barrel and the center ring.

I also cut a relief groove in the tenon at the base for epoxy to collect when I glue on the center band.

I look forward to seeing your results.
 
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