2012 Best of IAP Contest - Discussion Thread

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Best of input...not to start a ruckus!!

I agree that previously posted pens should be allowed and heres my reasons.
I make a pen in December, I cannot share it for a year!!
We share, if made in December, it cannot inspire someone for a year!!
If its a "Best of" it will hold up even after everyone saw it before.
For those that don't want to risk someone copying or improving on their idea, don't show it.
The judges should not be partial, we trust your choices.
I may not feel it is unique enough or done well enough... a "winner" until it is received well here.
I shared two other pens, here and would be delighted to send them in, but I can't. I just don't have enough time to replicate them.
There were many pens that could have been sent and could have won, increasing IAP $ but they are not allowed. I know... I was in awe of several of them.
I think this is the reason only 27 were sent and there are many, many more that should have qualified.
 
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Scott said:
I think I have received all the pens I was expecting. We had 27 entries this year. That is fewer than last year. It's enough entries to go ahead with the judging, but I am going to take a look at whether we'll continue this contest into the future. If you have thoughts on the subject, please post them here. I am willing to be influenced by honest feedback!

Scott.
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I would love to see this contest continue. I wanted to send in an entry but life got in the way, I returned to full time school this past spring for a 12 month course to become an LPN. There just isn't enough hours in the day. I'm already mentally working on my entry for 2013.
 
jttheclockman said:
First off it is 27 pens and some people sent more than one and when you do that the entry price just went up no more for shipping. Not 27 people entered.

Now if the money is used for other things than understandable. As I said you put all pens in one box and ship to the 3 judges. If you are shipping individual than you need to rethink.

You have to remember a contest of any kind is a 2 way street. Both sides get something out of it. Exposure.
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Ok,27 pens/27 people, my point is there should have more than 27 pieces to judge! If someone feel the need to enter more than one pen than pay the price; as far as the money goes, I don't care if it was spent on bearer bonds for the Brooklyn Bridge,I entered the contest for fun, if I were concerned about cash I could have just sold the pen!
I think that our concerns would be better served trying to help expand the contest next year instead of throwing popcorn from the cheap seats and complaining about things we don't like
This is fun for me (pen making) and past arrogance on my part made it not
fun for a few days,and I learned two valuable lessons 1: there is going to be another chance at a better pen tomorrow and 2: see # 1
 
I feel the need to explain my last post,
I quoted Johns' post to make the point that it was a shame that there are only 27 pieces to judge. Anything more was simply my Techno Handicap and my feelings and not directed at
any single person,WE have to get this Best Of thing to a higher level of participation
and our next chance is next year.
The money thing,It isn't important in fact if I were Scott I'd probably pay myself for the aggravation
we cause him.
The arrogance thing,Some of you may remember the go around and apology I made to George over the washington pen thing,my point there, is that worrying about something that I could not control took the
fun out of pen making for several days and I didn't change anything, just made myself look bad, when the solution was to just make another pen.
I think the point that I'm trying to make is that instead of sweating the small stuff WE as a group
should work towards a better Event next year,I'm not sure what if anything I can do to help
but SIGN ME UP AS A HELPER IF YOU NEED HELP. I would even be a judge if you believe I won't favor
my own pen and your still on board with the Santa thing

Mark
 
THis is an age old problem with any competitions in any field of endeavor. What will motivate people to join in and compete. Some people dont like rejection. Some wont make an effort because they feel they wont win and so dont try. Most fail to realize if you dont go up against the big guns you wont ever achieve their level. sometimes you have to try and fail and come back again and again to force yourself to achieve the level of pen making it takes to win. We have a lot of talented pen makers that make top level pens. We have even more members who are on their way to being that pen maker also.

They must also realize there is more than 1 slot in each class to win. Its not a one pen winner compitition. I realize that part of the solution is for some of us to talk it up and help keep it in front of the members pushing them to join in.
 
Although I may be in the minority, I did not expect many more or less than the 27. If you look at the number of more advanced entries from the bash, its in proportion. Yes there are many pens posted on the site that would be worthy, yet many of these are not qualified as the beautiful blank may be made by someone else. For a "Best of" contest, perhaps there should only be one category - A pen that writes.

As others have said - time is also an issue. Concurrent with this contest is the PITH and Collaborative Challenge and if I don't get busy, I will have nothing for the 2013 bash. While this hobby affords us the ability to make a simple pen in an hour or so, the special ones created for a contest or PITH can take months of design and prototyping. I had 2 planned, but only finished 1 in time.

Win or lose, these are indeed fun and offer the incentive to come up with new and unique designs. Keep them coming!!
 
The pens I entered in the contest had a couple of "firsts" in them for me. The contest motivated me to expand my boundaries and try new things in an attempt to make something special. Without the contest, I might have gotten around to trying those new things someday, but maybe not. I think discontinuing the contest would be a loss to the community.

Ed
 
I thought $20 was reasonable. The timing within the year is not the best time because there are a lot of school startup things this time of year for kids kicking off a new school year. I do see the difficulty with pushing it into October and squeezing too close to holidays - but maybe a deadline of Oct 15?
I really wanted to enter a fountain pen, but I'm not doing my own tap and die and my design included some altered components (kit parst) that excluded me. But on the flip side of that - I see the need to take the fountain pen out of the "kit" level if we are going to rise to a "best of" level. It challenges me to step up my level for next year and try to compete with the custom fountain pen group. (you guys/gals are inspiriing)

I agree with Michael that many exclude themselves because they don't think their work is "good enough." I don't know how to overcome that, but I have seen pens on this site that I think could have been entered.

My #1 question is... why do we have the "never been posted" rule for this contest? This contest is not a public poll. I think individuals should be able to submit pens that they have made and posted for this contest. Let the judges be mature enough to be impartial and unbiased. Require individuals not to make mention of submitted pens in any post during the contest. This might increase the entries.

Thanks for the chance to share my 2 cents

Martin
 
the only reason that I can think of , on the pen not being showned before would be its blind contest where the judges dont know whos pen is whos.....
 
If the judges are familiar with the forum, they will likely have some idea as to the maker wether its been posted or not. I think our judges could be impartial even if they had a good idea who made the pen.

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David M said:
the only reason that I can think of , on the pen not being showned before would be its blind contest where the judges dont know whos pen is whos.....
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That blindness is lost because the judges are going to get the pens to look at during the next month or so. For true impartiality the pens should not be posted until the judging is completed. While I trust in the integrity of the judges, IAP and in Scott, the possibility of a non-winner feeling otherwise exits.
 
The Judges are probably fairly intelligent people but aside from the remarkable stuff I (JJ Artwood ) put up
for post I find it hard to believe that they would remember an individual pen.
All kidding aside the easy solution would be to set a cut off date for the post prior to the contest.
and even if a pen were to be remembered unless there is a personal connection, the maker and pen being remembered is slim in which case the mentality would have to be that 1,we trust the judges and 2 the risk of the occasional reconignition of a pen is far out weighted by the potential increase in participation

Look at the entrance fee, 1st pen $20/ 2d pen $15/each additional pen $10

A slimline class (kit hardware only and required ) most newer makers favor the slims.
A Journeymans class (kitless fountain and rollerball )
A modified kit class
An open class for privousley posted and anything goes pens.

PLEASE this is no more than an idea and not any kind of"I know what I'm talking about" thing
Mark
 
Those classifications are more like what the birthday bash competitions are comprised of. I believe that this competition was not aimed at the new turner but at more experienced turners. Kits are allowed but may affect the judges decisions. I have advocated a separate class for segmentation for those that use cnc equipment over those that dont. Im not sure if the different price schedule for multiple pens is enough to pull more individuals into the contests, It would however make it cheaper to enter multiple pens by the same contestants. The problem that I see with the split fee structure is that there are monetary prizes for each category and the entry fees go to support those prizes as well as shipping.
 
I did not submit. The back kept me out of it.


When I came out of my pain pill induced haze and saw the post I was surprised and thought the bash events were starting early. I think this might be a situation where timing of the event is the issue. I am thinking this contest could coincide with the Bash and get better reception. I think it is much more appropriate as a Bash event instead of some random done in september idea. But this my opinion.
 
I believe that this was done specifically not to coincide with the bash. The bash has several catagories and last years prizes for the top 3 spots were considerable. I think the idea was not to detract from the bash entries.
I think having it earlier than september say announced in mid june and due by august first. might help. Or maybe it just needs time to settle in to a steady time frame each year so it is predictable.
 
mredburn said:
Those classifications are more like what the birthday bash competitions are comprised of. I believe that this competition was not aimed at the new turner but at more experienced turners. Kits are allowed but may affect the judges decisions. I have advocated a separate class for segmentation for those that use cnc equipment over those that dont. Im not sure if the different price schedule for multiple pens is enough to pull more individuals into the contests, It would however make it cheaper to enter multiple pens by the same contestants. The problem that I see with the split fee structure is that there are monetary prizes for each category and the entry fees go to support those prizes as well as shipping.
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I agree. Sounds like a birthdate bash repeat. I love the birthday bash! But this event is to raise the bar to challenge us beyond.
Really enjoying this discussion thread

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The rule about not having posted the pen before is simply to encourage more people to enter. In a contest meant for the best penmakers, it would be easy to scare a lot of people off if everyone posts pictures of their entries. That's it. Nothing deeper. And I would be willing to change it if you could give me a different way to assure that people would not be discouraged from entering.

Also, remember that this contest is for the best of IAP. The Bash is for everyone to enjoy and participate. This contest is fot the best penmakers to stretch their abilities, and show us what they can do. Remember, I was the one who designed and ran the first couple of Bashes, and I also came up with this contest, so I know what they're intended to do. There is a place for both. But I would be happy to change this contest to make it better. So keep up the suggestions, a revamp is due.

Scott.
 
I would keep some sort of rule that pens should not be posted announcing "this is my 'best of' pen."
However, if a person built a pen sometime in the past and wanted to enter it without announcing it on IAP, .... That sounds doable to me. Only the judges would potentially know anything about it.

Is the judging done? Because the rules allow for entrants to announce their entries and show photos after the entry deadline. How does that factor in?

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Ok,before I put this out there,let me say I DID NOT MIX MY MEDICATIONS UP !
what if the only thing that changes is the submission date? By that I mean the early submission, So if a any time during the year I build a keeper that I think might compete
and I know that if it stays in the cave it's gonna end up posted, With the completed entry form and fee I just mail it when it's ready. With a cutoff date and a black out time while the actual judging is going on.
 
Well I will chime in again. I feel the pen submitted for this particular contest should be ones that have never been seen before and that no one can post any photos or discription until all votes are in and the judges should not have access to names of entries. Maybe they will be able to figure out who did what but that is for them to unbiasly vote and not attach a name to it because of past work. If you can not keep yourself from posting said pen then don't enter and use it for some other contest. That part should not be that hard to do.

This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners, not saying that a newcomer can not produce a very fine piece of art which then they have to make up their own minds to enter it or not. I also strongly and can not state this moreso that any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens. This is truely unfair even though the excuse used it takes work and talent to program the machine.

I think the dates are fine and just because you have other contests going on you will find the time to do this if you truely want to. If you set a date for next year you can have a friendly reminder every month by Scott as a sort of countdown. Or have a clock inserted as a sticky on top of the Home Page or some other place showing time left to enter.

As far as getting more people in just look what happens trying to get pen turners to show their work here. They all clamor about being copied and ideas stolen so it is another factor to overcome. Figure that one out and you may have more entrys. I do not believe there should be a beginners catagory. This contest is for the elite but as I said if a beginner thinks they can compete then do so and welcome. Not sure of any other way to get more people in than to talk it up more.
 
jttheclockman said:
.[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...
Click to expand...

If this contest had been promoted as something for only elite pen turners, I would not have sent in an entry. I was willing to send my personal "best of" and have it judged against other entries because I saw it as an opportunity for me to grow as a pen maker. Not because I think I'm the "best of" of IAP. I know I'm not.

These days you can build a cnc type machine for about what it costs to buy a low end metal lathe. All you need is the knowledge to build it and the skill to use it. Considering all the specialized equipment that is used by various members in creating their pens, why would cnc be singled out as offering an unfair advantage?

What about metal lathes? They offer a tremendous advantage to a pen maker. But not everyone has one.

What about the skill and equipment to cast metal fittings?

What about the people who have ultra precise micro saws for segmenting?

How about the equipment to pressure / vacuum cast?

The competition is never going to be completely fair unless you have a defined list of tools and materials that everybody is limited to. But if you are trying to have a competition for the truly elite pen makers, why would you want to limit them in any way?

Ed
 
It not all about who wins!

Certainly, if you were one of the 27 who sent your offering in for the "Best of" it would be judged against the best of "that batch" of pens...no argument. It is a great way to see where you stand. This is a fantastic opportunity to show what you got, unfortunately, a hand turned slimline kit in cocobolo has a difficult time going up against a kitless fountain pen that has been made using a cnc inlay body or a hand cast blank. So, there are categories to even up the field. Thats it!!
Here we have a chance to get our pens seen on an international level and we have 27 pens, why is the only question. If thats all we get entered, then maybe we are not qualified to have this opportunity. That should be more a concern to keep this going than who has a bigger advantage. It should not be about who wins... that is subjective based on the judges decisions. We all win if we have a respectable number of our "best" pens involved in this display.




parklandturner said:
jttheclockman said:
.[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...
Click to expand...

If this contest had been promoted as something for only elite pen turners, I would not have sent in an entry. I was willing to send my personal "best of" and have it judged against other entries because I saw it as an opportunity for me to grow as a pen maker. Not because I think I'm the "best of" of IAP. I know I'm not.

These days you can build a cnc type machine for about what it costs to buy a low end metal lathe. All you need is the knowledge to build it and the skill to use it. Considering all the specialized equipment that is used by various members in creating their pens, why would cnc be singled out as offering an unfair advantage?

What about metal lathes? They offer a tremendous advantage to a pen maker. But not everyone has one.

What about the skill and equipment to cast metal fittings?

What about the people who have ultra precise micro saws for segmenting?

How about the equipment to pressure / vacuum cast?

The competition is never going to be completely fair unless you have a defined list of tools and materials that everybody is limited to. But if you are trying to have a competition for the truly elite pen makers, why would you want to limit them in any way?

Ed
Click to expand...
 
The reason I advocate a separation for cnc generated work in the segmented class is that cnc machines can produce work that is much more precise than physically possible by hand and some times not possible by hand. All those other machines take learned manual skills to produce precise products or "craftsmanship". I employ all of the tools including the cnc mill you mention in my production of pens with exception of the vacuum casting. I see the dilemma in separating cnc work by causing more work for the judges or watering down the entries so that there isnt enough participation in any category.
Eventually you may not be competitive without cnc produced parts in all categories. Right now we dont have enough members that have that capability to support the contest in a capacity that will ensure the competitions continuing on into the future.
If the sponsoring entities are fine with the 25+ entries and will continue to support the contest at those levels until enough time has passed to bring participation up then Im fine with the rules as they are. If they set a fixed schedule for the same time each year so we can count on it, and actively promote it in advance. It will grow in entrants and quality of the pens submitted.
 
Alright,THATS IT!!!!
Lets have a competition to see just who the best pen maker is!
Anybody got any ideas what we should call it? I prefer or choose not to use mechanical assistance however with technology being what it is, it is unavoidable that it will be part of
everything we do today. I think that the field is already level because I find mechanical work to be sterile and too perfect,lacking personality( only my opinion,don't send the cyborges )
So I say "run what ya brung" the part that is getting lost is the design aspect.
An ugly pen that's perfect is still an ugly darn pen!
I build pens to be used and not case queens so I find it difficult to be married to a project pen
only because I'm a combat turner most of the year for show inventory BUT I saw a few pens this week
on SOYP that were quite stunning and could run with any of the big dogs.
We have come full circle back to how they were made,
GOOD JOB SCOTT ! we haven't been able to find the "better" way, you nailed it.

Mark
 
I know the top 3 in last years open Bash contest had nothing to do with CNC even though any tool was allowed and at least one CNC assisted pen (mine) was entered. Design and craftsmanship will win every time. Of all the pens I have entered in contests, the most time consuming and challenging for me have involved the use of a CNC for at least part of the fabrication. I've won a few and lost many but it usually is not because of the CNC. Looking back on other open category bash contests, more non CNC assisted pens have been in the top 3 than CNC aided ones.
 
Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP. So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't. Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre. So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.

I was surprised to see they were letting folks post their pens before the judging is complete. You know if the judges saw me post a pen that voice in their head would say I'm not voting for that pen he's the one thats a smart a$$ on the forums. :)
 
Gilrock said:
Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP. So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't. Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre. So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.
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It would not be a wast , its a challange . I also do not get very many views when I post in soyp even fefer likes . I very seldom post there but I know how you feel . I did do well in some of the bash contest and last years casing contest and even placed in the best of contest. Just because you dont get alot of likes or comments shouldnt keep you from entering a contest ( you cant win if you dont play ).
David M
 
Well I might try an entry in the bash contest next year but Best of IAP just doesn't sound like anything I qualify for. It takes creativity and I'll be the first to admit I'm not that creative. If they make a category for who can best copy someone else's pen I'm in. ;)
 
Gilrock said:
Well I saw no reason to waste my time entering a pen when I rarely get more than 10 likes on a pen I show in SOYP. So even though I think some of my pens are awesome others don't. Then I see people rave over pens I think are mediocre. So I've had to get over that urge to seek a pat on the back for my pens.

I was surprised to see they were letting folks post their pens before the judging is complete. You know if the judges saw me post a pen that voice in their head would say I'm not voting for that pen he's the one thats a smart a$$ on the forums. :)
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Don't be dissuaded - Different contests have different judges and criteria. I've done better in contests where I sent in the pen and didn't have to rely on my photography skills. Sometimes the likes are proportional to how good the picture is rather than how good the pen is. The fun is in the participation.
 
parklandturner said:
jttheclockman said:
.[snip].This contest is designed to be for the ellite pen turners.[snip].any CNC work should have its own catagory and not be allowed to compete against other types of pens...
Click to expand...

If this contest had been promoted as something for only elite pen turners, I would not have sent in an entry. I was willing to send my personal "best of" and have it judged against other entries because I saw it as an opportunity for me to grow as a pen maker. Not because I think I'm the "best of" of IAP. I know I'm not.

These days you can build a cnc type machine for about what it costs to buy a low end metal lathe. All you need is the knowledge to build it and the skill to use it. Considering all the specialized equipment that is used by various members in creating their pens, why would cnc be singled out as offering an unfair advantage?

What about metal lathes? They offer a tremendous advantage to a pen maker. But not everyone has one.

What about the skill and equipment to cast metal fittings?

What about the people who have ultra precise micro saws for segmenting?

How about the equipment to pressure / vacuum cast?

The competition is never going to be completely fair unless you have a defined list of tools and materials that everybody is limited to. But if you are trying to have a competition for the truly elite pen makers, why would you want to limit them in any way?

Ed
Click to expand...


I just love when people take out the words they want to demean in someone's post. If you want to underline my use of elite please include the entire quote. I said if a beginner feels he or she can produce something worthy then they too can be called elite. Heck anyone can be elite. The contest is for the BEST and to me that means ELITE. You have the Bash why not have this contest for the ELITE or if you want to use the word BEST.

I stated my opinion on CNC machines.
 
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Thank you, thank you for this discussion! You all reaffirm why I put this contest together! I'm pretty sure I have the contest put together pretty well, meaning there's always room for improvement. My big worry is that the contest has become of no use and only a little interest. But your passionate and well reasoned discussion makes me feel as though maybe there is a reason to hold this contest. So thank you!

Scott.
 
Just a thought,thru out this thread I keep hearing that these contest are designed for
different levels of penmaker.
What if each contest were designated as a level 1, level 2 ,level 3 and so on,
If level 3 is intended for a novice pen maker than a level 1 winner would be expected to
not compete as this would be unfair to the true level 3 participant or maybe be restricted to a single "open class",I think this would encourage the up start makers who are still developing their skill and style to take a run at the competitions.
Just a thought.
Mark
 
Just my opinion

We have that opportunity in the annual bash, this is truly a "best of" that competes with the elite pen manufacturers for space in Pen World Magazine and a showing of fine turners in Woodturning Design Magazine. IMHO, there should be no beginners category in the "Best of", though a beginner may happen upon a design and do a quality of work on that piece that surely can stand up to veterans. This should be a time when all pens are created equal.

Jjartwood said:
Just a thought,thru out this thread I keep hearing that these contest are designed for
different levels of penmaker.
What if each contest were designated as a level 1, level 2 ,level 3 and so on,
If level 3 is intended for a novice pen maker than a level 1 winner would be expected to
not compete as this would be unfair to the true level 3 participant or maybe be restricted to a single "open class",I think this would encourage the up start makers who are still developing their skill and style to take a run at the competitions.
Just a thought.
Mark
Click to expand...
 
I think I'm being misunderstood,THIS competition would be strictly a level 1 comp.
the bash may be a 2 or 3,I didn't mean different levels in each competition I meant different level competitions, in that a level would be assigned so the competitors would feel a little more confident knowing that their not going head to head with a "big gun "
there would be no changes other than letting other people know what the contest is geared to.
It may seem self explanatory, but I am just now getting what the difference in the competitions are.
I feel that I'm in over my head in this competition and am using it more as a learning experience but had I not entered this comp.I would have had no clue( not that I ever had a clue in the first place) of the intended end game of the different events.
There is an assumption of knowledge that people are aware of these things,you know like the idiot at the show that pulls your pen into two pieces and we assume that he/she were smart enough to try unscrewing the cap.
Like I said it was just a thought
 
One step further:
What if a pamphlet were to be put together and made available to the IAP members explaining the individual events, so for a $ I could purchase said pamphlet and have an outline of what events I could reasonably compete in as well as raise $ for the IAP Assoc.
(sometimes I amaze myself, I'm tellin ya)LOL.
Mark
 
I understand what a contest is about when I read the rules for entry on this and any other forum I read. That is enough to tell me if it is for me or not.
 
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