Copying in General

[Smitty37]

We have a lot of discussions regarding copying - I have not gone around to check, but I would imagine that every hobby forum where things are made by the hobbiest has similar discussions. While not encouraging or condoning the practice here is my take.

1. Copying is human nature - it is engrained in our genes (in my opinion). Human babiess learn to walk, talk and almost everything else we do by copying.

2. We encourage copying - humans have entire industries that are built on 'copying' whatever sells. Let someone 'invent' a new toy for instance.

3. Copying does have a negative impact on invention - that was discovered long ago and gave rise to patents - but even patents have always had time limits after which we not only say it is OK to copy but we actually encourage it. Generic drugs are an example - and I am personally very happy that they are a load cheaper than the originals.

4. Art and architecture seem to have been copied since they first appeared. Often one or more of the copies is all that have survived. Who knows who built the first pyramid? But, we do know that quite a few of them were built. Today there are 'forgers' of art that are as well known as the originators and their work has become quite valuable.

5. There has always been some conflict over what constitutes enough change to an old idea to make it a 'new' idea. A history of Thomas Edison's patents makes clear the answer is - not much. At least at that time, the rules have since changed. But, the conflict continues. We discuss it often here.

What I am trying to convey here is that copying what works is a normal human activity and will always be with us. In general, that's good, its the way we learn. But, it will always leave us with a debate over the ethics of copies of specific items...a debate that will never be settled.

 

[1080Wayne]

We have a lot of discussions regarding copying - I have not gone around to check, but I would imagine that every hobby forum where things are made by the hobbiest has similar discussions. While not encouraging or condoning the practice here is my take.

1. Copying is human nature - it is engrained in our genes (in my opinion). Human babiess learn to walk, talk and almost everything else we do by copying.

2. We encourage copying - humans have entire industries that are built on 'copying' whatever sells. Let someone 'invent' a new toy for instance.

3. Copying does have a negative impact on invention - that was discovered long ago and gave rise to patents - but even patents have always had time limits after which we not only say it is OK to copy but we actually encourage it. Generic drugs are an example - and I am personally very happy that they are a load cheaper than the originals.

4. Art and architecture seem to have been copied since they first appeared. Often one or more of the copies is all that have survived. Who knows who built the first pyramid? But, we do know that quite a few of them were built. Today there are 'forgers' of art that are as well known as the originators and their work has become quite valuable.

5. There has always been some conflict over what constitutes enough change to an old idea to make it a 'new' idea. A history of Thomas Edison's patents makes clear the answer is - not much. At least at that time, the rules have since changed. But, the conflict continues. We discuss it often here.

What I am trying to convey here is that copying what works is a normal human activity and will always be with us. In general, that's good, its the way we learn. But, it will always leave us with a debate over the ethics of copies of specific items...a debate that will never be settled.

I`ll copy that argument !!

 

[BJohn]

Not feeling guilty are you LOL

 

[Smitty37]

Not feeling guilty are you LOL

About what?

 

[robertkulp]

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery, but theft takes money out of your pocket.

You should feel honored if you create something that others want to copy, but that doesn't help you pay your bills.

 

[Smitty37]

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery, but theft takes money out of your pocket.

You should feel honored if you create something that others want to copy, but that doesn't help you pay your bills.

That is partly true. It is a form of flattery. I assume you are referring to theft of intellectual property here. That might or might not take money out of the originator's pocket depending on the circumstances.

 

[Wildman]

Smitty37 shocked that you even bring up the subject of copying. Are you saying it is okay for pen/wood turners adopt a flea market tube sock mentality!

You might be on to something majority of pen turners buy their kits and blanks from vendors. Those vendors buy their supplies from a few major suppliers!

Agree have to be a follower learning the basics of pen turning or any other craft. There comes a time though doing what everyone else is doing become stale. If you do not have the confidence to challenge yourself it's time to pack it in.

Not sure where a pen turning falls into theft of intellectual property. See recurring theme expressed on many woodworking message boards over many years. Good luck proving theft in federal court! State courts have no jurisdiction in the matter! There have been a few cases brought before small claims courts and plaintiff had trouble proving or collecting on their cases.

Don't take my word on it, get the facts!
http://www.wikihow.com/Prove-Intellectual-Property-Theft

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty37 shocked that you even bring up the subject of copying. Are you saying it is okay for pen/wood turners adopt a flea market tube sock mentality!

You might be on to something majority of pen turners buy their kits and blanks from vendors. Those vendors buy their supplies from a few major suppliers!

Agree have to be a follower learning the basics of pen turning or any other craft. There comes a time though doing what everyone else is doing become stale. If you do not have the confidence to challenge yourself it's time to pack it in.

Not sure where a pen turning falls into theft of intellectual property. See recurring theme expressed on many woodworking message boards over many years. Good luck proving theft in federal court! State courts have no jurisdiction in the matter! There have been a few cases brought before small claims courts and plaintiff had trouble proving or collecting on their cases.

Don't take my word on it, get the facts!
How to Prove Intellectual Property Theft: 6 Steps (with Pictures)

Read the OP again. I don't think I said anything of the kind.

 

[PenPal]

Smitty you will never suck me in with your need to stir the pot. Looking at your stock alone who made the fist one etc I rest my case. He who sells the stock as a retailer has responsibility as well


Peter

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty you will never suck me in with your need to stir the pot. Looking at your stock alone who made the fist one etc I rest my case. He who sells the stock as a retailer has responsibility as well

Peter

What case would that be? I don't see that you made a case for anything.:biggrin:

 

[KenV]

I suspect that copy or knockoff led to the tradition of trade secrets. Most trade secrets today involve contracts and non-disclosure agreements. Some involve careful thought to obscure methods of achieving the outcome.

Probably it is the copies for renumeration, and the copies that make the special/unusua into the common and ordinary that cause the greatest clamour.

 

[Smitty37]

I suspect that copy or knockoff led to the tradition of trade secrets. Most trade secrets today involve contracts and non-disclosure agreements. Some involve careful thought to obscure methods of achieving the outcome.

Probably it is the copies for renumeration, and the copies that make the special/unusua into the common and ordinary that cause the greatest clamour.

Absolutely and a long time ago at that. Before 1500 by some estimates...in the British System which ours is much like late 1600s is generall thought of when patents began to be considered.

 

[BJohn]

Smitty, it was just sarcasm.

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty, it was just sarcasm.

Really? I saw the LOL. Maybe I should have put one of these :biggrin: at the end of my post???:biggrin:

 

[BJohn]

Have a great day :wink:

 

[TonyL]

Going to take a break from work now, and have some fun Andy Rooney style - innocent sarcasm intended. I am typing with a smile (not a smirk).

I don't think enough has been said about copying -jeez only 9 pages of posts on the one where some, every so lightly intimated (you really had to read between the lines to spot the accusations) that another member/retailor is a thief (I am glad we stopped before any one was hurt.) , we were barely getting warmed-up. In fact, I didn't realize that some had backgrounds in Darwinian studies and Mendel's genetic theory - I'm sure advanced degrees at that. I feel better about the copying (aka plagiarizing) that I practiced in college. I didn't know I was simply responding to my DNA programing. That also explains my hours in Fordham's library studying (the co-eds).

While we are on the topic of pen turning, I thought I would saunter over some more innocuous subjects like:

The removal of the Confederate flag in SC
Too Big to Fail Bailouts
The Affordability Care Act
Recent Supreme Court Decisions
UFO sightings (actually I heard that Big Foot was seen flying a UFO why towing the Loch Ness monster and Abby Hoffman's remains).
The real inventor of the Internet; it has to be one of us I would think.

Maybe after we enjoyed a spirited conversation about the above, I will start a post on Christian apologetics, just for sport and possibly a team building exercise.

Forgiving me for boring all with so much talk about pen turning. And by the way, if you have found the best epoxy glue out there or how to achieve the best CA finish, don't spoil it for the rest of it, and tell us. We would all prefer to know that none of our suppliers carry it. I am all for the thrill of the hunt!

Ok...back to work. I am glad that I am not a union member, I may have violated my CBA by using my break to write this. Hey, "unions"! They must use pens; let's discuss the pros and cons at the next MAPG.

Well, I had fun writing this, and I hope you enjoyed reading it. BTW, I invented "BTW". .

 

[Wildman]

Smithy37, stand by my post and don't need to read OP again!
Think expressed my feelings on copycats pretty well in my "Herd Following" posting, which monitor closed because he & many others found to be too offensive. G0-Mena Si, but stand by that post too!

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/herd-followers-124200/

There is a big difference between telling people to copy and produce identical items verus attempt to emulate, equal or surpass the original item. Encouraging people to emulate and put their personal spin on something far better than telling them to make exact copies of items.

There are plenty of highly talented people in woodturning community sharing information on how to do things if take time to listen, read, or watch. Most of those people don't mind if take an idea or technique and run with it.

 

[CREID]

Going to take a break from work now, and have some fun Andy Rooney style - innocent sarcasm intended. I am typing with a smile (not a smirk).

I don't think enough has been said about copying -jeez only 9 pages of posts on the one where some, every so lightly intimated (you really had to read between the lines to spot the accusations) that another member/retailor is a thief (I am glad we stopped before any one was hurt.) , we were barely getting warmed-up. In fact, I didn't realize that some had backgrounds in Darwinian studies and Mendel's genetic theory - I'm sure advanced degrees at that. I feel better about the copying (aka plagiarizing) that I practiced in college. I didn't know I was simply responding to my DNA programing. That also explains my hours in Fordham's library studying (the co-eds).

While we are on the topic of pen turning, I thought I would saunter over some more innocuous subjects like:

The removal of the Confederate flag in SC
Too Big to Fail Bailouts
The Affordability Care Act
Recent Supreme Court Decisions
UFO sightings (actually I heard that Big Foot was seen flying a UFO why towing the Loch Ness monster and Abby Hoffman's remains).
The real inventor of the Internet; it has to be one of us I would think.

Maybe after we enjoyed a spirited conversation about the above, I will start a post on Christian apologetics, just for sport and possibly a team building exercise.

Forgiving me for boring all with so much talk about pen turning. And by the way, if you have found the best epoxy glue out there or how to achieve the best CA finish, don't spoil it for the rest of it, and tell us. We would all prefer to know that none of our suppliers carry it. I am all for the thrill of the hunt!

Ok...back to work. I am glad that I am not a union member, I may have violated my CBA by using my break to write this. Hey, "unions"! They must use pens; let's discuss the pros and cons at the next MAPG.

Well, I had fun writing this, and I hope you enjoyed reading it. BTW, I invented "BTW". .

Hi TonyL
I'm typing with a smile too.
You forgot a couple of topics.
Guns and since I have seen gator jaws blanks and snake skin blanks we should discuss animal right.
personally I am not going to watch any more threads on the subject this thread and another thread started on, it brings out the worst in people and I'm here for pen making and that's what I enjoy not the bashing everyone's intelligence (think about that). So if I have offended anyone with this post, Big Deal. If you want to flame me, Go Ahead. I won't see it.
I really hope the IAP doesn't stoop any lower.
Curt

 

[Smitty37]

Going to take a break from work now, and have some fun Andy Rooney style - innocent sarcasm intended. I am typing with a smile (not a smirk).

I don't think enough has been said about copying -jeez only 9 pages of posts on the one where some, every so lightly intimated (you really had to read between the lines to spot the accusations) that another member/retailor is a thief (I am glad we stopped before any one was hurt.) , we were barely getting warmed-up. In fact, I didn't realize that some had backgrounds in Darwinian studies and Mendel's genetic theory - I'm sure advanced degrees at that. I feel better about the copying (aka plagiarizing) that I practiced in college. I didn't know I was simply responding to my DNA programing. That also explains my hours in Fordham's library studying (the co-eds).

While we are on the topic of pen turning, I thought I would saunter over some more innocuous subjects like:

The removal of the Confederate flag in SC
Too Big to Fail Bailouts
The Affordability Care Act
Recent Supreme Court Decisions
UFO sightings (actually I heard that Big Foot was seen flying a UFO why towing the Loch Ness monster and Abby Hoffman's remains).
The real inventor of the Internet; it has to be one of us I would think

Maybe after we enjoyed a spirited conversation about the above, I will start a post on Christian apologetics, just for sport and possibly a team building exercise.

Forgiving me for boring all with so much talk about pen turning. And by the way, if you have found the best epoxy glue out there or how to achieve the best CA finish, don't spoil it for the rest of it, and tell us. We would all prefer to know that none of our suppliers carry it. I am all for the thrill of the hunt!

Ok...back to work. I am glad that I am not a union member, I may have violated my CBA by using my break to write this. Hey, "unions"! They must use pens; let's discuss the pros and cons at the next MAPG.

Well, I had fun writing this, and I hope you enjoyed reading it. BTW, I invented "BTW". .

When did we get on the subject of pen turning?

 

[Smitty37]

Smithy37, stand by my post and don't need to read OP again!
Think expressed my feelings on copycats pretty well in my "Herd Following" posting, which monitor closed because he & many others found to be too offensive. G0-Mena Si, but stand by that post too!

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/herd-followers-124200/

There is a big difference between telling people to copy and produce identical items verus attempt to emulate, equal or surpass the original item. Encouraging people to emulate and put their personal spin on something far better than telling them to make exact copies of items.

There are plenty of highly talented people in woodturning community sharing information on how to do things if take time to listen, read, or watch. Most of those people don't mind if take an idea or technique and run with it.

Well I think you do need to reread the OP. and my reply to your first post in this thread. I addressed only one line of your first post - that line had only to do with the "question" you asked me. I said nothing regarding anything else in your post.

 

[TonyL]

Going to take a break from work now, and have some fun Andy Rooney style - innocent sarcasm intended. I am typing with a smile (not a smirk).

I don't think enough has been said about copying -jeez only 9 pages of posts on the one where some, every so lightly intimated (you really had to read between the lines to spot the accusations) that another member/retailor is a thief (I am glad we stopped before any one was hurt.) , we were barely getting warmed-up. In fact, I didn't realize that some had backgrounds in Darwinian studies and Mendel's genetic theory - I'm sure advanced degrees at that. I feel better about the copying (aka plagiarizing) that I practiced in college. I didn't know I was simply responding to my DNA programing. That also explains my hours in Fordham's library studying (the co-eds).

While we are on the topic of pen turning, I thought I would saunter over some more innocuous subjects like:

The removal of the Confederate flag in SC
Too Big to Fail Bailouts
The Affordability Care Act
Recent Supreme Court Decisions
UFO sightings (actually I heard that Big Foot was seen flying a UFO why towing the Loch Ness monster and Abby Hoffman's remains).
The real inventor of the Internet; it has to be one of us I would think

Maybe after we enjoyed a spirited conversation about the above, I will start a post on Christian apologetics, just for sport and possibly a team building exercise.

Forgiving me for boring all with so much talk about pen turning. And by the way, if you have found the best epoxy glue out there or how to achieve the best CA finish, don't spoil it for the rest of it, and tell us. We would all prefer to know that none of our suppliers carry it. I am all for the thrill of the hunt!

Ok...back to work. I am glad that I am not a union member, I may have violated my CBA by using my break to write this. Hey, "unions"! They must use pens; let's discuss the pros and cons at the next MAPG.

Well, I had fun writing this, and I hope you enjoyed reading it. BTW, I invented "BTW". .

When did we get on the subject of pen turning?

Good one!

BTW, received the Royales today...thank you Smitty! I should have bought a U bit while ordering. Next time. Have a great one!

 

[Smitty37]

Going to take a break from work now, and have some fun Andy Rooney style - innocent sarcasm intended. I am typing with a smile (not a smirk).

I don't think enough has been said about copying -jeez only 9 pages of posts on the one where some, every so lightly intimated (you really had to read between the lines to spot the accusations) that another member/retailor is a thief (I am glad we stopped before any one was hurt.) , we were barely getting warmed-up. In fact, I didn't realize that some had backgrounds in Darwinian studies and Mendel's genetic theory - I'm sure advanced degrees at that. I feel better about the copying (aka plagiarizing) that I practiced in college. I didn't know I was simply responding to my DNA programing. That also explains my hours in Fordham's library studying (the co-eds).

While we are on the topic of pen turning, I thought I would saunter over some more innocuous subjects like:

The removal of the Confederate flag in SC
Too Big to Fail Bailouts
The Affordability Care Act
Recent Supreme Court Decisions
UFO sightings (actually I heard that Big Foot was seen flying a UFO why towing the Loch Ness monster and Abby Hoffman's remains).
The real inventor of the Internet; it has to be one of us I would think

Maybe after we enjoyed a spirited conversation about the above, I will start a post on Christian apologetics, just for sport and possibly a team building exercise.

Forgiving me for boring all with so much talk about pen turning. And by the way, if you have found the best epoxy glue out there or how to achieve the best CA finish, don't spoil it for the rest of it, and tell us. We would all prefer to know that none of our suppliers carry it. I am all for the thrill of the hunt!

Ok...back to work. I am glad that I am not a union member, I may have violated my CBA by using my break to write this. Hey, "unions"! They must use pens; let's discuss the pros and cons at the next MAPG.

Well, I had fun writing this, and I hope you enjoyed reading it. BTW, I invented "BTW". .

When did we get on the subject of pen turning?

Good one!

BTW, received the Royales today...thank you Smitty! I should have bought a U bit while ordering. Next time. Have a great one!

23/64th/9.5mm/9.6mm or 3/8th will all probably work OK depending on what glue you want to use.
BTW I would love to discuss any or all of the above and frequently do --- however the administrative staff here at IAP, being long on Rule enforcing and short on sense of humor --- take a dim view of such discussions

 

[PenPal]

Smitty my computer skills are restricted how to plonk a smile where I miss the varied and expressive smilies on another site.

I suggest when you make a contribution you do invite replies that enable you to have a long drawn out by play with words. That can be fun.

As a dealer I know you are aware of the great Chinese tradition of copying and selling so we as the general public have observed the likeness in so many pen products these days.

Nearly turning 81 yrs of age myself I do enjoy a robust discussion.

Have a good day.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[Smitty37]

Smitty my computer skills are restricted how to plonk a smile where I miss the varied and expressive smilies on another site.

I suggest when you make a contribution you do invite replies that enable you to have a long drawn out by play with words. That can be fun.

As a dealer I know you are aware of the great Chinese tradition of copying and selling so we as the general public have observed the likeness in so many pen products these days.

Nearly turning 81 yrs of age myself I do enjoy a robust discussion.

Have a good day.

Kind regards Peter.

I am certainly well aware of the Chinese reputation (or as you put it tradition) of copying and selling cheaper. And before China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore but that's not the intended subject of the discussion. Just "copying" in general not related to any specific kind of copying. edit: You have a few years on me but not many - I'm in my 78th year.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

My feeling is this: copying is the way we learn. It is not the way we express maturity.

Taking aspects / ideas / principles of others and incorporating / evolving / improving on them should happen. It's one of the major ways we move forward.

Exact copying is not a mature expression in any craft.

It takes great skill to forge the painting of a master. But the forger's forgeries will not be known as masterpieces.

That's my opinion.

 

[Smitty37]

My feeling is this: copying is the way we learn. It is not the way we express maturity.

Taking aspects / ideas / principles of others and incorporating / evolving / improving on them should happen. It's one of the major ways we move forward.

Exact copying is not a mature expression in any craft.

It takes great skill to forge the painting of a master. But the forger's forgeries will not be known as masterpieces.

That's my opinion.

True enough when linked to "craft" but exact copying is highly desireable in almost all production operations.

That is true but ironically at least one infamous forger Han Van Meegeren became famous enough (largely because of his forgeries) that his own paintings were forged.

In the world of Stamp Collecting there are counterfit stamps that are worth more than the real thing - technically they are not forgeries because they were created to do some government out of postage.

 

[BKelley]

On occasion I have seen a nice looking pen here on IAP and have made one for myself.
I don't think I committed a heinous crime. If I copied a patented product and mass produced it then I've crossed over the line. Just my feeling.

Ben

 

[low_48]

On occasion I have seen a nice looking pen here on IAP and have made one for myself.
I don't think I committed a heinous crime. If I copied a patented product and mass produced it then I've crossed over the line. Just my feeling.

Ben

No problem in my mind, until you sell one. Selling even one means you profited from someone else's work. Making one for yourself, that's just fun.

 

[Smitty37]

On occasion I have seen a nice looking pen here on IAP and have made one for myself.
I don't think I committed a heinous crime. If I copied a patented product and mass produced it then I've crossed over the line. Just my feeling.

Ben

No problem in my mind, until you sell one. Selling even one means you profited from someone else's work. Making one for yourself, that's just fun.

Both of the posts here are being a little to specific for this thread. I don't want it to turn into a discussion of copying pen blanks etc. That subject get discussed frequently.

 

[Silver]

Just a thought of copying, some common business rules apply and ethically be followed, however there are many things that have been copied and then became understood to be there work.

This statement says allot about the world, but does it say more about who it is attributed too? It has been said that Ruskin came out with this quote, but did he. In fact he probably didn't, but everyone assumes he did..

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that man's lawful prey.

However, to ASSUME a makes and ASS of U and ME....

So did he copy a statement and then is was assumed he was the author?

Probably going too deep now for some of you, but even though someone copies something that is not patented then is that breaking the law, remember ethically is not a law, just your own personal choice of laws to follow.

 

[PenPal]

This thread.

1 (copying is human nature) 2.(we encourage copying) 3. (Copying does have a negative impact on invention) 4.(Art and architecture seem to have been copied since they first appeared.) 5.(there has always been some conflict over what constitutes enough change to an old idea to make it a new idea).

Addressing 1.Agreed. 2.Personal decision. 3.It can. 4.This is true. 5.Absolutely true.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[Smitty37]

This thread.

1 (copying is human nature) 2.(we encourage copying) 3. (Copying does have a negative impact on invention) 4.(Art and architecture seem to have been copied since they first appeared.) 5.(there has always been some conflict over what constitutes enough change to an old idea to make it a new idea).

Addressing 1.Agreed. 2.Personal decision. 3.It can. 4.This is true. 5.Absolutely true.

Kind regards Peter.

We pretty much see eye to eye on this subject. On item #2. When I said "we encourage copying" I was referring to things like teaching children to copy adults. Maybe I should have made that a little clearer.

 

[Smitty37]

Long enough

I think this thread has done what I intended it to do. I was trying to point out that human beings of necessity 'copy' - we would probably not havesurvived as a species if we did not so copying is built in to our genetic make up. And frequently we still 'copy'. Marketers rely on that. How many of you have never seen a friend with a new tool and said "I gotta have me one of those"? Well everytime you did that you were copying. Now, when you just go to the store and buy that tool nobody has a problem with that copying. If you figure out how to make it yourself and do that. Nobody has a problem with that copying.

It is only certain specific kinds of copying that we take umbrage with and then only in a 'commercial' sense. That's why there is a fine line between legal and illegal commercial copying and all the laws and regulations surrounding it.

In short expect the controversies regarding 'stealing ideas' to continue happening.