Need Electrical Help please

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longbeard

longbeard

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Really to hard to explain like this but...

Doing remodeling and the contractor hit a live wire with a screw while putting the cabinets up. The wire went to a GFI outlet. Replaced the wire, now my kitchen light will NOT shut off. It is on a 3 way switch. Neither switch will shut the light off. Replaced both switches with new ones. Same thing, neither switch will shut the light off.

So, if there is an electrician in the house that wouldn't mind sharing some insight, I'd appreciate it greatly.

Harry
 
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Hate to say it.. but thinking there is more than one wire the contractor hit. I am a Master Electrician and unless the wire that was damaged went to the lighting, which it should not have by code, the only thing that could make it do what you are describing is someplace there is a connection between conductors in the cables. If you remove one or the other switches completely and leave the wires separated does it still come on? If so then it definitely is a wire damaged. My troubleshooting would start with doing that first on one switch, then on the other. How close to the GFCI is the switch? Hate to say it, but can only partially blame the contractor. If the cable was installed at the right distance from the face of the stud, or have a metal plate put in front of it if it was not, then it would not have been damaged unless the contractor is using way too long of screws.
 
Try to imagine how the cables might have been run to determine where it might have been damaged. There are a few ways the cables could run.

First would be for the power to run to the light fixture, from there a two wire cable to the first three way switch, and from that switch a three wire cable to the second three wire

Second would be for one switch to have the power going to it, a three wire cable to the other switch and a two wire cable from that switch up to the light. This is used most often if one of the switches is "ganged" with other switches.

Are there any new cabinets above the switches? Typically we run up to the ceiling from the switches, although sometimes they run horizontally.

Another quick troubleshooting way that works sometimes is to take a non contact voltage tester like you can get at Home Depot and hold it close to each screw in the cabinets to see if any show power. If you get any kind of indication, turn off the power and unscrew that screw. Turn the power back on and see if things have changed.
 
Are there other switches in the box?

Seems odd that neither switch would turn off the light, unless something else happened too...do all your other switches and outlets work?

Is the traveller wire on the correct terminal screw? Is your contractor switching the red or the black wire - and does it stay consistent? Did your contractor change anything in the way things are hooked up in the light fixture when they replaced the wire?

Above all - be safe! Hire an electrician! :smile:
 
Some where, probably after the switch(es)you have the hot wire to the light shorted to a feed that is hot all the time. But, without knowing how the circuit is wired it's about impossible to guess where. like wyone I would also suspect that another screw(s) is causing the problem I believe that no matter how it is wired if you disconnect the wires from both switches (at the switches) - only one wire to one switch should be hot I think you will find more than one. You will need to determine which is the feed that should be hot and the other is your problem.
 
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I am not a licensed electrician. However, your electrical problem does sound very strange. Actually, I have never heard of a malfunction of this type but, that's not saying much.

I'm thinking you had two problems caused by the remodeling. Sounds like the GFCI issue has been taken care of?

As far as the lighting problem, the only thing I can think of at the moment is that another screw somehow shorted the two traveling wires between the switches. This would have the effect of what you're describing.... I think :smile:
 
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These are difficult to diagnose over the internet. There may be something that would be easy to see if standing there but without seeing it it's largely guessing. I would check at the ends of the wire that was replaced. If there were any other connections in those boxes it may be possible something got mixed up in the process.
 
Harry::eek: :eek: First thing you need to understand is that this could be very dangerous to an untrained person. 120 volts kill more people than any other source of power. You have an energized fixture with no idea of where the power source is being fed from. This could lead to an unexpected shock. Second, if another screw has cut into a wire there could be arcing somewhere inside your walls, that could lead to a fire. If you want to do a little self testing yourself before calling in the experts, take wyone's advice and go to Home Depot or Harbor Freight and buy yourself a non-contact voltage tester. ( About $6 or less). Also works great for Christmas lights !! Check anywhere you or the contractor has attached something to the walls. Nails, screws, or staples with the tester. If you get any kind of a reading on one object, use a voltage meter set on 120 volts AC (usually a free-be at Harbor Freight with any purchase) put the black lead to ground and the red lead to the object and see if or how much voltage is present. If you have voltage present, this is your problem. Turn off breakers until voltage is Zero and remove object from wall. See if your problem has been removed. If not, I would call for help, because it's going to be a real pain in the butt to find out what happened and where !!! People always ask for advice on electrical problems, but unless I wired it myself, or am standing in front of it with my meters, I or anyone else has no idea where or what went into the wiring in the first place. I, like others here, can only tell you how it should have been done, and even then there may be several different ways of doing it and still be up to code. Good luck and be safe !!!!! Jim S
 
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If any of your new cabinets were installed below or above either switch, I would check for power on all screw heads inside those cabinets. I have a strong suspicion that what I described (post #6) above is what happened. One or more screws have shorted wire to wire the travelers going from switch to switch, making both of them always hot. So no matter what position either switch is in, the light will not shut off.

Good luck and be safe!
 
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While having lunch today at work I was thinking it would be much easier just to check either switch. That way you don't have to empty your cabinets. Both of your switches should have three terminals on them. Only one of the wires going to the two terminals that are next to each other from one side to the other should have power. If they're both hot your travelers are shorted and you should check the screw heads.
 
Contractors are responsible for their mistakes. You might consider approaching him to provide the correction. He would have to hire an electrician to correct the issue. That way nobody get shocked, the house is UNburned, and you have peace of mind. (Oh, and the light will turn off again!:biggrin:)
 
Haha.... even bether yet. Find the breaker that controls this circuit and turn it off. Check to make sure there's no power at either switch. Then do a continuity check with your HF digital multimeter on the two terminals I tried to explain above. One lead on each screw.... if your meter beeps, again, your travelers are shorted.

Good luck! Hope to hear from you soon :-)
 
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Hello Harry

Happen to come to the site today and saw your question about an electrical problem. You may have a dangerous problem. First thing is you did not supply enough info as to the problems. Did not mention if any electrical work was done to install these cabinets. Did not mention if the switches were in the way of said cabinets. But I will try to help. Have you talked to the contractor doing the cabinets about the problem and told him he should be the one to fix this and needs to fix ASP. You have an unsafe situation within the walls. If you are going to try to solve this on your own, do not work with the power on as others have suggested. bad idea. Next you will need a continuity tester of some sort. You can get them in Home Depot or Radio shack cheap.

Find the circuit that controls the GFCI and turn it off. Does the lights go out also??? If so then the circuit for those lights is picked off the GFCI circuit. ( No need to get into code or not, will work perfectly well if on the right side of that GFCI) If not then find the circuit that shuts the lights off. Remove both switches from the wall and note the colors of the wires on the switch by placing some tags so that they can be returned the exact way on the switch or you will be on here asking another question. (the key wire is the one on the darker terminal so please note that one especially) Remove the wires from the switches and with no wires touching each other or anything, take the continuity tester and test between the 3 wires at either of the 2 switches. Use all combinations. If at any time you get a signal weather a sound or light depending on the tester, indicates you have a short. (and a bad problem)

You said the GFCI was shorted by a screw and the cable was replaced??? How was it replaced and was there other wires in the GFCI box?? I ask because many times an electrician will run multiple wires through studs drilling only one larger size hole.. The screw can have cut through multiple cables in the same area. No blame to pass around because accidents do happen. Who's fault is irrelevant. That screw in the cabinet now was actually hot and being no ground it has a potential of being very dangerous especially if you happen to come in contact with it and touch some sort of ground. If you did not find the switch problem you may have the same situation that needs attention immediately.

If you do nothing soon I highly suggest finding that light circuit and shut it off and leave off till the problem is found. !!!!!

I also suggest you check all outlets and lights in your house and see if they are working properly. To do this will require another type tester at least. This contractor opened a whole set of concerns if it were me.
 
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Remember, even if you turn off power and the light goes out, you could still have hot wires in the switch boxes either from other circuits or from the cabinet screws which may have tagged two cables. Never assume all is dead unless you pull the main for the whole house ....even then, still check for voltage before digging in.

Good Luck!
 
Dalecamino said:
Dumb question!! Could it possibly be a faulty switch? That is stuck in the on position inside?
Click to expand...
While this as a problem is eliminated in the opening post. The answer to this question is "no it could not" if it were a problem internal to one of the switches it could cause a problem where neither switch would turn the light on but not where neither switch could turn the light off. The switch that was still working correctly could still turn the light off even if the other switch was shorted such that it would always appear to be "on".
 
jttheclockman said:
Hello Harry

Happen to come to the site today and saw your question about an electrical problem. You may have a dangerous problem. First thing is you did not supply enough info as to the problems. Did not mention if any electrical work was done to install these cabinets. Did not mention if the switches were in the way of said cabinets. But I will try to help. Have you talked to the contractor doing the cabinets about the problem and told him he should be the one to fix this and needs to fix ASP. You have an unsafe situation within the walls. If you are going to try to solve this on your own, do not work with the power on as others have suggested. bad idea. Next you will need a continuity tester of some sort. You can get them in Home Depot or Radio shack cheap.

Find the circuit that controls the GFCI and turn it off. Does the lights go out also??? If so then the circuit for those lights is picked off the GFCI circuit. ( No need to get into code or not, will work perfectly well if on the right side of that GFCI) If not then find the circuit that shuts the lights off. Remove both switches from the wall and note the colors of the wires on the switch by placing some tags so that they can be returned the exact way on the switch or you will be on here asking another question. (the key wire is the one on the darker terminal so please note that one especially) Remove the wires from the switches and with no wires touching each other or anything, take the continuity tester and test between the 3 wires at either of the 2 switches. Use all combinations. If at any time you get a signal weather a sound or light depending on the tester, indicates you have a short. (and a bad problem)

You said the GFCI was shorted by a screw and the cable was replaced??? How was it replaced and was there other wires in the GFCI box?? I ask because many times an electrician will run multiple wires through studs drilling only one larger size hole.. The screw can have cut through multiple cables in the same area. No blame to pass around because accidents do happen. Who's fault is irrelevant. That screw in the cabinet now was actually hot and being no ground it has a potential of being very dangerous especially if you happen to come in contact with it and touch some sort of ground. If you did not find the switch problem you may have the same situation that needs attention immediately.

If you do nothing soon I highly suggest finding that light circuit and shut it off and leave off till the problem is found. !!!!!

I also suggest you check all outlets and lights in your house and see if they are working properly. To do this will require another type tester at least. This contractor opened a whole set of concerns if it were me.
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That's true John - even the age of the house and whether or not it ever had all the wiring updated would be helpful.

I bought an old farm house where we lived for 32 years. It had once been a two family that was converted to a single family. You wouldn't believe some of the wiring in that house. The mixture of wiring was unbelievable - about every iteration of house wiring from knob and tube to 3 wire romex with ground.
 
One other thing you might want to check, or ideally have the electrician recheck, is that when he replaced the wire that was damaged, he re-wired the switches and the light properly. It sounds like he could have connected the "hot" wire directly to the light rather than through the switches. If he did this by mistake, the light will never go out. This is easier to do than it sounds as with three way switches there is an extra wire to add in to the mix. While you are at it, you might want to make sure that if it was a 3 wire cable that was damaged, it was replaced with a 3 wire cable. If there are no red wires, in addition to the black and white, in the box, you might have a problem.
 
longbeard said:
JP61 said:
Well? Is it fixed?
Click to expand...

Lol...sorry for not updating. The new switches was bad also. Replaced the new switches with new switches :rolleyes: and I have a light that works again. Go figure the odds on that one would ya.



Harry (lottery time)
Click to expand...


Impossible. 4 switches do not go bad. There is more to this story.

If you have a continuity tester you will be able to tell if those switches are actually bad. One lead on the discolored screw and then the other on one of the other screws. If you get a light or sound depending on the tester turn the switch off and the indicator should go off. If so then do the same with the other screw. If either way there is no change than the switch is bad. If you get no sound or light either way the switch is also bad.

If all switches check out, you my friend still have a problem. I would not rest on the fact that you changed switches and it now works. You possibly have an intermittent situation. This would be a professional opinion. I know I would want to know if those switches were actually bad.

You also may want to use better switches Leviton or hubbell and if are used alot use a heavy duty rated switch.
 
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jttheclockman said:
longbeard said:
JP61 said:
Well? Is it fixed?
Click to expand...

Lol...sorry for not updating. The new switches was bad also. Replaced the new switches with new switches :rolleyes: and I have a light that works again. Go figure the odds on that one would ya.



Harry (lottery time)
Click to expand...


Impossible. 4 switches do not go bad. There is more to this story.

If you have a continuity tester you will be able to tell if those switches are actually bad. One lead on the discolored screw and then the other on one of the other screws. If you get a light or sound depending on the tester turn the switch off and the indicator should go off. If so then do the same with the other screw. If either way there is no change than the switch is bad. If you get no sound or light either way the switch is also bad.

If all switches check out, you my friend still have a problem. I would not rest on the fact that you changed switches and it now works. You possibly have an intermittent situation. This would be a professional opinion. I know I would want to know if those switches were actually bad.

You also may want to use better switches Leviton or hubbell and if are used alot use a heavy duty rated switch.
Click to expand...

2 not 4
And yes, they were bad. Sorry you if you find that "impossible"
 
Please do not feel sorry for me. At least you have 2 good switches when the next time that happens. You will know what to look for next time. Good luck. Still has me scratching my head though.
 
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