What factors decide penmaking ability?

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Dan Masshardt

Dan Masshardt

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Ok, this has nothing to do with qualifications for contests and the whole conversation is objectively subjective (did you like that?), but...

What aspects of pen making do YOU think qualify someone as having moved to intermediate or advanced?

Are there some real benchmarks?

Do you think there are some or many people who 'live' at one of the stages forever?

Just curious on thoughts.
 
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I feel like I'm a perpetual beginner.. I can make a nice pen, but others can make them just as nice but much quicker, while others can make them much nicer AND much quicker... I'm not even a beginner when it comes to segmenting, and then there is the kit (pen-turner) vs kitless (pen-maker) levels, casting, strange materials... And I think for a majority of people, the level they put themselves will be different (probably lower) than the level others would put them...
 
Here's how I look at it.

At the beginner level, craftsmanship is of paramount concern. Striving for flawless fit and finish of purchased parts.

At the intermediate level, competent craftsmanship is expected and artistry starts to play a role. Some parts of the pen (usually the blank) will directly reflect the artistic capabilities of the pen maker.

At the advanced level, the art of pen making is paramount. Superb craftsmanship is a given and the ability of the individual pen maker to express their unique artistic vision will set them apart from the majority of pen makers.

As in any endeavor in life, some people are content to remain at a comfortable level of achievement. Others will never be content no matter what level of achievement they realize.

Ed
 
And here's how I look at it.. I've been turning pens for approx. 3 years..everyone that started this ..er..hobby understands the progression and while some shine early...some shine late..to me it's a personal thing that if you're happy with your own progress you are as good as the insanely talented people on this site...and when I say insanely talented....they know of whom I speak...and for one I am really crushed i80 is moving on..damn:frown:
 
I don't know that there are any solid factors in deciding. When looking at others entered into these categories, do you think you are better than those or not yet to that level? If you are comfortable at a certain level and do not wish to advance to another level for whatever reason yet have won competitions at said level, retirement from competition is, IMHO, advised.
From my personal standpoint, I am never satisfied with where I am. I want more. I want a challenge. I still make kit pens, but because they are beautiful and are liked and I have too many about. I have segmented and done kitless/ custom. These days I do what pleases me, most of the time on a whim. I like contests because it focuses me toward a goal, something to work toward.
Where do you feel you belong? If you are In doubt, go to the next one above.
 
I think you have moved to intermediate when turning a straight blank and pushing parts in no longer challenges you. You will want to have more control over the blanks so you cast or start segmenting. Your fit and finish are consistent and well executed. You have moved into advanced when you realize the restraints of premade parts. So you start eliminating them altogether or you make as many of your own as you can. Your casting and segmenting designs become better executed and more advanced in their designs. Fit and finish are flawless. You start to look for the undiscovered material or technique and push the boundries of pen making.
 
If you can make a complete pen (a style you've made recently) without having to dig up the instructions yet again, you're definitely no longer a beginner. :big grin:

If your designs intentionally leave out some of the kit's parts, and the pen is still fully functional, you're approaching the high end of intermediate. Note the word, "intentionally" in there…

As an intermediate, you should be able to able to whip out a new (to you) style without any major panic attack. You know it'll need its own bushings, you'll have the right sized drill bit handy, and your only real concern is assembling the pieces in the right order after you're done turning the blanks.

If you're making your own pen parts, or making pens without kits, you've hit the advanced levels.
 
intermediate would be when you throw your carbide tools in the corner and start to get very intimate with your abilities and start thinking for yourself.

Advanced would be when you can make something out of nothing. Raw materials and I am not talking about making blanks either, I am talking the whole 9 yards. At this stage you start to transcend well beyond common tools like tap/dies, chisels and the like when you discover you don't need them at all.
 
edstreet said:
intermediate would be when you throw your carbide tools in the corner and start to get very intimate with your abilities and start thinking for yourself.

Advanced would be when you can make something out of nothing. Raw materials and I am not talking about making blanks either, I am talking the whole 9 yards. At this stage you start to transcend well beyond common tools like tap/dies, chisels and the like when you discover you don't need them at all.
Click to expand...

98% of my turning is with carbide tools, but I don't think I would be considered a beginner.

I do like your advanced description.
 
edstreet said:
intermediate would be when you throw your carbide tools in the corner and start to get very intimate with your abilities and start thinking for yourself.

Advanced would be when you can make something out of nothing. Raw materials and I am not talking about making blanks either, I am talking the whole 9 yards. At this stage you start to transcend well beyond common tools like tap/dies, chisels and the like when you discover you don't need them at all.
Click to expand...

I can make a functioning pen with a twig, a sharp rock and a handful of blueberries, blackberries or even Ga red clay.

As we say down here, you can put butter on my butt, but it still ain't no biscuit. I DON'T think doing things without proper tooling makes you "advanced anything"", except perhaps an advanced Boy Scout.

I think moving beyond "boxed sets", DOES qualify as advanced as there is no "follow step one, insert part B, etc." One actually has to design, plan, implement and yes, even sometimes fabricate tools that only exist in your imigination.

Respectfully submitted.
 
Dan Masshardt said:
Ok, this has nothing to do with qualifications for contests and the whole conversation is objectively subjective (did you like that?), but...

What aspects of pen making do YOU think qualify someone as having moved to intermediate or advanced?

Are there some real benchmarks?

Do you think there are some or many people who 'live' at one of the stages forever?

Just curious on thoughts.
Click to expand...
I also think Intermediate refers to kit pens being modified in some way. Which includes segmented blanks. Maybe decals, stamps and aluminum tape then cast in resin. I think Advanced refers to pen making as opposed to pen turning. When you've learned how to create MOST of the pen parts and, make them fit together and, create a nice appearance and, functionality, you've advanced. If anyone has remained at a level below that, it has to be for a reason. That's where I was, before I had the good fortune to meet Mike Roux and, Mike Redburn. They showed me there is another way to make a pen. Without kits! Since that time, we have loaded the library with How To tutorials & articals. Anyone who really wants to can, make an advance.

Another thought I had.....there HAS to be different levels of ADVANCED. Just because I learned to drill and, tap threads on an acrylic or, metal blank yes, maybe that was an advancement from pressing parts together. Even finishing a pen and, putting a clip on it was more of an improvement/advancement. At THAT point, I wouldn't consider myself an ADVANCED pen maker. I think, someone else would have to tell me WHEN/IF I get there. Sorry for rambling:redface:
 
PenMan1 said:
edstreet said:
intermediate would be when you throw your carbide tools in the corner and start to get very intimate with your abilities and start thinking for yourself.

Advanced would be when you can make something out of nothing. Raw materials and I am not talking about making blanks either, I am talking the whole 9 yards. At this stage you start to transcend well beyond common tools like tap/dies, chisels and the like when you discover you don't need them at all.
Click to expand...

I can make a functioning pen with a twig, a sharp rock and a handful of blueberries, blackberries or even Ga red clay.

As we say down here, you can put butter on my butt, but it still ain't no biscuit. I DON'T think doing things without proper tooling makes you "advanced anything"", except perhaps an advanced Boy Scout.

I think moving beyond "boxed sets", DOES qualify as advanced as there is no "follow step one, insert part B, etc." One actually has to design, plan, implement and yes, even sometimes fabricate tools that only exist in your imigination.

Respectfully submitted.
Click to expand...

You entirely missed my point. I was not indicating doing things 'without proper tooling'

Masters of the Fountain Pen - Harumi Tanaka
 
Maybe a couple of things...a heart for it, and the willingness to try something on your own. When I started...there was no IAP so you dove in and got busy, ya screw up, ya make another blank and do it again. And the heart to really love doing something that matters to you personally, that seems to make the process easier. As an example...one of my gifts is not music; as a result I have to work twice as hard to be mediocre at guitar as someone with that gift.
 
First off if I ever go to lunch with Andy I'm not ordering biscuits. :eek:
Definitely not a simple answer to this question. Most would say that because I can make a pen with only a clip and a mechanism that would make me an advanced pen maker. Looking around the site I would say that I'm a little better than average pen maker. The progression in this undertaking isn't linear and that is what makes it subjective. Threading is something a lot of people think is an advanced thing, but if you can sharpen a pencil you can thread a blank. I've seen some clunky kitless pens and some beautiful kit pens. I would say there are 2 factors to think about. One being technical ability. Being able to get each part exactly the right size. The other is the mind set of the builder. Being able to stay with it until it's exactly how they want it. Also the ones that can visualize what they want and make it. As Dale said 3 categories isn't enough. I have a person who comes to my shop who has made 3 pens. He cast a 3 color blank, fussed with it until it was exactly the same size as the bushings and the shine on it is incredible. His first pen looks as good or even better than kit pens I make. Yet he is the beginner and I'm advanced.
 
..unlimited creativity comes to mind. The only person who you need please is yourself!
 
Dan Masshardt said:
is objectively subjective (did you like that?), but...


Just curious on thoughts.
Click to expand...

I've read this whole thread ( yep, I'm bored!!:rolleyes: ) and I think you need to expand a bit on that phrase. :wink:

PenMan1 said:
As we say down here, you can put butter on my butt, but it still ain't no biscuit.

.
Click to expand...

Now I don't care what you Southern boys smear on your butts, or even why you do it, but putting butter on a biscuit is just sick!!!:eek:
 
This is a hard question but I would look at it like this. I say like most, it depends on what is defined as advance and intermediate. The masses that come together can define this to a set standard, to a point, but even that can be off.

I consider my self an advance beginner and starting to venture into intermediate. Others would say I'm intermediate. I agree with those that say it's a state of mind and the views of others.

I'll end on this quote

"A master of the basics is still a master and is just as capable as a master of all techniques. He is even capable of beating the master of all because his techniques are equally as dangerous."
 
John Den said:
Now I don't care what you Southern boys smear on your butts, or even why you do it, but putting butter on a biscuit is just sick!!
Click to expand...
No -- Crackers
John
Click to expand...

Skip:
I've eaten Welsh biscuits. If 3 tablespoons of Hartley's finest Black Currant Jam doesn't help them, neither will butter:)

And John, down here, a CRACKER is not a food. It's a smart a$$ed white boy (to quote ex Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young).


"We now return you to your regularly scheduled pen making thread".
 
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I think I would rather not be put into a box at all. I would rather keep an open mind and realize there is always room for improvement. I try to make pens that stand out weather segmented or not. I rarely purchase blanks anymore but try to keep my pens as my pens. I like understated hardware that doesn't take away from the beauty of the wood or whatever other material I am using.
 
skiprat said:
Dan Masshardt said:
is objectively subjective (did you like that?), but...


Just curious on thoughts.
Click to expand...

I've read this whole thread ( yep, I'm bored!!:rolleyes: ) and I think you need to expand a bit on that phrase. :wink:

PenMan1 said:
As we say down here, you can put butter on my butt, but it still ain't no biscuit.

.
Click to expand...

Now I don't care what you Southern boys smear on your butts, or even why you do it, but putting butter on a biscuit is just sick!!!:eek:
Click to expand...
Depends on the bisquit.
 
PenMan1 said:
John Den said:
Now I don't care what you Southern boys smear on your butts, or even why you do it, but putting butter on a biscuit is just sick!!
Click to expand...
No -- Crackers
John
Click to expand...

Skip:
I've eaten Welsh biscuits. If 3 tablespoons of Hartley's finest Black Currant Jam doesn't help them, neither will butter:)

And John, down here, a CRACKER is not a food. It's a smart a$$ed white boy (to quote ex Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young).


"We now return you to your regularly scheduled pen making thread".
Click to expand...
hmmmm...In todays world a Cracker (or Redneck) can be found anywhere - In NY we usually lived upstate and were known for riding around wih a gun in the back window of our pickup.
 
mikespenturningz said:
I think I would rather not be put into a box at all. I would rather keep an open mind and realize there is always room for improvement. I try to make pens that stand out weather segmented or not. I rarely purchase blanks anymore but try to keep my pens as my pens. I like understated hardware that doesn't take away from the beauty of the wood or whatever other material I am using.
Click to expand...

I think I have to agree with Mike... I've been turning pens for about 12-15 years and while I rarely do one now, preferring other forms of turning that I think are more profitable and more of a challenge, I think I'm pretty much adequate at most any level... I don't do kitless, or closed ended, but believe I have the ability should I get back into turning pens.. Also I don't like classifying people... there's too much of that going around anyway...
 
TellicoTurning said:
I don't like classifying people... there's too much of that going around anyway...
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That sounds like Barth's Distinction: "There are two types of people - those who group people into two types, and those who don't".

And here's, one of my long-time favorites (having been an assembly language computer programmer): "There are 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't".

Given the extraordinary work shown by the "advanced" penmakers on this site, I'll probably consider myself "intermediate" for the foreseeable future.

Regards,
Eric
 
Sylvanite said:
TellicoTurning said:
I don't like classifying people... there's too much of that going around anyway...
Click to expand...
That sounds like Barth's Distinction: "There are two types of people - those who group people into two types, and those who don't".

And here's, one of my long-time favorites (having been an assembly language computer programmer): "There are 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't".

Given the extraordinary work shown by the "advanced" penmakers on this site, I'll probably consider myself "intermediate" for the foreseeable future.

Regards,
Eric
Click to expand...
I think that plays out to there are only 2 people - you and me and I have me doubts about you.
 
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